The Lemmygrad mod team has deliberated and decided that “patsocs”, especially those claiming the title such as Maupin, Hinckle, and Infrared, are hereby banned and are not welcome on lemmygrad.
This ban does not include those who feel some level of “patriotism” (for lack of a better word) for non-settler states ( namely those who have historically been victims of colonialism ).
Discussions surrounding the topics of settler-colonialism, and decolonization will always be allowed, as long as they don’t veer into the territory of defenses of colonialism, or affinity with colonizer over the colonized.
This includes:
- No apologia of settler-colonialism, or defenses of colonizer over the colonized. IE no defenses of Israelis over Palestinians, or European Settlers over indigenous americans fighting for the return of stolen lands.
- Please adhere to the Marxist-Leninist principle of Right of Nations to Self-Determination: especially holding true for indigeous peoples.
- Please adhere to the Marxist-Leninist principle of Proletarian Internationalism.
- No social-chauvinism, or opportunistic appeals to “conservative values” to win converts to socialism.
Here are some Marxist books / resources to learn more about Settler-Colonialism ( Audiobook torrents are linked as well )
- Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz - An indigenous people’s history of the US . audiobook
- Walter Rodney - How europe underdeveloped Africa . audiobook
- Zak Cope - Divided world divided class . audiobook
- Nick Estes - Red Nation Rising: From Bordertown Violence to Native Liberation
- J. Sakai - Settlers : The Mythology of the white proletariat . audiobook
- Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz - Not a nation of immigrants . audiobook
- Rashid Khalidi - The hundred years war on Palestine . audiobook
- Galeano - Open veins of latin america . audiobook
- Vincent Bevins - The Jakarta method . audiobook
- Fanon - The wretched of the earth . audiobook
- CLR James - The Black Jacobins . audiobook
Consider this a 4th of July present for any patsocs wanting to infiltrate Lemmygrad.
The wildest take from them was Zionist defense. I never knew, they believe things as silly as the Israeli working class is brainwashed into wanting free houses, they don’t really want them.
How patsocs must think it happens:
“Oh no, I’ve been duped into taking these 5 free acres of land! How did anyone brainwash me into doing this!! This is against my material interests!”
Things just haven’t been the same since apartheid ended in South Africa. It’s a good thing Israel is still doing one!
Nice, thx for this. archive.is link
Where are y’all running into these people? I see people who have opened discussion on how to possibly use existing American patriotism as a radicalization tool (I’m against it, but still understand why there are those that see some value in the idea). But I’m fortunate enough not to have run into any of these specifically terrible takes yet. Seriously, who the f are these “socialists” that support Israel?
I know that I am replying to a 2 year old comment but I think that these patsoc types have made more significant moves into spaces outside of their cultish beginnings (i.e., not being from the USA, “MAGA communism” only became apparent to me recently and I joined Lemmygrad because I was so frustrated with seeing “communist” channels on Telegram, for example, allowing this kind of shit and seeing one supposedly “ML” party from the UK (which as an aside I believe to be run by spooks) embrace the “ideology” and to essentially jump on the bandwagon in a truly grotesque, opportunistic move in a desire to be relevant and perhaps gain some new members. I can’t see any other justification for their actions. They make the excuse that the “MAGA” movement contains proletarian elements, which is true, but this is territory similar to suggesting that the “national socialists” contained proletarian elements, or the Union of Fascists of Britain and we saw how that played out. I reminded them that Stalin saw the “national socialists” for what they were before WW2 started, as did most communists I am sure, and also that one of the most significant moments in the history of the proletariat in 20th century England was the Battle of Cable Street, in which antifascists and ordinary members of the public came together to beat the shit out of Oswald Mosley’s thugs. Antifascism has been a longstanding current in Britain generally, and to see what is essentially a fascist movement being supported by “Marxist-Leninists” is a disgrace and should not be allowed.
But my main point is that they seemed to have spread. I was fooled into entering spaces before I realised that these movements were so significant. I have seen people discuss them as terminally online but the attempted “synthesis” (again, grotesque: apologies to Marx, Lenin and of course Hegel) of the Cult of Maga with “communism” is a potential danger which cannot be slept on. MAGA fascists were highly visible and helped to bring fascists out of the woodworks. It could well be that the “MAGA communists” do the same.
