• ceoofanarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    1 month ago

    Yep according to them every hunger related death under a communist government is communists fault but the many famines under capitalism don’t count against their favorite system.

    • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 month ago

      Failures in communist countries are systemic issues, failures in capitalist countries are individual failures.

      • MoonMelon@lemmy.ml
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        1 month ago

        Also failure of public works, like a train crash that kills 20 people, means that trains are bad. Clearly this program isn’t working and should be privatized. But 20 people killed daily on the highways, well those people are just idiots. Never mind the structural issues.

        This message brought to you by the people who stand to benefit and also, by coincidence, own the newspapers.

    • RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz
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      1 month ago

      I wonder if it would be fairer to count all of them from both sides or have some more selective metric, though that cab be pretty hard to create

      • MeowZedong@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 month ago

        You might be getting closer with that, but this still doesn’t account for the deaths caused by the fallout of decisions under feudal or capitalist systems before switching to communism that took years to repair or deaths caused by imperialist meddling (sanctions, wars, coups).

    • Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 month ago

      Recent years have seen a resurgence in nostalgia for the British empire. High-profile books such as Niall Ferguson’s Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World, and Bruce Gilley’s The Last Imperialist, have claimed that British colonialism brought prosperity and development to India and other colonies. Two years ago, a YouGov poll found that 32 percent of people in Britain are actively proud of the nation’s colonial history.

      This rosy picture of colonialism conflicts dramatically with the historical record. According to research by the economic historian Robert C Allen, extreme poverty in India increased under British rule, from 23 percent in 1810 to more than 50 percent in the mid-20th century. Real wages declined during the British colonial period, reaching a nadir in the 19th century, while famines became more frequent and more deadly. Far from benefitting the Indian people, colonialism was a human tragedy with few parallels in recorded history.

      Experts agree that the period from 1880 to 1920 – the height of Britain’s imperial power – was particularly devastating for India. Comprehensive population censuses carried out by the colonial regime beginning in the 1880s reveal that the death rate increased considerably during this period, from 37.2 deaths per 1,000 people in the 1880s to 44.2 in the 1910s. Life expectancy declined from 26.7 years to 21.9 years.

      In a recent paper in the journal World Development, we used census data to estimate the number of people killed by British imperial policies during these four brutal decades. Robust data on mortality rates in India only exists from the 1880s. If we use this as the baseline for “normal” mortality, we find that some 50 million excess deaths occurred under the aegis of British colonialism during the period from 1891 to 1920.

      Fifty million deaths is a staggering figure, and yet this is a conservative estimate. Data on real wages indicates that by 1880, living standards in colonial India had already declined dramatically from their previous levels. Allen and other scholars argue that prior to colonialism, Indian living standards may have been “on a par with the developing parts of Western Europe.” We do not know for sure what India’s pre-colonial mortality rate was, but if we assume it was similar to that of England in the 16th and 17th centuries (27.18 deaths per 1,000 people), we find that 165 million excess deaths occurred in India during the period from 1881 to 1920.

      While the precise number of deaths is sensitive to the assumptions we make about baseline mortality, it is clear that somewhere in the vicinity of 100 million people died prematurely at the height of British colonialism. This is among the largest policy-induced mortality crises in human history. It is larger than the combined number of deaths that occurred during all famines in the Soviet Union, Maoist China, North Korea, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, and Mengistu’s Ethiopia.

      How did British rule cause this tremendous loss of life? There were several mechanisms. For one, Britain effectively destroyed India’s manufacturing sector. Prior to colonisation, India was one of the largest industrial producers in the world, exporting high-quality textiles to all corners of the globe. The tawdry cloth produced in England simply could not compete. This began to change, however, when the British East India Company assumed control of Bengal in 1757.

      According to the historian Madhusree Mukerjee, the colonial regime practically eliminated Indian tariffs, allowing British goods to flood the domestic market, but created a system of exorbitant taxes and internal duties that prevented Indians from selling cloth within their own country, let alone exporting it.

      This unequal trade regime crushed Indian manufacturers and effectively de-industrialised the country. As the chairman of East India and China Association boasted to the English parliament in 1840: “This company has succeeded in converting India from a manufacturing country into a country exporting raw produce.” English manufacturers gained a tremendous advantage, while India was reduced to poverty and its people were made vulnerable to hunger and disease.

      To make matters worse, British colonisers established a system of legal plunder, known to contemporaries as the “drain of wealth.” Britain taxed the Indian population and then used the revenues to buy Indian products – indigo, grain, cotton, and opium – thus obtaining these goods for free. These goods were then either consumed within Britain or re-exported abroad, with the revenues pocketed by the British state and used to finance the industrial development of Britain and its settler colonies – the United States, Canada and Australia.

      This system drained India of goods worth trillions of dollars in today’s money. The British were merciless in imposing the drain, forcing India to export food even when drought or floods threatened local food security. Historians have established that tens of millions of Indians died of starvation during several considerable policy-induced famines in the late 19th century, as their resources were syphoned off to Britain and its settler colonies.

