does this look natural to u?
I can side with the vegans that the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But eating meat in of itself is not wrong, that is what is natural
Yeah, I wash shocked to find out that Squirrels hunted and ate smaller mice when they felt the urge.
Almost all herbivores are opportunistic carnivores. Cows are known to eat rats found in the hay. Horses sometimes gobble down a chick if they feel like it.
All these strict rules people believe about biology were prescribed by scholars of old who believed in a perfect creation where everything had its place, but reality is very messy.
Carnivores, not cannibals lol
All cannibals are carnivores but not all carnivores are cannibals.
Thanks 😅
Yo this seems to be a bad take
I think something that defines humanity is that we really try not to follow the “rules of nature”, ie. the rule of the stronger over the weaker
99% of vegans dont say eating meat in itself is wrong and this bullshit narrative needs to stop
Edit: I wrote “in itself” to make it especially clear, but it seems people are skipping that part. The act of eating meat can not be evil, carnivorous animals do it for survival. The context is always what matters.
I would go as far as to say that most vegans wouldn’t have a moral problem with eating roadkill. The physical act of eating meat is only harmful to an animal if it’s still alive while you’re eating it. The problem is the part before that, where you paid someone to hurt it
You haven’t been here long, have you?
Youre saying vegans want to stop animals from eating other animals? I dont think so.
🤣 go to the Lemmy vegan community and say that. I’m sure you’ll easily get 99 upvotes and only a single downvote
I can go to a conservative community and say liberals have horns and get the same result. It proves nothing.
Nature according to people who use that argument
Well if the ants can do it, why can’t we?(Btw, I’m opposed to caged chicken egg cultivation, and even had my own chicken in the past before I couldn’t anymore for eggs. Now I just pay the premium and researched which were the most ethical eggs in the store available. Happy hens make better eggs anyway. I’m just pointing out we’re not the only ones that raise animals for consumption in nature).
Why would what ants do have relevancy to what we should do?
It tracks the logic of the meme then counterpoint, this is the counterpoint to the counterpoint.
Those ants are farming aphids. They keep them in close quarters. Ants are nature. Ergo the meme
Everything is nature. But which closed quarters are they kept?
The ones where of the aphid strays too far from the closed in pack it becomes an instant snack (hey that rhymes).
At least we cook our chickens first (/s)
ants can do it, why can’t we?
(Btw, I’m opposed to caged chicken egg cultivation
lol. Classic carnism.
You vegan? Apparently y’all are fine with meat too according to some:
I invented a fictional society for stories in which you are allowed to buy and consume meat, but only if you have a “carnivore’s medallion”. The only way to obtain one is to have witnesses observe you personally slaughter a living being (eg, a chicken) with no assistance.
Ideologically, seems like a good way to put friction on meat obsessions and get people to think about it.
Isn’t this just hunting?
Well, hunting involves the whole orange vests, ensuring legal permission, stalking an animal, etc. The idea would be if this world has hunters, any of them certified as a witness can get their colleagues a medallion without going the whole chicken route.
But obviously, most people who eat meat today don’t hunt. So they would need to go through the experience of taking life once before reaping the benefit.
I like this idea. We’re raising chickens and probably rabbits this spring. If you’re going to eat meat, you should face the reality of the life you are consuming.
Sounds interesting.
90% alive today would not eat meat if they had to kill. You can grow up used to it of course.
If they went to live naked in the woods and used their apex predator canines to tear out a deer’s jugular, I’m not judging.
As much as I admire the morality and overall health of vegetarian/vegan folks, I would also super respect anyone who got all their protein by monstering whole live mice that they caught by hand.
I’d support a “you can eat all the meat you can catch and kill with your bare hands” diet.
Our ancestors have been using sharp sticks, heavy sticks, and sharp rocks since they could walk upright, so I’d support that, too.
Well… I’ll allow a sharp rock but only hand chipped.
I’m vegetarian and my partner is vegan but neither of us are strictly against the “hunter and gatherer” approach.
Where I live traditional hunting is almost nonexistent, but fishing and other ocean-based “hunting” (crabs, crays, oysters etc) is super popular. I’ve considered taking up spearfishing as it’s more intentional than throwing in a hook and dragging up whatever, and requires more (in my opinion) skill and nerve to pull off successfully. But even if I actually caught something the thought of cleaning it puts me off and I’d more than likely ruin it and waste a life for nothing.
No issues with anyone that can fairly catch and prepare their own meat for themselves, but I’ll stick to my tofu and seitan for now.
Hell yeah
IMHO traditional hunting isn’t a problem at all. It’s sustainable and the animal gets a real life and a respectful death.
I’m not gonna do it myself but I’m not going to tell some Inuit that his ancestors were all wrong.
