Everyone’s data on this sux. Not a representative of anything. Like the USSR once had a homeless rate of a grand total of zero because it was made illegal (I know I could bring the US or something into the example but it’s actually funny seeing you get triggered by mention of the USSR). There are other biases like someone promising a bonus inside of the govt if there aren’t any (reported) homeless people.
How would I know you aren’t the one cherry picking?
That’s a great question. If we all just blindly believe whatever we feel is true, then there’s no possible way to determine who’s right and who’s wrong. That’s why it’s important to ground your beliefs in evidence. Because that way, we can actually determine who’s right and who’s wrong.
But there’s clearly no point discussing anything with you, your views cannot be changed by evidence because they’re not based on evidence. They’re based solely on blind faith. They are fully unfalsifiable, and no matter what the world looks like in reality, there could never be any evidence that would change your mind. It’s no different from arguing with a Flat-Earther.
If you ever get tired of worshipping at the alter of anti-communist propaganda and decide to start basing your beliefs on evidence instead of faith, hmu and we can continue this discussion then.
I don’t feel like bringing evidence right now, I am having fun in these arguments. I also know I am not changing your opinion. I am not even that anti-communist, I am fine with siding with non-stalinist communists. Look around references in the wiki I mentioned before if you want evidence.
Mhm. Right, the evidence totally exists, you just “don’t feel like showing it right now.” And my girlfriend lives in Canada, that’s why you never see her, no you can’t see any evidence she exists, I just don’t feel like showing you right now. Or ever.
We were discussing the eradication of absolute poverty, and went into what identified that and went into eradicating it. You return with a source on homelessness, which has the following to say:
Depending on how one defines homelessness, China has either a very tiny homeless population or an extremely large one. Compared to other countries, there very few vagrants: people living on the streets of China’s cities without means of support. But if one counts the people who migrated to cities without a legal permit (hukou), work as day laborers without job security or a company dormitory, and live in overcrowded and unsanitary conditions on the edge of cities, there are nearly 300 million homeless.
Nobody denies the existence of underdeveloped housing in China. Calling them “homeless,” however, is a stretch. The article itself identifies extremely low rates of vagrancy, which is much higher in capitalist countries. The ongoing development process in China now focuses on increasing the quality of housing and the availability of housing. What is not in question is that China consistently focuses on improving the lives of those most vulnerable in society, which does not improve at the snap of a finger, but through long development processes that drive real results.
I’m not asking for a source about homelessness, I’m asking for a source that disproves the evidence I presented about the eradication of extreme poverty.
Well then you’re wrong. Extreme poverty has a specific definition, which you can find in my earlier link.
This is a big part of the problem. You look at China and judge it based on your standards of poverty, presumably coming from a country that was much wealthier historically. By looking only at the present, and only in absolute terms, you miss the direction that things have gone.
There are huge differences in the scope of things that you might consider “extreme poverty.” Someone who can’t afford a washing machine is poor, and someone who can’t afford their next meal is also poor, but taking people from the latter to the former is a massive improvement in their life, even though privileged people might look at both and just see “poor.”
This is why organizations like the World Bank use specific definitions for terms like “extreme poverty” rather than just going off vibes.
presumably coming from a country that was much wealthier historically
Lol, no, where I live is already in this thread.
Okay, imagine one of the homeless people (by the specific definition from Wikipedia) decides to get a place of their own for some reason. Congrats, they are now in extreme poverty. See how they are related?
You were given a clear definition of a real program that addressed a well-defined deficiency in society, and are responding to it by saying you subjectively interpret the label differently. Earlier you were discussing it as though the numbers were hidden or fabricated, now you’re saying you don’t agree with how they defined absolute poverty. In either case, however, you have not discounted that there was a clearly massive program targeting objectively defined metrics to mass success. The question at hand isn’t if China is a far-future utopia or a dystopia, but where or not the working classes are put at the forefront of society, which is expressed through objective programs and measures.
