You don’t lie, lying will get you into trouble. You just don’t mention it if they don’t ask. And if they don’t ask it’s probably not that important. Most job descriptions are like Christmas wishlists anyway, they will be happy if they get half of it.
These days you’re called different with a sexy word neurodivergent when you tell the truth.
Like this person I also find this strange. And like this person I also have problems during job interviews. I mean, I’m not bullshitting you and I expect you to do the same. But alas, it’s often bullshit and lowballing all the way.
You are looking at job applications from the wrong perspective. You are seeing the job description and seeing minimum requirements, when in 90% they are describing the ideal candidate that will probably never show up.
And I want to emphasise, you shouldn’t lie, you shouldn’t pad your résumé, but you should also not volunteer to testify against yourself.
Yes, minimum requirements are not actually minimum requirements. So silly for people taking things literally.
People here expecting a bureaucracy to behave not only like a person, but like a honest and transparent person with simple and plainly stated goals…
They’re not usually labeled “minimum requirements”
That may be what you’re interpreting, but they’re usually titled “ideal applicants will have the following” which isn’t the same thing
It feels like the same thing to people with rigid views on the world, but they are not the same.
I frequently see a list of minimum separate from preferred. Here’s an example.
Entirely!
But not all systems have that feature.
It’s only wrong if you get caught!
I find it entertaining that the criteria for neurodivergence includes telling the truth.
I find it concerning that lying is apparently always an option for NTs.
I’m autistic and lying is always an option for me too. I’m extremely good at it. I just don’t do it, because it’s wrong and harmful.
Isn’t it annoying that the majority of time when it is pointed out that an entire system is based on lying and misrepresentation that the excuse is either ‘that’s just how it is’ or ‘everyone does it’ as if that makes it right somehow.
Neurotypical just seems to be going along with everyone else’s bullshit to avoid conflict.
Many people mistake cowardice for wisdom.
I think when people say “it’s how it is” or “everyone does it”, it’s more of a pragmatic way to cope. End of the day, we gotta have food, shelter, and entertainment. If only shitheads lie, they’ll be the only one to be successful. One person on the bottom being honest won’t change a system with ages of momentum
The calculus is if I value truth telling over my mortgage? Vast majority of the time, my mortgage wins.
I’m not telling you not tell the truth, I’m telling you to consider that list of skills on a job description is a wishlist and only answer what is asked in the interview.
I’ve interviewed more people than I can count, leading to more hirings than I can count, and I don’t remember any case where the candidate met all the checkboxes on the ideal skillset. Because what goes in the job description is the perfect candidate not the minimum.
When I found out the list of qualifications could be filled on the job it made applying a lot easier because I was no longer worried about bring ‘found out’ for not being fully qualified on day one. I blame the position wording making it sound like day one requirements and HR treating them as day one requirements
I’m my experience, even if you get caught. The exaggeration to get your foot in the door is expected, and everyone is expected to represent themselves deceptively well. Honesty in the interview when everyone can deal with nuance can work and might be appreciated, but definitely a little exaggeration in the resume unless you have ungodly actual credentials/connections.
In my case, early in my career a contracting company lied on my behalf without telling me.
So I’m in the “skills assessment” meeting and I’m confused when they started rattling off experience from my resume that I didn’t have. I asked if I could see their copy of my resume and said “ok they made this section up, but the rest appears the same, here a printed copy of my resume unmodified”.
I was shocked and figured that was a way to tank any chance I had at the job, but they “hired” me and said people and contracting companies did it all the time, so it didn’t phase them, but admitted my resume as it was from me wouldn’t have even gotten an assessment.
Also, if you think enough about what a lie even is you can rationalize a lot. Am I a self motivated and highly organized person? Well, nobody’s ever described me that way before, but maybe I could start being one right now, stranger things have happened. And if it all blows up a few months down the line because I couldn’t manage to get my shit together, I’ll take my couple of paychecks and tell myself “well, I meant to do better” and that will be at least 51% true and I will have a couple of paychecks I wouldn’t have otherwise.
Alternatively, just find a way to sell your weaknesses as strengths. e.g. “I’m not always super organized, but I’m real good at dropping in to a chaotic situations on short notice and getting the essential things straightened out quickly because my disorganized nature has forced me to learn those skills. I’m not self motivated, so you don’t need to worry about me undermining your plans and vision for this place with my own, making decisions makes me nervous so you do that stuff and I will see that your decisions are carried out.”
Then those criteria souldn’t go under “Required” then.
“Required” has a clear definition.
Before I graduated I was encouraged to apply for a job that required a four year degree.
Don’t worry about it - we know you, they said.
When I submitted my application online it was automatically rejected because the application program correctly flagged that I didn’t meet the requirement of having a four year degree.
