The last time I was dating someone, she texted me to ask if we were still on for our date the next day. I replied with a thumbs up emoji and some additional text saying I was excited about seeing her again.
When we got together for the date, she asked if I was mad at her about something. I didn’t understand, so I asked why she would think that. She explained that the thumbs up emoji is used as a passive aggressive insult now.
👍
Weird, I use that frequently
Reading in emotions to text to such an extent that normal punctuation is seen as a negative is rather juvenile.
Where I live Hahaha is kind of sarcastic and rude, ahahaha is like a cool and sincere lol.
What general location is this??
Germany
Figures
🙂 is only sent by psychopaths who are already planning out your murder
If absolutely necessary use 🙃 or 🤗 instead
Upside down smiley is used as like a smile-through-the-pain, everything is fucked kind of reaction, similar to melty smiley. Similarly the blushing smiley is usually deployed ironically. Or maybe my friends are just really sarcastic haha
Hm interesting, I’ve seen 🫠 used for what you describe. Here people only use 🙃 when they really want to send a simple smile emoji for some reason.
What’s the blushing smiley?
I still send =), =D, and =P.
I’ll just go ahead and get in my coffin now.
Oh I should totally start reusing these! Thanks =D
Damn how old is the average Lemmy user? The amount of people (allegedly) using and expecting perfect punctuation when texting scares me. I never put periods after one-liners except for nuance and if someone else does it looks weird. Depends on the person obviously, for example when my mom texts me I know I shouldnt put much thought into such details.
When my mom texts me, she signs every message lol.
-NotMyOldRedditName
My parents or rarely messaged folks precede a message by “Hey [my name],
<br>(Actual message content)”.It kinda tilts me as it’s a chat and not an email and I dislike the mixing of those two medium
I assume we’re all over 40.
Seems weird to me too, I first started texting around 2005 when I finally got a cell phone. When I saw full punctuation I felt like I was getting scolded.
Anyone holding this view can get in the sea
Equally moronic as saying the letter “e” is passive aggressive
If you insist on interpreting my use of punctuation in a text as anything other than an effort to communicate clearly, I’m likely to start being passive aggressive at some point.
There’s actually a name for people who perceive proper punctuation as being passive aggressive. They’re called “morons.”
Edit: in the name of further research I asked my wife, who is a non-punctuation texter, what she thought about this. Here’s what I got.
Results of Conversation with Mrs. jubilationtcornpone
Me: “If someone sent you a message that had a period at the end, would you think they were angry with you?”
Her: “Like now? No. When I was younger? Yes.”
Me: “Why would you think that when you were younger?”
Her: “Hmmm. I don’t really know. I guess because women tend to read between the lines, even if there’s nothing there. And because people like to have something to complain about and little miscommunications are an easy target.”
Me: “Ok. So why doesn’t it bother you now?”
Her: “Probably because I met you and you always use punctuation. You know <mutual friends husband>? She knows when he’s mad at her just based on specific words he uses in texts or just the way he says something.”
Me: “So if you start using punctuation, I should be concerned?”
Her: “Like if I say “I’m fine.” With a period and everything?”
Me: “Yes.”
Her: “Yeah. That means I’m not fine.”
Me: “That’s a lot of pressure to put on a period.”
Her: “True.”
Me: “But you already know I’m going to infer nothing from that. I probably won’t even notice.”
Her: “Yeah. I know. That’s why l would just tell you.”
Me: “Fair enough.”
Her: “You’re just one of those people who says exactly what they mean. There’s no cryptic message or anything.”
Me: “That’s what I’m talking about!”
Her: “It is kind of nice actually.”
What is “proper punctuation”? Isn’t it context dependent?
Not every instance of written language is written in complete sentences.
A sign that says “SALE” is normal, but a sign that says “Sale.” would be unusual, maybe some kind of marketing or design choice.
Social convention around IMs and chat rooms in the early versions of live chat, in the 90’s, capitalization and punctuation were not ordinarily used. Multiple sentences per message were also not the norm.
Text messages have always been somewhere between 90’s style IMs (uncapitalized and unpunctuated phrases, not full sentences) and a full email message (full salutations and signatures). The convention depends on the context, and autocorrect has changed what is or isn’t normal.
So a text message response that says “that’s fine” conveys a distinct message from one that says “That’s fine.”
That’s how human communication works. Trying to start every text message with “Dear Jake,” and ending it with “Sincerely, Raymond Holt” would be weird.
That weirdness is, of course, the whole joke about Holt starting and ending his texts that way.