It seems to me that the whole thing is a psyop designed to discredit communist theory and “communists”, given the significant emergence of proletarians in the USA discovering Marxist/Marxist-Leninist theory over the last ten years or so. But I do believe that it has the potential to become a more significant threat to being a mere online cult of wackos that are likely being manipulated by some kind of COINTELPRO style psyop into accepting distorted ideas about communism.
It should be noted that I haven’t seen these people defend Israel but they do focus much energy on the proxy war in Ukraine and this was in part why I started to pay attention to some of the articles they put out, coming from places like The Grayzone, but they hardly seem to talk about Palestine at all, which is of course an international emergency requiring the attention of communists around the world as I write this. Also, my only exposure to this is via channels which proclaim to be “communist” but are indeed “patsocs” and who, in these channels, “defend” and promote “MAGA communism”, as I said, to the point that a self-proclaimed “Marxist-Leninist” party in my country jumping on this bandwagon (they are a very small party and are highly reactionary, especially on issues such as trans issues, but they claim to uphold an anti-revisionist line, yet are apparently funded by the state apparatus and I hear this from an old comrade who is approaching 90 and has heard and seen it all before. This party split from the original ML party of the Comintern due to revisionism in the main body of the party, which does have serious problems in itself. Anyway I am rambling).
On here. Literally yesterday. I wouldn’t have believed it either, it was pretty wild tbh.
Like SpaceCowboy said, there were a bunch of these people around here the past few days. If you weren’t there and aren’t seeing anything now that’s because the mods have removed their comments and banned the worst offenders. Look at the modlog if you want to know the details.
This isn’t anything I’ve learned from any patsocs, this is just my own reasoning.
Are they not brainwashed?
I’ve never lived in Israel, but I live in America, I’m a Palestinian American. I’ve spent much of my life hating Americans, especially the middle class and upwards. But over time I’ve seen them as victims too. Yes, they are given special treats from the ruling class, and I’d rather be miserable and helplessly brainwashed with a meal than be the same without a meal. But they suffer. They are isolated from reality, from compassion and comraderie, all of their friends and family and jobs and passions are poisonous black holes. They are human beings made into tools of evil by ruthless conditioning that starts when they are born and ends when they are dead, from every direction and facet of their life. They are not born motherfuckers, they are made that way.
If I applied this thinking to Israelis, this is not a “Zionist defense.”
This is not to say that I think the average American or Israeli etc. etc. gets a pass partaking in imperialism, colonialism, fascism et. al., or that I like them or would want to hang out with them, or that I would hesitate much to pull the trigger when the war heats up. I think the common persons of these entities does more than their fair share spreading misery and destruction…but they have been brainwashed to, conditioned to.
If this is all regarding stuff user SaddamHussein said I think you all are interpreting them in terrible bad faith.
The CIA is probably going to use patsocs to infiltrate marxist groups and distract the public.
Marxist parties in the U.S should hopefully start banning them soon.
They made this with Anarchists and SocDems. And literally the Frankfurt and French School of Critical Thinking were manufactured with the same intention.
Why in particular would the CIA use patsocs specifically?
By turning socialism into a “conservative-friendly” movement, they defang it and take away its revolutionary potential, and easily steer it to social chauvinist directions. There’s a long history of them doing this with labor movements, and this happened in almost every country going back to Lenin’s day.
This is why most of Marxism’s greatest works are polemics against social chauvinists / reactionary “socialists” ( state and rev, the renegade kautsky, reform or revolution, critique of the gotha programme ).
Reread the post text above.
Unless you’re a Patsoc as in Socialism with Patrick Star characteristics. Then you’re a valued member of this forum.
Obsessed with this image
Someone needs to re-write Langston Hughes’s Lenin poem but make it patrick.
That’s revisionism according to Maoists
I am an admin on Lemmygrad and I stand behind this message as well.
I have been wanting to share this so this seems like the thread to do it.
I am literally descended from a family which was given land multiple times over our history (a family member in every war since the french & indian war… until me) for fighting for the US as “patriots”… I know what the fuck I am talking about when I say that we shouldn’t be proud or embrace or normalize that shit. I have literally spent the last 10 years wrestling with this, and anyone who says that our history is compatible with leftist movements doesn’t know what they’re talking about. As it stands today in 2022, almost everything Americans think we know about our history is a lie to buttress the present system, and the patsocs are saying we can create socialism without dismantling the agreed upon lies of our dirty past… Fuck off, just not even in the right universe. The collective stories we tell ourselves about our past form the sky above our heads and provides us with the stars by which we understand and navigate our world. Alexander Nevsky was important to the USSR because he fought the Teutonic colonizers off. Imagine a world where the Teutonic Knights won, then 200 years later of genocidal teutonic rule, some german dude living in Russia is saying, “we don’t have to be ashamed of our teutonic knight forebears, they were actually tricked into invading.” Pure insanity.