      Get instant alerts and updates based on your interests. Be the first to know when big stories happen. Yes, keep me updated Colonial administrators were fully aware of the consequences of their policies. They watched as millions starved and yet they did not change course. They continued to knowingly deprive people of resources necessary for survival. The extraordinary mortality crisis of the late Victorian period was no accident. The historian Mike Davis argues that Britain’s imperial policies “were often the exact moral equivalents of bombs dropped from 18,000 feet.”

      Our research finds that Britain’s exploitative policies were associated with approximately 100 million excess deaths during the 1881-1920 period. This is a straightforward case for reparations, with strong precedent in international law. Following World War II, Germany signed reparations agreements to compensate the victims of the Holocaust and more recently agreed to pay reparations to Namibia for colonial crimes perpetrated there in the early 1900s. In the wake of apartheid, South Africa paid reparations to people who had been terrorised by the white-minority government.

      History cannot be changed, and the crimes of the British empire cannot be erased. But reparations can help address the legacy of deprivation and inequity that colonialism produced. It is a critical step towards justice and healing.

      By Dylan Sullivan and Jason Hickel.

      • redhilsha@lemmy.ml
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        1 month ago

        About two years ago, I had an argument with a random dude who was vehemently denying the fact that it was effectively Churchill and the decisions of the British government that caused the Bengal famine - there was a lot of back and forth, a lot of citing.

        Ultimately he came to the conclusion that the famine happened not because of the British, no Churchill was a saint - it was because of lack of biological “food storage” within Bengalis or some bullshit.

  • 🍉 Albert 🍉@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Liberals crying about the death toll from communism, when said made up number includes Nazis killed in the Easter theatre.

    Liberals mourning nazis out of sheer ignorance seems telling

  • p3n@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    The difference is that for the people dying under capitalism, the system is working as intended, and for the people dying under communism, it is not. In both cases, the leaders don’t really care, because it works for them.

    • KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      When you lift out millions out of poverty and increase life expectancy significantly it’s the communist leaders not caring. The more you know

      • p3n@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Yes, because it is never comes at their own expense through self-sacrifice. True leaders eat last, not first.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      Sometimes surprised, sometimes mad, either way anti-communists that try to pull out the Black Book of Communism are generally making the point that socialism is more lethal than capitalism, when historically it’s the opposite both in total and by ratio.

    • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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      1 month ago

      Communists are liberals, it’s funny seeing how many liberals in the fediverse use it as a slur. Even the anarchists look down on the anti-government people.

      And yeah Libertarians are liberal as well, the problem is including everyone else that isn’t authoritarian.

      • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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        1 month ago

        Why do you feel confident to speak on a subject you have clearly spent zero time informing yourself?

        • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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          1 month ago

          See you don’t know what the term liberal means.

          It has nothing to do with capitalism.

          Communism doesn’t have a government, that makes them liberals.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            1 month ago

            Liberalism is an ideology supporting private property and individualism. Communism doesn’t have a state, but it does have administration, which some consider government, and communism lacks private property.

            • Quadhammer@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Private property in the sense the government can’t seize your home or car or rollerskates without due process. It is not the main caveat of liberalism, which is pro liberty, aka pro human rights. It is an ideology independent of economic system

            • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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              1 month ago

              If you have an administration then you create a class struggle that will lead to oppression.

              You have private property because the state (public) doesn’t own it, the people do. (That’s private since you seem confused)

                • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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                  1 month ago

                  Yes, and all are equal, but some more equal. Particularly, anyone that was part of the administration of the soviet union was more equal than anyone not close to the administration.

                  Administration needs to be humanless.

                • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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                  1 month ago

                  Can the administration control what the commune does? Laws? Policing?

                  If so then given time the people who seek it will elevate that position.

                  Public ownership under communism doesn’t mean the government (or administration to use your term without a difference) owns it. It means the population has control over whether it is helping (keep) or hurting (remove) society. And the workers are at the forefront of that not politicians or owners.

                  You’re aware that liberalism views landowners as a scourge of society because they make money without adding anything to the world but you cannot view said viewpoint from a communist perspective.

                  I’ll give you another crazy idea; political parties/governments are corporations. They will put their own survival above that of the people they represent.

            • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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              1 month ago

              Yes but it’s a range. The more liberal, the less power government has until it doesn’t exist.

              At least in the political sense of the word.

        • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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          1 month ago

          Communists aren’t authoritarian and the concept predates communism. (Communism is a reaction against oppression so arguing criticism against oppression is anti-communist doesn’t make sense)

      • Jankatarch@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Ngl I don’t blame anarchists. Public schools explicitly said “communism is when government doess stuff.”

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Liberalism is right-wing

        I mean, you gotta define your spectrum. If you want to get French with it, the Monarchists are on the right and the Liberals are on the Left. The communists won’t really exist for another fifty years (as a European economic school).