At the end of the day, despite my spending way too much time in this thread defending the mandatory use of periods, I have to admit that it doesn’t really matter how you write a text to your friends.
But proper grammar is important when you need to communicate clearly with a large audience who might not be aware of the colloquialisms and informal conventions you’re used to and it’s better to have a strict system of rules to make sure everyone can understand. Which is why primary and secondary schools teach the English language and an overall decline in literacy is cause for concern.
So yeah, context is important, but there are many contexts where proper grammar is required.
No, they’re called people who know how to write, as the point of writing is to communicate ideas and emotions, not to be a pedant about ever changing rules.
The rule hasn’t changed.
There may be an informal convention among some people that using a period at the end of the last sentence in a text is passive aggressive, but it’s far from universal and far from being a rule.
Seems like it’s just as pedantic to expect people who have habitually used correct punctuation for decades to adopt this convention without ever being told and then blaming them for not abandoning an immensely useful part of written language for no apparent reason.
Idk, but this definitely isn’t new. I’m 31 and have been removing periods from texts for a decade to help convey tone. It’s like how women use (over use?) exclamation points in emails, because periods come across as aggressive and curt. The same is true in text, but instead of exclamation points, I’m able to just leave a sentence without punctuation so it doesn’t come across as angry, annoyed, or frank.
This has been well documented for a long time, but true media literacy dictates you try to ignore these rules in texts from Gen X and Boomers, otherwise they’re going to come across as very rude over text with their periods and ellipses.
You eventually restated my point. It’s a convention used among a portion of the population, documented in articles and studies, but not taught or a part of formal grammar.
At some point a set of fairly strict rules is important for a written language, as your point with Gen X and Boomers helps to illustrate, because it makes sure you can be understood by a broader audience when clarity is required. Punctuation is a fundamental part of that.
Omitting periods in text is a technilogical colloquialism. I’m not arguing that. But that doesn’t mean, as the poster that I first replied to implied, that people who omit periods from texts are the only ones who “know how to write”.
Over-use of exclamation points is another poor habit, since they can mark something that’s important regardless of it being a positive or negative. With quoted speech it could be something that’s either angry or joyful. Using them to convey a non-threatening tone shouldn’t be required. I get that it is in some cases, and I belive that indicates a problem with our overall literacy and a renewed misogyny in the workplace.
Whether this is a result of the medium of communication or a decline in literacy is up for debate, but word choice and context should do the bulk of conveying tone and relying on punctuation for that purpose understandably looks like an indicator of poor literacy.
At some point a set of fairly strict rules is important for a written language
Given that English has become the lingua franca without having a strict set of rules, reality would say otherwise. If a strict set of rules was that important then French would be the most commonly used language.
Over-use of exclamation points is another poor habit, since they can mark something that’s important regardless of it being a positive or negative. With quoted speech it could be something that’s either angry or joyful. Using them to convey a non-threatening tone shouldn’t be required. I get that it is in some cases, and I belive that indicates a problem with our overall literacy and a renewed misogyny in the workplace.
You realize that its just you who’s having problems? You are claiming that other people have literacy problems, when they communicate with each other just fine, and it’s you who are struggling to communicate effectively. They are not having problems with being misinterpreted, just you are.
Whether this is a result of the medium of communication or a decline in literacy is up for debate, but word choice and context should do the bulk of conveying tone and relying on punctuation for that purpose understandably looks like an indicator of poor literacy.
No, people insist on strict rules so that they don’t have to change or learn new things, and can blame other people when they communicate poorly. The English language constantly changes, and authors constantly break the “rules” that your elementary school teacher taught you to effectively communicate ideas. That has literally always been the case, from Shakespeare, through Cormack McCarthy, to the past several decades of online communication.
You seem to think a centralized style and grammar book like the French have is the only way to have strict set of grammatical rules.
An overwhelming number of English textbooks and stylebooks agree on the use of a period. We’re not talking about something esoteric here, it’s how you end a sentence. Omitting them is poor writing. Claiming artistic licence or understandability doesn’t change that in the vast majority of cases. I’m not calling those who omit them baby-killers or anything. It’s just poor writing that people have grown accustomed to seeing.
Writers like McCarthy, Twain, and Joyce have the chops to communicate exceptionally well despite breaking these rules, not just because they broke them. The people in the office next to yours mangling emails don’t.
And literacy rates are on the decline in the US. Take that however you will.
The rule hasn’t changed.
Can you point me to this institution that decides on the rules of the English language? What’s it’s address? Where does it publish these rules?
There may be an informal convention among some people that using a period at the end of the last sentence in a text is passive aggressive, but it’s far from universal and far from being a rule.
