I have a few questions on how to best behave to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible without sounding bad. I hope you guys don’t hate me.
I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him? Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
I’d love some help with all of this.
I live in a house with three queer/poly people. Around here, people sometimes introduce themselves or others with a note about their pronouns. But if someone doesn’t, it’s okay and either people will pick up the right ones from context, or they will guess and maybe be gently corrected.
“DiD yOu JuSt AsSuMe My GeNdEr??” is not real; it’s an Internet troll parody.
That’s a relief.
So just go on about my merry way and if someone corrects me respect their choices ?
Yeah. Like if you thought someone’s name was Joe but it was actually Jeff and they tell you that, it’s not a big deal. Just one of those things that sometimes happens if you’re meeting new people.
Exactly this. It’s just a minor social correction. Like if you meet Pamela and a few sentences later you call her Pam. She corrects you to ‘Pamela’ because she doesn’t like the nickname. No big deal, you call her Pamela and move on. It’s like that.
I think the people who end up getting upset are the ones who are isolated from the LGBT community in real life.
Yup, that’s about it. A good tactic if you’re not sure about someone’s gender is to lead with your own: “hi, I’m shapis, he/him”. They’ll invariably follow suit most of the time. If they don’t and you get it wrong, well, you tried and were polite about it.
I know I’m out of touch on this, but I just can’t imagine someone introducing themselves in this way. Particularly if you’re a cis male and your pronouns are he/him. I guess it depends on context.
Yeah, it’s definitely still something new. It’s not something I would typically do in 99% of face to face encounters. In work presentations in front of a large audience we typically just fill it in on the introduction card at the start.
It’s only a tactic for the edge case where someone presents ambiguously, in which case they’re probably perfectly used to it as a way to politely ask. And yeah, it’s a little awkward, but no more so that any other “polite chat with a new person” banter.
You can usually tell what pronouns to use via normal social awareness, and when in doubt, sharing yours is a polite way to prompt others to share theirs.
Cis allies usually put pronouns in their bios to show support and normalize the act itself of specifying then online. IRL since you are cis and I asume you look masculine there is no need to specify your pronouns.
Just whenever you meet someone and they tell you to talk to them in a specific way, just do it and respect their pronouns. Its easy. Most people dont care if you get it wrong the first times as long as you acknowledge your mistake and correct yourself, your brain will get used to it and you will not make the mistake later. That’s the different between someone who is learning and an idiot purposefully misgendering someone.
BTW if you arent sure about someone elses pronouns, just ask them. Easy.
One thing I try to do as clueless old man is when I am writing a policy doc or instructions at work, I just stick with they/them.
Instructions on how to merge a branch in Git do not need gender specific pronouns.
Yeah. That is just better.
I think this is the most basic change to make that simplifies everything. Particularly online, until you described yourself as an ‘old man’ I had no idea of your gender. Traditional language would mean even without this information I’d still refer to you with he/him pronouns, or broader terms like ‘this guy’ etc, but to be more welcoming to everyone, we should be starting out using generic they/them for everyone.
Cool thanks. I just put mine up in my bio. Hopefully in the right spot.
Mostly it’s chill - don’t worry about it. If you make an honest mistake, no sane person will think less of you for it. The real faux pas people keep running into is usually just being a cock about this. It’s reasonably easy to avoid.
You likely don’t need to tell anyone IRL. You’re a guy, so he/him is natural. Nobody’s likely to even ask. Same applies if it’s obvious online, otherwise feel free to add it in your profile or something.
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
Most people are cis (etc) anyway, so the obvious guess is mostly safe. You rarely need to refer to anyone by a pronoun before they’re introduced to you. In that case it’s “they” - perfectly normal, native English for centuries, which people sometimes forget. Then, if someone’s introduced as “Bob” he’s probably fine with “he” etc.
If you’re worried about getting it wrong, I’d just wait for a name or refer to them some other way.
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
IRL that’s unlikely, neopronouns are pretty niche even on the internet. He/she/they will do in the vast majority of cases. People who insist on one of the other ones are fairly rare.
I’ve been to conferences where the name tag has a place for pronouns but most people don’t fill them out. 99% of the time it’s safe to assume the pronouns you believe are correct, are correct. If you get told otherwise use the preferred pronouns in the future. If someone freaks out over it after one mistake that’s their problem.
You can also get around pronouns by just using names. I find i rarely need to use pronouns.
Hello! Resident Genderfluid person here. Usually you can just ask their name and that works to get them to give you the greeting they like. They look like a James, but give you the name Samantha? Probably safe to use she/her unless doing so has them ask you to use something else. IRL, at least.
Online? It’s usually in a bio or they will tell you if it is functionally relevant. The only people I (anecdotally) have seen devolve into scree when accidentally misgendered were people trying to start something or acting for the sake of poisoning the well.
As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven’t heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places. Look up gay/trans panic laws. It’s dangerous to be queer in America with Conservatives having so much sway right now.
I would also assume that if someone who looks like a James introduces themselves as Samantha, it’s absolutely fine to ask for the correct pronouns, or ask them to confirm it’s female pronouns. Samantha would probably actually appreciate it.
As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven’t heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places.
This is usually true enough for rule of thumb, but can vary wildly by geography. I would be willing to help smuggle a gender minority out of a rural zone, whereas I wouldn’t be too surprised to hear “ze/zim” in some cities. In general, the GSRM community will appreciate a cis ally signaling ally-ship. OP, as long as it’s safe for you, the community would appreciate your announcing pronouns; it signals that you are not a totally garbage human.