Trying to coddle the conscience/psyche of the average white american at the expense of acknowledging the humanity and the material realities of the natives and other POC is irreconcileable with Marxism. At the core of liberalism lies dehumanization.
Overall, it just felt like some of the patsoc/and their defenders were being deliberately obtuse in refusing to internalize the data many people on here were patiently offering them time after time. There is an arrogance of trying to tell american socialists how our country really works from abroad. I would never take the liberty to explain something like that to MLs from other nationalities. I think there were definitely some things lost in a lack of defining the concepts being discussed, but also a lot of baiting and bad faith discussions and overall very little dialectical analysis. I actually think a couple of those accounts were pushing a similarly deliberately divisive “pro-russia at the expense of any analysis” line that was annoying as hell some months ago. In fact, I think that was largely an artificial divide - people being like “wait, can someone explain why Russia isn’t imperialist for the 80th time this week?” and then in the comments - “Fuck you russia can do no wrong”… just out of place on here imo.
All that to say: I agree.
Edit: also, I repeatedly saw things like, “this is dividing our community” and it wasn’t, it was like 5 accounts who were trying to steer the opinions of everyone else on this specific topic
Also also, Puritanical/protestant racism weaponized by capitalists is a cancer that must be excised from the american psyche (maybe still a bit present in the UK, idk) or there will be no peace for anyone else. It is deliberately kept alive, requiring great effort as it is not natural in the proletariat imo, as it is extremely useful.
LG admin here to say patriotism for countries like Palestine, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. is acceptable as they were colonized by invaders and “patriotism” for those countries is solidarity with indigenous and local populations and their ways of life, however patriotism for countries like the US, the UK, most of Europe, etc. is not and can not be acceptable, because to be “patriotic” for them you must accept the rape, murder, and theft of the indigenous populations they invaded.
Until the US comes under a red banner, American Patriotism will only stand as an acceptance of the manifest destiny pillaging of Natives, the Jim Crow laws that still in certain ways exist today, the recent overturning of Abortion, etc. Marxism and patriotism for the US are like oil and water, and those who try to mix the two have no business here.
As soon as I learned the most basic beginnings of the Labor Aristocracy, a year or so ago, I competely dropped any semblance of patriotism dwelling inside of me. It made me think, why should our proletariat of the first world take priority over the third world’s exploitation which in most cases is more exploitative, more dangerous, and grants less individual and mass freedoms. And obviously the first world proletariat works hard and they absolutely must be freed, but not at the expense of the third world. Sweden is a decent example. They (not for covid) care about wages and benefits and good stuff like that, but ask them about helping Africa or something and you’ll hear nothing. USA is a great example of the unequal order of labor. The Oil Workers benefit from putting pipelines through indigenous lands. It’s cheapest to put the pipeline on a straight path, in some cases right thru indigenous land, thus needing less construction to reroute and profit is higher. Let’s say that the oil company(humor me for a sec) increases wages because of the massive profits. What we see is the indigenous community being subjugated and tosses to the side for the benefit of the 1st world proletariat. PatSoc can come off as correct when talking about wanting higher wages and better representation, but it’s like the Sex Trade in the fact that when you, the proletarian, have your interests lined up with that of your industry(the petrol industry for “protection of jobs against Climate initiatives” or pimps and johns for “legalization/legitimacy of sex work”) you will be tricked into supporting policies that do not help you but your boss or customers.
This is an honest question:
How quickly do you get banned? I wouldn’t like misinformed people getting kicked out straight away without giving them the chance to debate and learn.
So do they get banned straight away or do they get a chance (given that their statements aren’t completely mental)?
We don’t ban quickly, and if we do, its almost always temp bans, and usually with a warning, which we gave in this case too.
These patsoc threads lasted for days, even though we were warned about a few users in particular months ago.
Of course we’ll never ban anyone trying to learn about this topic.
I would also like to know this, and also if the bans in this particular case are permanent or temporary.
Well well well… 🤔
Nice. 😏
As a cracker settler… Nice.
