Socialism is a transitional mode of production and distribution between capitalism and communism, characterized by social ownership as the principal aspect, ie rising and dominant, aspect of the economy and the working class as in control of the state. Both apply to China right now. The path of socialist construction in China utilizes a Marxist understanding of economics that sees the material basis of markets as decentralized and underdeveloped production, and the material basis of planned economy as highly developed and centralized production.
China maintains social ownership of the commanding heights of the economy which have already reached monopoly scale, and employs controlled marketization to accelerate the development of underdeveloped industry to create the basis for social ownership through development. The CPC stands at the top, a working class party with a strong basis in Marxism-Leninism with Xi Jinping Thought, and uses this dominance of the state to restrict the capitalists from forming a politically unified and coherent class that could undermine this socialist construction and derail it.
Here’s a diagram of that “stages of socialism” part you mentioned:
They are currently developing towards the intermediate stage, with plans to reach it by 2049. That means they are already socialist, just developing towards higher stages of socialism.
Thanks! I first came across it on Prolewiki, but it’s originally from Cheng Enfu’s On the Three Stages in the Development of Socialism. I’ve been reading more of his work to understand contemporary Chinese Marxist thought.
The average workers are seeing the effect of socialism. Within living memory, workers have gone from foot binding and mass famine on a regular basis to a modernized socialist society. Real wages dramatically improve year over year:
Extreme poverty and homelessness have been eradicated. Home ownership is among the highest in the world, and every day technology is made to benefit the people over corporate profits.
I think you have a caricature of China that exists in your head, but it isn’t the China that exists in reality. Had China adhered to your moralist stance on socialism, that private property is a sin, then the average worker would not have the same levels of dramatic improvements year over year. This is dogmatism, not Marxism.
No, and I find the implication that I must be Chinese and/or paid to talk about socialism seriously to be a pointless rhetorical dodge at best, and chauvanist at worst. If you cannot meaningfully engage with the discussion and would rather insult users while adding nothing of value, then I don’t see why you don’t have a better use of your own time elsewhere.
and I find the implication that I must be Chinese and/or paid to talk about socialism
Never claimed that. I am implying seeing what people say within this amazing country you are describing, of course ones that have found a VPN or something.
Are you under the impression that the firewall prevents outsiders from looking in? The biggest limiting factor is translation of Mandarin to English, and who chooses to perform that, not China trying to keep any information from leaking.
I can and do speak to people from China, but in any case the propagation of English translations depends almost entirely on how western organizations choose to publish them or not.
Your argument against the average citizen in China being unable to feel a massive decline in poverty is… A vague gesture towards survivorship bias? I swear to god you people just throw shit at the wall and type out whatever sticks as your argument
During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.
If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
Lol, so you think any evidence that conflicts with your presumptions about reality is just fake.
Even the fucking World Bank acknowledges that this data is accurate. Are you claiming they’re faking numbers to make China look good? What, is George Soros behind it? How far does your conspiracy theory go?
Maybe you should try basing your beliefs on evidence instead of propaganda and ignorant assumptions.
Everyone’s data on this sux. Not a representative of anything. Like the USSR once had a homeless rate of a grand total of zero because it was made illegal (I know I could bring the US or something into the example but it’s actually funny seeing you get triggered by mention of the USSR). There are other biases like someone promising a bonus inside of the govt if there aren’t any (reported) homeless people.
How would I know you aren’t the one cherry picking?
That’s a great question. If we all just blindly believe whatever we feel is true, then there’s no possible way to determine who’s right and who’s wrong. That’s why it’s important to ground your beliefs in evidence. Because that way, we can actually determine who’s right and who’s wrong.
But there’s clearly no point discussing anything with you, your views cannot be changed by evidence because they’re not based on evidence. They’re based solely on blind faith. They are fully unfalsifiable, and no matter what the world looks like in reality, there could never be any evidence that would change your mind. It’s no different from arguing with a Flat-Earther.
If you ever get tired of worshipping at the alter of anti-communist propaganda and decide to start basing your beliefs on evidence instead of faith, hmu and we can continue this discussion then.
Socialism is a transitional mode of production and distribution between capitalism and communism, characterized by social ownership as the principal aspect, ie rising and dominant, aspect of the economy and the working class as in control of the state. Both apply to China right now. The path of socialist construction in China utilizes a Marxist understanding of economics that sees the material basis of markets as decentralized and underdeveloped production, and the material basis of planned economy as highly developed and centralized production.