It is a natural result of reading both versions, noticing that one sounds more formal and has a sharp ending, and noticing that since you can write either one, if they’re ending it sharply they must be doing so intentionally. If you use the full availability of communication options available, it inherently sends that signal, if you follow rules for the sake of following rules though, then it limits that option so doesn’t send that signal.
Seems like it’s just as pedantic to expect people who have habitually used correct punctuation for decades to adopt this convention without ever being told and then blaming them for not abandoning an immensely useful part of written language for no apparent reason.
You had literally decades to adjust and change, this isn’t new, it’s been the case since at least the early 00s when cell phones and instant messengers became a thing.
Literally, read a fucking book.
You learned this shit at school. Did you think your teacher was making it up on the fly?
At school they teach you common rules of thumb for the English language, and formal writing styles for communicating in academic settings. Famously, and unlike French, the English language does not have hard set rules, and book writers constantly break the ones you’re taught in elementary school to more effectively communicate their ideas, or speak in a desired voice.
If somone struggles to understand what someone else means if they use proper punctuation, that sounds like illiteracy.
If someone struggles with understanding context, they are probably a sea beast.
Suck. My. Dick.
I think it is honestly really pathetic that so many of you claim to love language and yet what you really love is having a rigid form of interaction that you can shame people for not perfectly following or reacting intuitively to.
Language is ALWAYS a negotiation, if you dismiss people that interpret your sentences without a period as passive-aggressive, YOU are the one that loses because you have undermined the basic premise of communicating with others in favor of the comforting idea that there are a perfect set of unchanging abstract rules that can be applied to communication that delineate a “correct” way to do things.
There are no rules to language, language is not decided by a committee, language is a living breathing thing that does not give a fuck about your condescending attempt to lock it in stone and direct it towards being used as a tool to shame others with.
You don’t get to decide what people react to and don’t react to in your language.
If people react poorly to correct grammar that’s on them not me.
Oddly enough, I don’t claim to really love language for the sake of language, but it’s pretty useful in my day to day so I try to use it well. I like your post, so, in the spirit of negotiation let’s use the term baseline instead of rules.
The bulk of educational and informational works on the English language gives us a kind of baseline for our written language. When someone deviates from that baseline, most of the time we can still understand them because we can see how it differs and can infer their intent based on context and that baseline.
The dictionaries, style guides, and grammar texts that give us our baseline exist to facilitate written communication, not stifle it. They’re the result of hundreds of years of these kinds of negotiations, not just arbitrary choice as so many people claim. Good grammar isn’t just a cudgel to beat the creativity out of kids, it’s the benefit of centuries worth of experience and study. Just as new ideas shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, we also shouldn’t disregard past practice simply on the basis of it’s age.
Baselines do change. But it’s a slow process, not every popular new deviation will stand the test of time, and many antique forms are still present in our modern language. Think of it like scientific progress. Some ideas are validated by experimentation, others are proven wrong. Our understanding of the universe is more complex now than centuries ago, but there are still numerous constants that have been proven time after time. Our language has grown more complex too, but that doesn’t mean that some very old ideas about how to communicate in writing aren’t still useful today.
But you’re very, very right about shame and reactions, and I’d be dishonest not to admit that. It’s too easy for armchair grammarians to treat language as if it exists in a logic vacuum separate from human emotion, and that’s simply not the case.
Omitting a period from a text isn’t a crime, I freely admit that I’m often a grumpy old asshole about this sort of thing when I shouldn’t be, and you’re 100% correct that people shouldn’t be shamed over it.
At the same time, the reverse is also true. Not every plea for punctuation and grammar is creative or ideological tyranny, and if some people react poorly to a text that omits punctuation, that’s not something the author has a say in either.
At any rate, I hope this comes of as intended, a genuine, if overly lengthy explanation from someone who supports the widespread use of punctuation, and not just Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud. =)
I agree so much and I love it. I love texting. I love adjusting my language and tone to fit the social setting I am in. Or break it on purpose. And it’s so incredible that just by texting a person you’ve just recently made contact with you can find out soo much about their social setting, life, their circles and beliefs and attitudes. The closer I get to people the more memes and stickers I use to communicate. And usually by their choice of memes and stickers tell me a lot about them too.
Language is amazeballs. I sincerely hope that when my daughter grows up she will be able to switch to the most insane gibberish that will sound like random ass code to me when talking to her friends. And hopefully switch back to be understandable when talking with me.