This was a critically important move as the PatSocs here were using our communities to platform some of the most insidious rhetoric I’ve seen in a long time. I have no doubt that the recent surge in Patriotic Socialism is connected with Western propaganda bodies. It’s particularly telling that not only were they present arguments that would lead to the US becoming another “National Socialist”/openly fascist state, but that they were also heavily invested in the idea that Europeans were allowed to be Pat Socs because they weren’t on Turtle Island.
The fact that this also was coming to head just as the US is seeing Proud Boys activity increasing is also one of those “coincidences don’t exist” feelings.
Patsocs are the new Frankfurters. They are basically the same shit, just adjusted to current context.
This is the way to go. Thank you for making your position clear and for citing bibliography and sources as well <3
Awesome! I understand the idea(s) behind trying to use “patriotism” to get the flag waving masses that love the US. But I feel that it is too much about trying to appeal to conservatives and conservative values. Which has always seemed counter productive. Conservatism is literally the enemy of us evolving into a new state of society. Conservatives are focused on rolling things back and do everything possible to not learn new things, or to understand/care about why minority groups (race/sex/gender/etc) should have the same liberties as they do. We wouldn’t need special laws and shit if the conservatives (and the moderates that constantly care about offending the conservatives or otherwise rocking the boat) were already treating them as “normal” or whatever.
They also get too excited and proud of past “victories” of the US. Of which they refuse to except that much of said “victories” were lies or at least super exaggerated into whitewashed tall tales. Preferring to lash out at actual critical focus on lies told or the factual fucked up shit that was done. The “civil war was actually about states’ rights” crowd shouldn’t ever be pandered to.
Those that are ready to truly walk down the hard but vitally necessary path of self-criticism of the past in order to work to something better are the ones that should be embraced. Building to something that is worth being proud of is where that “patriotic” energy should be used for. But it should be kept at a friendly and spirited manor (like cheering for your Olympic team type shit). But not to the point of victory of the nation at the expense of others. Conservatism is just as much a threat as the liberal idealism that has replaced monarchies of the past.
Also the Patsocs are kind of scary quick to start using MAGA chud put downs and just completely stop trying to build understanding. Unironically just start getting loud and calling people “cuck removed” and shit. I can’t take anyone serious when they start going on some hard “machismo” nonsense. That shit is nothing but hate and would better serve the fascist groups. I imagine that many of them will just show up on hard-right media with stories about how they “used to be a communist/socialist before they realized how much better the hard-right actually is”. Jumping on the very lucrative grift stuff we have seen for decades.
I gotta say all this feels like a big win
Spaniard here. Giving this issue of patsocs, I am obligated to bring the petition to ban every sign of patriotism regarding Spain and specially if talking about the past, and also if mixed with catholic paraphernalia. Trust me, those are irredeemable signs of literal fascism. Example, the fucking scumbag of Santiago Armesilla.
Santiago Armesilla has produced quite important works where he synthesizes the philosophical materialism of the philosopher Gustavo Bueno with the dialectical materialism of Marx. Beyond that, you are absolutely right.
He has always defended Spanish imperialism and has justified on many occasions the deplorable acts committed by the Spanish empire. And not only that. He is, as you rightly comment, a sympathizer of the conservative and Catholic parties in Spain and he’s also transphobic.
When I really seen his true colors, was when some 5 years ago or so, Catalans where campaigning for independence, and made a popular referendum in which, literally, I shit you not, okay? In a Looney Toons Cruiser like ten thousand of military police went to Catalonia, all hight as fuck of snorting coke, almost everyone being tattooed with Nazi paraphernalia, to smash catalanists. Of course, the movement went nowhere, since only a socialist movement will in any way will emancipate this nation, but they literally had a “white card” to go and do bonehead/nazi raids on the streets to pass time during the nights.
And that motherfucking asshole went like “good”.
My balls dropped.
What’s his story? Is he a reactionary socialist, or maybe a catholic dominionist?
TL;DR a nazbol, but instead of nazi, it’s NatCath.
He’s a self claimed communist that’s a reactionary, spanish imperialism apologist, and even declared himself as “atheist catholic”, which basically means “I don’t believe in God but “Land, Patriotism and God(” Tierra, Patria y Dios” are the Francoist/Fascist motto)", and ideologically defended the settlements on Morocco, Catalonia and Euskadi+Navarra.
He was the main reason that the PCOE had to have a purge, being him purged. (note: I may be confusing PCOE with PCPE, which as you can see, have very simmilar names).
This is sure material for the “how it’s going” meme.
Good riddance.