China maintains social ownership of the commanding heights of the economy which have already reached monopoly scale, and employs controlled marketization to accelerate the development of underdeveloped industry to create the basis for social ownership through development. The CPC stands at the top, a working class party with a strong basis in Marxism-Leninism with Xi Jinping Thought, and uses this dominance of the state to restrict the capitalists from forming a politically unified and coherent class that could undermine this socialist construction and derail it.
Here’s a diagram of that “stages of socialism” part you mentioned:
They are currently developing towards the intermediate stage, with plans to reach it by 2049. That means they are already socialist, just developing towards higher stages of socialism.
Cool chart, what book is that from?
Thanks! I first came across it on Prolewiki, but it’s originally from Cheng Enfu’s On the Three Stages in the Development of Socialism. I’ve been reading more of his work to understand contemporary Chinese Marxist thought.
Even if so, it’s pointless if the average worker can’t see the effect. It’s malicious compliance.
The average workers are seeing the effect of socialism. Within living memory, workers have gone from foot binding and mass famine on a regular basis to a modernized socialist society. Real wages dramatically improve year over year:
Extreme poverty and homelessness have been eradicated. Home ownership is among the highest in the world, and every day technology is made to benefit the people over corporate profits.
I think you have a caricature of China that exists in your head, but it isn’t the China that exists in reality. Had China adhered to your moralist stance on socialism, that private property is a sin, then the average worker would not have the same levels of dramatic improvements year over year. This is dogmatism, not Marxism.
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Jumping straight to chauvinistic racism I see
No, and I find the implication that I must be Chinese and/or paid to talk about socialism seriously to be a pointless rhetorical dodge at best, and chauvanist at worst. If you cannot meaningfully engage with the discussion and would rather insult users while adding nothing of value, then I don’t see why you don’t have a better use of your own time elsewhere.
Never claimed that. I am implying seeing what people say within this amazing country you are describing, of course ones that have found a VPN or something.
Are you under the impression that the firewall prevents outsiders from looking in? The biggest limiting factor is translation of Mandarin to English, and who chooses to perform that, not China trying to keep any information from leaking.
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“China is authoritarian because they speak Chinese instead of English,” you can’t make this shit up.
have you considered why English is the “de-facto world language”? And therefor the context on “world”?
I can and do speak to people from China, but in any case the propagation of English translations depends almost entirely on how western organizations choose to publish them or not.
You can read BBC talking about it here, and see the actual process in what does it mean to eradicate absolute poverty? Alleging “survivorship bias” in response to demonstrable poverty eradication without doing any legwork to support your assertion is just naked “China bad.”
Your argument against the average citizen in China being unable to feel a massive decline in poverty is… A vague gesture towards survivorship bias? I swear to god you people just throw shit at the wall and type out whatever sticks as your argument
How on earth is that connected to the eradication of extreme poverty in China?
It’s not going to show up on the graph if it’s unreported.
EDIT: like when they are in prison/camp, dead, unregistered immigrant or just unwritten
Lol, so you think any evidence that conflicts with your presumptions about reality is just fake.
Even the fucking World Bank acknowledges that this data is accurate. Are you claiming they’re faking numbers to make China look good? What, is George Soros behind it? How far does your conspiracy theory go?
Maybe you should try basing your beliefs on evidence instead of propaganda and ignorant assumptions.
Everyone’s data on this sux. Not a representative of anything. Like the USSR once had a homeless rate of a grand total of zero because it was made illegal (I know I could bring the US or something into the example but it’s actually funny seeing you get triggered by mention of the USSR). There are other biases like someone promising a bonus inside of the govt if there aren’t any (reported) homeless people.
You asked someone earlier:
That’s a great question. If we all just blindly believe whatever we feel is true, then there’s no possible way to determine who’s right and who’s wrong. That’s why it’s important to ground your beliefs in evidence. Because that way, we can actually determine who’s right and who’s wrong.
But there’s clearly no point discussing anything with you, your views cannot be changed by evidence because they’re not based on evidence. They’re based solely on blind faith. They are fully unfalsifiable, and no matter what the world looks like in reality, there could never be any evidence that would change your mind. It’s no different from arguing with a Flat-Earther.
If you ever get tired of worshipping at the alter of anti-communist propaganda and decide to start basing your beliefs on evidence instead of faith, hmu and we can continue this discussion then.
Provide evidence supporting your claim, then.