This is when you call them directly and tell them that. They can override the automation.
and if they won’t/can’t, then there’s an easy answer as to whether it’s worth working there at all
So, what do you do? The problem is it’s also difficult from the hiring side. Every opening has dozens to hundreds of applicants, most of whom are not qualified. No one can keep up with that, and recruiters/hr are horrible at it. Automation sucks, but it’s the quickest, easiest, fairest way to identify a smaller group that you hope are the ones who are qualified
We can put someone like an intern at the top of the pile because we know them, officially.
Sounds like you need to rotate your technical staff into the recruiting process.
Do they spend any time speaking with recruitment/hr?
Of course we all give feedback to recruiters, and typically ask for a new pile with the adjusted criteria. There’s even been times when we asked for everything, no filters, but we can’t afford to have technical people tied up going through piles of resumes
I do believe it’s tougher than it looks. Recruiters need to understand the field to know what to look for, and understand enough about what the company is looking for but they just don’t.
Earlier in my career it seemed like there were specialist recruiters who could do that: find the right people to place with the right company. However now it seems to have degenerated into salesmanship and quantity over quality. Or I don’t know if I’m just earlier in the process now, helping to identify who is worth interviewing, rather than just being another interviewer
Why yes, I do thrive under pressure. It’s why I use a weighted blanket.
I’d like to be
Under the sea
In an octopus’s garden
in the shade
Yes, and then don’t provide “real” answers at the interview, make up stuff they want to hear, be friendly and create small talk with a complete stranger, act like you actually GAF about the company when all you want to do is just get a job and start working, screw all this people-interaction stuff.
For me, getting the interview is the hard part.
I’ve never interviewed for a job where I didn’t get the offer. I can’t say exactly what works for me, but I can explain my process a bit.
First off, I go in confident. a lot of that probably had to do with my history with interviews, but that’s the first part.
Secondly, I look at it as me interviewing the company. I want to know the company is right for me. To that end, I ask a lot of questions about the position and the team. I ask if they’re looking to fill a hole or are willing to have the role reinvented.
Obviously, that last bit is for taking a unique role in the comment, not just as cashier number 23.
I am also clear that I’m not looking to remain in that position forever. I want to work at it a few years and move on, wither within the company or elsewhere. I won’t bail in 6 months, but I also won’t do the same job with no evolution for 10 years. My career needs to grow.
Essentially, I try to interview in a manner where they’re trying to win me over instead of weed me out.
I’m my current job, I was relaxed, got the interviewers talking family and casually about the projects, started giving feedback on issues as if I was already on board, and essentially changed it from an interview to a group meeting.
It turns out I was asking for about 30% more than my competition, but they gave it to me anyway, and it all came down to making myself feel like a member of the team they wanted to hold onto rather than just someone looking for a paycheck.
And I’m absolutely there for the paycheck. I liked my old job a lot more, but I got like a 60% pay bump going to the new job.
That whole routine doesn’t magically make sense to neurotypical people either.
I have a stable job that I like.
Sometimes I think I should go to interviews just to make recruiters feel insecure, “your business is not up to my expectations” “what do you mean you don’t provide flexible remote working?” “Your paycheck is just too small for me, sorry”.
I would get a laugh of of it and probably would help some fella by lowering this fuckers ego.
I do this all the time. Keeps my interview skills sharp. Plus you never know when somewhere will wind up making you an insane offer.
How do you do something like this when most interviews happen during work hours?
It’s a lot easier if you have an office job, even easier if you’re full time remote. My experience has been the first round is over the phone, in which case before the pandemic I used to just go find an empty meeting room or go out to my car to take the call. For in person interviews, I’ll “have an appointment” and take a half day.
I think of myself as a neutodivergent person but I am annoyed by neurodivergent people who act like everything is binary yes/no black/white full volume/absolute silence. Like, everyone in the world knows that the gas pedal in the car is not an on/off switch and believe it or not but other things in life are like that.
Black and white thinking is pretty common in ASD though isn’t it?
Yes, and this is why it’s a disorder and can be a disability despite people saying things like "autism is my super power ". It’s not funny when strict rigid thinking runs up against fluid reality. People make absolute rules in their heads and when the real world doesn’t align with those rules they can suffer real distress.
I guess that’s my point. I agree with you. ASD make up a large portion of ND. I don’t personally like the ND identity even with an ADHD diagnosis (and have quite obvious symptoms when off my meds).
The reason I don’t like it is because if you use it as an identity, suddenly my experience needs to be accepted by everyone. I need the medicine to function in this society. To appear as a functioning adult. If I just said to people “Im neurodivergent” and expect them to handle my lengthy train of thought and wild imagination I would probably not have a job.
It isn’t race, ethnicity, a sexuality or gender - that is an identity that affects no one regardless of occupation or status except the individual. Neurodivergent disorders affect you, your family, your friends, your employer, your customers, your classmates, etc.
Get out of here with your smart and reasonable take!
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As an autistic person I relate to this so hard it isn’t funny.
As a non-autistic person, it’s also incredibly annoying. Job hunting has always been a really stupid system with lots of really stupid rules of thumbs.