Vegans and vegetarians are not often more healthy than meat eaters. In fact a lot of them subsist mostly on junk food and ultra processed shit.
I dunno about their morals. For me it depends on whether they are opposed to meat because they think it’s murder (absurd notion: see op) or because they opposed the treatment of living animals in industrial meat farms, which is the real issue.
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Are you gonna eat all those metric tons of corn that are produced to feed the cows? Because I sure as fuck won’t.
I understand your argument but I think that it is just one way of looking at it and it is still more focused on human welfare rather than sentient life form welfare. Because of that I think the scale of meat production and the treatment is the problem. In a perfect society people would buy a cow to eat per year per 2 people in the household and we would have far more human treatment of a sentient species and they could be afforded good lives and painless deaths.
Life by itself has no value, what is valuable is to what extent that life can be enjoyed.
However you gotta justify your choices I guess.
I just don’t think life by itself has any value, nor that death in itself is tragic. Life for me is valuable so much as you have the ability to enjoy it, and I think it to be the same for all sentient beings. But the reality is we are all interlinked and dependent on one another, we need to eat one another to survive. And so I don’t believe that animals dying is a tragedy in itself, I think an animal living in agony and then dying painfully is the real tragedy. We can eat them but we should have them live like kings before we eat them, in honor of their sacrifice.
OP’s argument is far more absurd than its strawman.
We’re destroying the Amazon for cattle but haha birds eat rodents lmao gottem
Yeah I like meat but that is a stupid argument unless you hunt all your meals yourself.
I’ll take “things actual vegans never say” for $500!
it’s not even a contradiction. One can respect something and not emulate it.
I for one have great respect for the ocean, and the brave people who risk their lives sailing across it. I’m fine here in kansas lol
I think the problem isn’t that we eat meat. It’s that we torture the animals and have them live in deplorable conditions before we eat them. If we all hunted or raised our own animals or had the animals live in decent conditions it would be less of an issue for most REASONABLE vegans and vegetarians. I used to be vegan and vegetarian a decade so I get it a bit. I hated it when anyone would bitch about other people’s food choices, but then complain when they did the same to them for their food choices. Both sides I mean. I had some non-veggies once they found out I didn’t eat meat would attack me for it. When I did start eating meat again some vegans and vegetarians would attack me for it.
I know that the industry is horrific. I have battled internally with becoming a vegan. And this isn’t a but, it’s just something i thought about once when thinking about the argument that whilst in nature, animals eat other animals, its not the same as what we do as we farma dn torture animals to get the meat…
Its cats…
Cats torture their prey…
They play with it, and maim it and keep it alive for as long as possible so they can chase it, for fun…
And sometimes they just fucking leave it there when it dies.
And we love cats. Even vegans love cats.
And that sort of makes me laugh a bit.
Most of the time, adults don’t torture their prey. Kittens aren’t born with the ability to hunt, and their instincts need to develop too. So the mom brings home live prey for the kittens to play with. Sometimes adults keep this behaviour.
Yeah I was thinking this kind of thing too, but also house cats have all the food they want anyway. Not sure how much each is a factor in this.
Boredom really.
Well fed house cats that don’t need to bother eating their prey and don’t necessarily entirely understand hunting will do that.
I wonder if a wildcat in an environment that had plentiful mice would start to do the same?
Absolutely, the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But, there are plenty of vegans who also rail against alternatives like lab grown beef which is still meat but bypasses all the problems with the meat industry of today
If lab grown meat were readily available and affordable, I would switch in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I know for a damn fact I dont have the discipline for veganism, bad as the industry is. Also milk and eggs have to be produced somehow no matter what or the animal dies because we bred them like that millennia ago so like might as well eat those anyway
Doesn’t have to be all/nothing. You don’t have to become a vegan, you could still cut down on how much meat you buy. Or only eat what you can kill?
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we torture the animals
don’t do that
Not a vegan, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard a vegan say that. We’ve all watched nature shows. Rationale is usually a little bit deeper. Overconsumption, abuse of animals in meat/dairy industries, responsibility of humans to aim for a higher level of morality than animals, etc. Sure some go overboard, but I wouldn’t underestimate the complexity of the thinking behind it.
Humans “i dont rape because i respect other humans”. Meanwhile nature …
And in before “but i need to eat”, you dont need to eat animal products. You can have a healthy life with a vegan diet, arguably an even healthier life. And to go back to my original point, just because you need to cum, doesnt mean that you have the right to cause suffering and death to other sentient beings.
Just masturbate. Just go vegan.
But what about my sharp canine teeth? Check mate.
Look at this carnivore devouring their prey.
I 100% agree with you, that the existence of canine teeth does not mean that we must eat meat, but pandas are famously bad at living. The species only exists at this point because humans think they’re cute
From all the animals thst feed only on plants and have huge canines, you chose the bear?