        Liberalism only exists “on the right-wing” in the modern era thanks to over a century of Socialist nation building. Even then, the very term is muddled by decades of fascist rebranding - first as Anarcho-Capitalists and then as National Socialists and then as Neo-Conservatives and then as Neo-Liberals and now in a return to White Nationalism - with “liberal” being embraced or rejected in turns as our corporate media needed it to be.

        As a case in point, I challenge you to tell me whether liberals are libertarian. In Europe and Asia, they functionally are. In the Americas, they couldn’t be further from it in mainstream politics.

        The political spectrum is full of double-speak. “Liberal” is a textbook case. It can mean anything and nothing.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          If we’re being consistent, it’s an ideology centering private property and capitalism, which puts it on the right in the global context.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            it’s an ideology centering private property and capitalism

            That’s the economic angle. But it also promises a host of libertarian social reforms included within the free market system. What’s more, liberalism isn’t just an attempt to yank socialists back from their economic progressivism. They’re often efforts to balkinize the power base of local dictatorships and feudal aristocracies.

            The original liberals were trying to break up the Old World feudal system, establish economic mobility through cross-border trade, and secularize states that had historically been married to a single branch of a particular religion. All of that was incredibly left-wing from the perspective of the theocrats and monarchists.

            Hell, the whole pitch aimed at The Dictatorship of the Proletariat that liberals make is that Socialists/Communists are just Monarchists in disguise. Unipolar parties aren’t really democratic. Centrally planned economies aren’t really communally owned or beneficial. And atheist leaders are just advancing their lack-of-religion as its own kind of faith.

            Are these liberals full of shit?

            Yes

            But the political spectrum is wide, and they’re nowhere near the right-most end of it.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              I feel that this is just a consequence of trying to firmly place ideologies on a spectrum beyond whether they affirm capitalism or affirm socialism. I don’t tend to bother trying to compare how right or how left ideologies are, but instead judge the various left and right ideologies on their own propositions, which can’t be easily graphed.

      • n3m37h@sh.itjust.works
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        1 month ago

        Liberalism has been highjacked by conservatism and is actually a left leaning ideology

        ‘In most countries, classical liberalism is thought of as a right-wing ideology, but when classical liberal ideas made their debut, they were thought of as leftist.’

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          Liberalism was never highjacked, it was only “leftist” when monarchism was the standard. Liberalism is the standard now.

      • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        You guys ever think you’re being coaxed by the rich to create all these dividing groups. I sure do.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            Why don’t you think that? Wouldn’t it make sense that convincing groups to decimate and alienate themselves from the main body would benefit them politically? Or is this just a case of the left going off of vibes hopes and dreams

            • Comrade1917@lemmy.mlOP
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              1 month ago

              Liberals don’t help us. They have been in power before and do absolutely nothing.

                • causepix@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago

                  Liberals arent a singular group

                  They are when your definition of a liberal is material rather than aesthetic.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              I don’t think the rich are creating communist orgs that accurately explain the problems today just to divide liberals from the left, considering liberalism by nature already supports the system the capitalists profit off of. If anything, your suggestion is going off of vibes, hopes, and dreams.

              • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                I didn’t say they were creating them. I am saying they’re targeting groups with more passion than brains

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  The rich do manipulate liberals into thinking they can get meaningful change through electoralism, but I don’t see what that has to do with leftists.

            • Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 month ago

              Liberals call Trump a communist on daily basis. Why should we trust these malicious and stupid people who can’t even differentiate socialism from fascism?

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          you’re being coaxed by the rich to create all these dividing groups

          “Bad People tricked you into thinking that way” is such a shit way of engaging anyone politically.

          It simultaneously serves to call the audience stupid and insert some nebulous outside agency as the scapegoat for failing to make your own case.

          Like, if you want to rally people to all agree you fucking suck, there’s really no better way than to go to every individual group and say “I’m right, its obvious, and you’re just too dumb to notice.”

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            Didn’t answer what I asked. Being stupid is ignoring a question like this because of ego

            And I don’t want to rally people. I’m honestly giving up on the left. I’ve watched them slash tires to protest … Cars. I’ve seen them defend blocking traffic even when we see how counter productive it is when it always produces footage of regular folks and emergency vehicles getting delayed. I’ve watched them Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. I have seen zero effective strategies. But now I’m tired and things I wouldn’t call it I’ll say it now because I’m so fucking done watching people not realize this stuff. It’s walkaway 2.0

            I’ve watched the left turn into something that is extremely toxic. There’s no social awareness. If you think what I’m saying is toxic or lacking in social awareness congratulations, that’s the strategy the left uses every single day now. There’s no effort, no consistency day to day other than areas that divide. It’s an ideology about burning bridges and purity tests

        • Comrade1917@lemmy.mlOP
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          Are you funded by the billionaire elite to defend liberalism? Obviously we divide capitalist ideology from socialist/communist groups