It’s not lying as much as it’s advertising. If they’re asking about your greatest weakness, tell them. Just don’t neglect to mention how you mitigate that weakness too, and are improving. Don’t let your answer end on “I’m a disorganized mess”, end it on “so in the last year, I’ve started building and using checklists and it’s been really effective”.
In the same way, be up front if they ask about the criteria you don’t meet. But consider your entire answer, again, you can say something like “I actually haven’t worked in that language before, but I’ve done lots of work in Python and Java, so I’m confident I can pick it up quickly as needed”. If they don’t ask, then it probably wasn’t really that important of a criteria to them, so you shouldn’t waste your interview time talking about it either.
Don’t volunteer all your worst traits, you only have an hour, so focus on describing your strengths as often as you can. Nobody expects to completely understand you as a person in one hour, they’re specifically asking you to come in and advertise yourself. Instead, read between the lines in the listing (I.E. Things mentioned in the job description or title are likely more important than something in a single bullet point. Look for repetition, or how much they talk about each requirement.). Figure out what the “customer” wants that you’re good at, and ensure you emphasize it, repeatedly. Define clear takeaways and make sure they know what you’re offering, and will actually remember it too.
And practice your answers to many questions. Come up with your best anecdotes for “a time you resolved a conflict with a coworker” and all that nonsense in advance, so that you can confidently segue into those stories that best emphasize your takeaways when asked. Do some research on the company to come up with a good answer to questions like “why do you want to work here?”. The answer doesn’t have to be your top priority, which is obviously “a paycheque”, but just append an unsaid “instead of somewhere else” and answer honestly, because people are good at detecting insincerity. You likely haven’t applied to every company on earth, so tell them why you chose them.
Lastly, like an advertiser, don’t be afraid to segue from other questions into your prepared answers. “Yeah, I’ve always loved X, that’s why I wanted to work here actually, I’d heard a bit about how you were getting involved with X, but with this interesting twist, and thought that sounded like something I’d really enjoy working on”. The interview questions are designed to get you talking about yourself, it’s not a survey where the strict questions are all that matter, and you can simply joke about it if the question comes up later.
A lot of this is tied into rhetoric. Rhetoric is a skill. You don’t need to lie. You need to tell the truth good.
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I wouldn’t like to be a bird. If a bird gets sick it will probably die. If a bird is injured it will probably die. If a bird is born disabled in some way it will probably die. Not to speak about all the predators just waiting to eat you.
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Yes it is really different from human society. You yourself admitted it. In all those cases the bird has almost no chance of survival while we do. I don’t say humans would survive 100% of the time but it’s a fighting chance. I don’t say it is fair. Nature is also unfair.
Like you stated in many places in the world even a disabled person can survive on the labor of society, even if it is a struggle. In many sane places medical care is relatively affordable i.e. socialized. I once spent a month in hospital paying around ~200€ total. And while that is an extreme privilege some access to healthcare even if poor can be found all over the world.
Humans are capable of extreme cruelty but humans are also capable of great compassion. Especially in smaller groups.
A lot og questions can be answered diplomatically and show that you are able to handle yourself:
Q: do you like the colour red?
A1: I hate red
A2: I don’t like red
A3: Not my favourite colour
A4: I prefer blue
In this entirely made up and pointless exercise you hate red and are asked if you like it. Real world applications converging on zero.
On a scale of lie to truth, where are you comfortable with representing your thoughts of red in an interview?
And remember, only Sith deals in absolutes🙃
*Edited layout
The thing is, they are treacherous with their questions. Because the question itself doesn’t matter, what you answer is not the question itself, but the hidden question behind.
This means they don’t trust you to answer honestly, and yet, once you know how the process goes, they actually encourage people to be treacherous too.
This is a lose-lose strategy that they’re using. They are selecting treacherous people instead of qualified people. Probably because they are not qualified themselves, and because qualifications don’t matter to most companies. What matters is appearances and selling an idea.
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I don’t consider myself neurodivergent but I do consider this issue one of the greatest barriers with my finding employment. I was raised to despise lying, and enough bad experiences have made me consider ‘massaging the truth’ to be the exact same thing.
I dont know why they do it and I dont care to find out. I just know I apply even if I dont match the complete criteria. If I tick off 60-70% of what they want, I’ll apply. We are people, not machines. If something doesnt match but is close to it, we try and make it work. This is how the real world works. There are multiple factors at play and they can work in your favour.
I got my first job which required a college degree and some experience. I had personal (non-professional) experience and no degree. Showed an interest in the work they did, told them I work on my own things from time to time and got hired. What probably worked in my favor was a lack of other applicants showing the same degree of interest. I even told them I’d graduate in a year and we made it a requirement. Never got my degree and worked there for 7 years. No lying, some luck and showing an interest. Same strategy worked two more times (out of two), 1st interview and “wanna come work for us?”. Its easier the second time since experience is built up already. And im not some extroverted silver tongued devil or anything. The right interviewer at the right time.