Yes! Preach! Same with new words. Every generation gets angry with the next generation using new words but you don’t get to decide how I use words. I will adhere to certain rules so we can keep understanding each other but all the members of the commission will have to be willing to rewrite the rules if the language has changed.
Saving this for the next time I could you use scathing takedown.
As the other person says it’s the same with new words and people looking down on the next generation like theirs didn’t do the same. I love that language evolves, always something to learn. Better than shouting at clouds, which should be Lemmy’s tagline.
Thank you! It’s sad this comment is so far down. This has been one of the most confusing group of responses I’ve read on the fediverse so far. So many angry and unmovable people who sound like they don’t communicate with humans.
Uh, just in general, people tend to react horrifically to long messages, ‘walls of text’.
… even on discussion boards, like here on lemmy, or as a first intro message to someone on some kind of dating app/site.
I’ve been using the internet since the mid 90s.
It did not used to be like this.
People thought of messages as letters, like emails.
Now, a lot of people will get viscerally angry or disgusted in basically nearly any digital context if you send a message that’s longer than roughly double the original Twitter character limit.
Hooray for normalizing slogans and soundbites in lieu of actual discourse, hooray for kicking off the trend of destroying our collective capacity to read multiple paragraphs at a time, great job Dorsey.
This is even bleeding over into professional email. I’ve noticed that if I send more than a few paragraphs, the recipient won’t actually read any of it.
I’ve taken to highlighting the important things, so they’ll at least feel like they can reliably skim.
I have had multiple VPs ask me complex, technical questions, and then I write them a complex, explanatory answer…
And the reply that I get back includes them literally just saying ‘I didn’t read anything that would have required me to scroll.’
These were boomers.
Fuck, man, ok, at that point, you’re just asking a question to waste my time, apparently?
I’m not gonna dumb down concepts that can’t be dumbed down and still meaningfully answer the question.
I was hired here because I have specialized skills, if you’re too stupid to understand them, maybe realize that good leadership is more about knowing when to defer to your trusted experts, than it is about feeling like you are in total control and understanding of everything, all the time.
It really is no wonder why the entire economy is collapsing, the elites really are just pantomiming a caricature of having a job, doing a job, being an important person.
We’ve 'boys club’d and nepotism’d our way into mass executive incompetence.
I learned early on that I should only ask one question per text or email. Every boss and project manager I’ve had has been seemingly unable to answer more than one question at a time.
I think I’ll start using your method when explaining things.
Now you’ve got me wondering when tldr became a thing on the internet
to the best of my memory, at least in my experience, i think it originated on, or perhaps was popularized on early reddit, like, pre 2010, perhaps earlier in other forums?
i guess i would not be surprised if it actually originated on tumblr and then made its way to reddit, but yeah, i think i remember it basically ‘becoming a thing’ roughly around 2008ish? On reddit?
Ah fuck, apparently its first recorded usage was on usenet in 2002.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL%3BDR
I may have been using the internet since the 90s, but I also was under the age of 10 for most of the 90s, so… yeah I did not exactly know as much about usenet, as say… gamefaqs, and neopets lol.
Many people are only semi literate. This cuts two ways- many people struggle with reading longer text, but they also struggle with composing longer text.
I’ve generally worked in tech with rather educated people, but even there the lower portion of their writing skills can be disappointing. Like, a low grade for English Composition 101. Now, remember that most people don’t have even that much training, and don’t practice on their own in ways that encourage (what’s traditionally considered) good writing.
I think this is part of why some people love chatgpt. They’re poor at writing, and now there’s a tool that purports to fix that problem without all the pesky work of practicing and learning.
ChatGPT also dramatically worsens the problem.
It just does the writing and reading for you.
So you then just… never develop any actual reading or writing skills.
Its turning people into something akin to zombies, more or less. Either that or maybe just trying to think of it as some new kind of addiction or mental disability would be a more apt comparison?
I… its baffling, I can barely comprehend how significant and widespread this problem is… when I was in elementary school, I finished assignments and such so fast, with such frequency, that I would get assigned to go out into the hallway and help other kids who were struggling with reading skills, I’d help them read through books, sound out words, explain what they mean.
Thats my point of reference here, I’m back in 2nd grade, helping (probably dyslexic) 4th graders learn how to read.
So you then just… never develop any actual reading or writing skills.
This is one of the scary parts, yes. Reading and writing are fundamental skills that will atrophy if not practiced. Combined with anti-intellectualism, where people fundamentally do not value reading and writing skills, it’s pretty nasty.
I don’t know how to fix it. It’s a gap in values. I often find myself wondering about the people around me, “Why don’t you care?” I don’t know why they don’t care about things.