I’m not your waiter, and this isn’t Australia
Oh, then, whatever you say when you win checkers 😎
Those are to hold on to your victim more tightly
you dont need to eat animal products.
you don’t know what anyone else needs
There are too many people for us all to hunt our own meat, and the same amount of farmland that can feed x amount of livestock can feed significantly more people than the livestock would.
Not all crops are created equal.
Crops intended for livestock are way easier to farm, require less water, less pesticides, less fertilizer, and less taking care of.
Many times crops intended for livestock are a necessary part of rotatory crops. As they tend to be easier on the land.
Farming is not as easy as “you can grow anything in any given land”.
Our species were shaped as omnivores, meaning we have a choice of what we want to eat. Don’t forget where we don’t live anymore: the jungle. Just because we used to live in caves doesn’t mean we should live in caves now. Also, they didn’t have McDonald’s in the jungle.
First and foremost: You are correct.
Now allow me to try to be funny: Well… Apartments are just pretty square-ish caves.
(Note that I said “try to be funny”)
After the second world war we also said “never again” but apparently some people missed that memo too.
My man cave is so much more sophisticated than caves from the stone age. I have cats, instead of mountain lions. I have some paintings on the wall… Oh wait, no, that’s not much different. I have central heating instead of a camp fire. And I have to pay a ludicrous amount of rent. So yeah, my cave is much better than ancient caves. I guess…
excuse me the children yearn for the mines
Non-vegan, hearing that vegans exist: “Hey, these people are different from me! I hate them!”
It’s because the very existence of veganism implies that a) eating animals and the things they produce is harmful and b) you don’t need to eat animals or the things they produce. Omnivores have to argue against one or both of those claims, or acknowledge that they’re doing something wrong, and humans will commit a lot of evils to convince ourselves that we’re not doing anything wrong
“I’m a good person, good people don’t do bad things, therefore nothing I do is bad”
Nah I think most ppl honestly don’t care. We don’t even care about each other as the western world’s entire lifestyle is based on the exploitation of other countries and their ppl.
You expect someone to suddenly give a damn about a cow 500 miles away?
So we domesticated fire, that’s one step out of the swamp and steppes.
Then there was agriculture and animal husbandry, we became sedentary.Writing developed, accelerating growth in the arts, math and engineering, the sciences… we had domesticated knowledge and memory - data storage.
Before we knew it, the printing press popped up and soon after we domesticated something abstract and invisible, awesome and truly fundamental - electromagnetism. That’s is the big game changer right there.
We have figured out our physical place in the universe.
We can image distant supermassive black holes, we have mapped the farthest, faintest reaches of the visible universe using the oldest light there is - the Cosmic Microwave Background (which started out as orange light 13.7 billion years ago).We are now in the process of harnessing sunlight and the wind; the genome; we can now even perform data operations using quantum superimposed electron states, harnessing the subatomic wave function itself.
Surely we can now domesticate cruelty-free protein chemistry. So many steps away from the swamp and steppes already, so far we can’t turn and go back again. What’s one more step?
Next step is extreme longevity IMO. Such a bummer people only have a couple of decades to perfect their skills before it all runs out in the sand.
Get me a lab grown steak any day though!
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This is for real shit post
Falcons didn’t fuck up by inventing tofu, so they have an excuse. We don’t.
The survival of the fittest narrative was debunked almost as soon as it existed, and that debunking is what forms the ideological basis of mutual aid. That people continue to spread this toxic misinformation over a century later is a testament to the unfortunate tenacity of lies.
Even in the most brutal depths of the natural world, cooperation is still the overarching basis of ecosystem health. It’s known in Permaculture, for instance, that too much competition results in resource depletions.
A vegan ethic is inline with a growing awareness and need for us all to learn to expand our capacities of empathy and compassion, from those who are most like us, to those who are most unlike us.
On the topic of wilderness areas, vegans are divided on what the right approaches are. Some of us compare natural biomes to sovereign nations - while we dislike the harms that occur in those places, we feel a need to allow other species their independence to have their self-determination, if for no other reason than the fact that nature is the basis of maintaining a habitable planet, and interference in ecosystems should only be done with the utmost care.
But there are other vegans who do believe strongly that we should be intervening in wild places as well, with the goals of eliminating predation all together, and managing wildlife populations in more ethical ways.
It’s a highly contentious topic to be honest.
“fittest” in “survival of the fittest” doesn’t mean strongest or most dominant.
It means “best adapted”.
It can be rephrased as “the species most likely to survive are those best adapted to their environment”So it wasn’t really debunked, per se, the strange perversion of “alpha” survival was debunked. Mutual aid is absolutely an excellent environmental adaptation that leads to survival.
This is a good way of putting it.