IMO, I think the world is going to transition to using they/them for gender unspecified folks. I’ve been practicing using they/them in written and spoken communications, and it comes off a lot less strange than you’d think.
*The English speaking world
You mean to tell me that they don’t use English pronouns in other languages? I’m gonna need a source on that one, buddy!
Although, more seriously, I am curious if other languages lacking common usage of gender neutral pronouns are doing similar things to they/them. I know mandarin also has a bit of a weird situation where the third person pronoun when spoken is gender neutral, but the characters are gendered (他/她/它 are all PRONOUNced “ta”). I don’t know too much about why this is, but it sounds like it was foreign influence that led to the distinction in the written form?
I know at least for French it’s been more controversial as there was no direct they/them equivalent. Instead new language has started to be used, though it’s not standard. I find it interesting as they/them is often defended (beyond the fact that it’s been in use in English for a long long time) as being a language tool in English that’s readily available and a far more palatable alternative to neo-pronouns. However in French (and other languages) I wonder if an invented gender neutral equivalent is culturally perceived as being no different.
I have worked in IT for 15+ years, and I default to they/them for pretty much everybody. If I get a ticket in for an end user, and the name on the ticket is Jaime or something, it’s a coin toss on the gender, so I just go to they/them. Even if the name is more gender oriented, I don’t make any assumptions. And of course there is the case for foreign names I have never heard before. There’s no harm in using they/them. Or of course the ol’ “The end user”
Finnish language doesn’t have gender specific pronous. Our equivalance for he/she is “hän” and it just refers to a person - not any specific gender. You can literally identify as anything you like, and “hän” still includes to you. Seems like the obvious solution to the “issue”.
I just replied to another comment saying this. It’s trivial and I ask others to do it. I was thinking it would be easy to build this into grammar check software - prompt the user to ask if the document is gender specific, and if not suggest they/them.
Pronouns are largely used to refer to people in the third person. As such I will never declare my pronouns because they aren’t for me to use, they’re for other people to use to refer to me. As such they should use whatever pronouns deliver maximal clarity for the listener.
I will respect others’ pronoun preferences because I’m not an asshole, but when people start trying to tell me that I’m being bigoted by not stating my own pronouns, they can fuck off.
Just for another use case, pronouns can help clarify if you prefer to be called sir or ma’am.
I wouldn’t call you a bigot for not having preferred pronouns though, that seems really silly.
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This is a wonderfully put together comprehensive and informative reply. Thank you :)
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I make assumptions say what i think if im corrected then sure ill refer to u how u want. And when people get mad for me assuming they can get fucked and grow up they are juat words and if words hurt u that bad uve got bigger problems than ur pronouns.
I think the key is for it to be a provisional guess and not a will-be-shocked-if-it’s-wrong assumption. You need to be prepared to have been wrong.
I too, am a straight male. It’s actually pretty easy.
It might be a bit of a faux pas when addressing someone as he/him when they prefer something else. Simply, if the mistake is made, they’ll correct your assumption (I’m sure they get it all the time, it’s not that big of a deal), and tell you their pronouns. Then it’s your task, socially, to respect their wish to be referred to by their pronouns. It might seem awkward to refer to someone directly as “they” or “them”, but it is grammatically correct, it just sounds awkward to our brains because it’s so rarely used as a singular direct pronoun… direct in the way that you’re talking to, or in the presence of that person… but it’s perfectly fine and preferred by your friend/colleague/acquaintance or whatever.
For yourself, if you’re commonly and most comfortably referred to as he/him, then you have two options: 1. ignore it, and people will assume, or 2. put “he/him” in things like your bio/email signature/about me pages and leave it at that. It doesn’t require qualification or context, like “my pronouns are” or something like that, just “he/him” alone in your bio is enough to let people know what you are comfortable with.
Personally, I don’t do anything, I let people assume, because I’m unbothered if someone refers to me as he/him/she/her/they/them. All pronouns for me are fine. I’m most commonly referred to as he/him because it’s the historically “correct” pronouns, but pronouns are more or less irrelevant to me.
And yes, people do, in fact, prefer they/them. I’ve met a few, and it feels awkward at first to say “they”/“them”, but you get used to it.
If your friends refer to you as he/him, and you are happy with that, then those are your pronouns. E.g., “this is my friend so-and-so, he went to x college, but you being a y fan won’t bug him” would be someone using he/him pronouns for you.
Mine are he/him. I don’t bother telling people this on profiles, but I am cis and male-presenting, so people meeting me irl always guess my pronouns right.
On introductions: one totally cool option is to suggest introductions, start with introducing yourself and add your pronouns. This will alert others that you are gender-conscious, which will be welcome by queer and queer-friendly people.
Don’t fret over it, in the same way you wouldn’t fret about whether someone is a vegetarian or not. “Would you like some nuggets?” “Oh I’m vegetarian but thanks” “oh ok cool, I’ll remember in the future.”
Likewise, “hey did you like his idea?” “Oh actually I’m a they/them” “oh ok, I’ll remember in the future.”
You kind of don’t have to think about it this much. Someone who cares will tell you their preferred pronouns, in which case you’d say he/him then move on with your day
in which case you’d say he/him
If that’s their preferred pronoun
I wouldn’t ask someone their pronouns as a conversation opener because it makes some folks uncomfortable. For example a trans person might wonder something like “Do they ask that of everybody? Do I not pass?” if “passing” is something they care about.
It’s better to just correct mistakes when you make them. It’s also just something you’ll pick up automatically talking with people they know, and like here where the hypothetical person’s pronouns are ambiguous you can fall back to they. And when taking to the person themselves you are going to be using you anyway.