Why don’t they care?
… The reliance on machines to do their thinking has more or less made them into actual NPCs.
First it was the combined effect of all of the media machines of capitalism, providing so many distractions and distortions.
Now… its much more direct, formidable, capable… total.
Just go look into the number of people who’ve killed themselves or others after more or less being goaded or gaslit into by… their only friend, ChatGPT.
Its realworld cyberpsychosis, from Cyberpunk 2077.
It’s very in line with Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves To Death and the idea that the medium itself shapes communication and public discourse.
People seem not just unwilling, but at times unable to tolerate any sort of discussion that’s long enough to get into the real nuance of an issue. Postman blamed the news, especially TV news, and an over reliance on TV/Video as means to convey information (though he actually supported TV as entertainment). But he also cautioned against the risk centralizing what he referred to then as “computing” in a way that seem to almost prophesize what’s currently happening with social media and AI.
It was like this in the early 00s, you may just have rose coloured glasses.
People thought of messages as letters, like emails.
On IRC and ICQ and AIM? No, lowercase phrases without punctuation was the norm for short messages.
Text messages are closer to those old short messages (hence the name “short message service”) than to email.
Well no, IM has generally always defaulted to a norm of much shorter messages.
But… fairly lengthy forum posts?
Yeah, that used to be pretty common.
And it used to be normal that if someone posted ‘I ain’t readin’ all that’, they would be mocked.
Now, its the reverse.
And also… yeah I am still baffled by people whose response to … an introduction message, on some kind of dating app/site… is to just laugh at how long it is.
… I’d used OKCupid in its early days.
Generally?
If you took the time to actually read someone’s profile, and… write something, based on shared interests… that was … a good thing to do.
Shows that you actually care.
Now? Try to do the same thing?
Apparently people can’t comprehend that an initial, long, introduction message, does not mean that all other messages will necessarily be as long, unless you explicitly tell people this.
I keep encountering this kind of behavior.
And I’m just doing the same thing I’ve been doing for … almost 2 decades?
Like… for the record, it has ‘worked’ to at least some extent, I’ve had multiple year+ relationships that started from doing that…
Just seems like more and more people are having a hostile response to a lengthy intro.
I’ll thumbs up when I like what you’ve said. That’s why the “like” button on every platform is a thumbs up symbol.
You never have to worry about me being passive aggressive and you’ll fucking know when I’m being aggressive.
The like button is the dumbest fucking shit
ACK
SYN
I’m 42, for context.
When I get the thumb from someone on a text it feels totally dismissive. I don’t feel that way about likes on forums or wherever.
Perhaps related, but when communicating over the radio (including via digital printing modes like RTTY) you have to declare that you’re done transmitting and yield the frequency to the other party. This is because your signal may fade, appearing to the other person like you stopped transmitting. This is the purpose of the ubiquitous “over” seen in movies and TV, though in ham circles you use the more casual “go ahead” or “back to you”.
I imagine a period sends the same message, but because you don’t have to manage turn-taking with texts the way you do on the radio the period can be seen as redundant because they already know you’re done speaking. So sending a period may seem like you’re emphasizing the finality of your message.
In radio, you signal the end of a contact (QSO) with “out”, but again, in ham circles you just say “73”.
Is any of this relevant? I have no idea I’ve been up since 1 AM this morning.
This is a stupid rule and I do not use it. Sometimes I write something, add a period, and then decide not to write the next sentence. The period should not be interpreted as a secret message.
It does convey a certain finality
It just does.
I guess I’m a bit old-fashioned. I still put two spaces after a full stop.
But I digress. The question was about other unwritten rules of texting. Over the past year, it’s become frowned upon at my company (a multinational with around 130k employees) to use the default yellow emoticons. People are gently reminded to use the colour that most closely resembles their skin. This is for conversations over Teams and Slack.
My mom uses the white smiley faces and I always feel like they are vaguely racist.
I have conflicted feelings about it.
On one hand, I can see how in some circles it could be some sort of racist dog whistle, but on the other hand when a lot of people are using other skin tones and it’s mostly white people using yellow, it feels almost like default = white, and using the white skin tone pushes back on that a little.
Two spaces as a convention is due to the monospaced fonts in typewriters.
If you aren’t using a monospaced font it’s typographically awkward.
That’s where I learned to type, and the double-space is so ingrained in my muscle memory I can’t get rid of it. I also used to use lower case “L” for the number one, and upper case “O” for zero. I don’t do the former, but occasionally I catch myself doing the latter.
I was taught double space after a period. I did it for almost 20 years until I forced myself to change.
😹