Everyone’s data on this sux. Not a representative of anything. Like the USSR once had a homeless rate of a grand total of zero because it was made illegal (I know I could bring the US or something into the example but it’s actually funny seeing you get triggered by mention of the USSR). There are other biases like someone promising a bonus inside of the govt if there aren’t any (reported) homeless people.
You asked someone earlier:
That’s a great question. If we all just blindly believe whatever we feel is true, then there’s no possible way to determine who’s right and who’s wrong. That’s why it’s important to ground your beliefs in evidence. Because that way, we can actually determine who’s right and who’s wrong.
But there’s clearly no point discussing anything with you, your views cannot be changed by evidence because they’re not based on evidence. They’re based solely on blind faith. They are fully unfalsifiable, and no matter what the world looks like in reality, there could never be any evidence that would change your mind. It’s no different from arguing with a Flat-Earther.
If you ever get tired of worshipping at the alter of anti-communist propaganda and decide to start basing your beliefs on evidence instead of faith, hmu and we can continue this discussion then.
I don’t feel like bringing evidence right now, I am having fun in these arguments. I also know I am not changing your opinion. I am not even that anti-communist, I am fine with siding with non-stalinist communists. Look around references in the wiki I mentioned before if you want evidence.
Mhm. Right, the evidence totally exists, you just “don’t feel like showing it right now.” And my girlfriend lives in Canada, that’s why you never see her, no you can’t see any evidence she exists, I just don’t feel like showing you right now. Or ever.
Okay fine, I will feed you with this one source https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajes.12324 here’s one source (yes, it fits the definition of homelessness)
EDIT: there’s a paywall, whoops… anyways I have stuff to do and can’t look on btdigg for you
We were discussing the eradication of absolute poverty, and went into what identified that and went into eradicating it. You return with a source on homelessness, which has the following to say:
Nobody denies the existence of underdeveloped housing in China. Calling them “homeless,” however, is a stretch. The article itself identifies extremely low rates of vagrancy, which is much higher in capitalist countries. The ongoing development process in China now focuses on increasing the quality of housing and the availability of housing. What is not in question is that China consistently focuses on improving the lives of those most vulnerable in society, which does not improve at the snap of a finger, but through long development processes that drive real results.
I’m not asking for a source about homelessness, I’m asking for a source that disproves the evidence I presented about the eradication of extreme poverty.
It’s adjacent. I would consider being homeless extreme poverty.
Well then you’re wrong. Extreme poverty has a specific definition, which you can find in my earlier link.
This is a big part of the problem. You look at China and judge it based on your standards of poverty, presumably coming from a country that was much wealthier historically. By looking only at the present, and only in absolute terms, you miss the direction that things have gone.
There are huge differences in the scope of things that you might consider “extreme poverty.” Someone who can’t afford a washing machine is poor, and someone who can’t afford their next meal is also poor, but taking people from the latter to the former is a massive improvement in their life, even though privileged people might look at both and just see “poor.”
This is why organizations like the World Bank use specific definitions for terms like “extreme poverty” rather than just going off vibes.
Lol, no, where I live is already in this thread.
Okay, imagine one of the homeless people (by the specific definition from Wikipedia) decides to get a place of their own for some reason. Congrats, they are now in extreme poverty. See how they are related?
You were given a clear definition of a real program that addressed a well-defined deficiency in society, and are responding to it by saying you subjectively interpret the label differently. Earlier you were discussing it as though the numbers were hidden or fabricated, now you’re saying you don’t agree with how they defined absolute poverty. In either case, however, you have not discounted that there was a clearly massive program targeting objectively defined metrics to mass success. The question at hand isn’t if China is a far-future utopia or a dystopia, but where or not the working classes are put at the forefront of society, which is expressed through objective programs and measures.
Either way, it’s dumb to say “no poverty = people see socialism”. Socialism is when people own means of production, not when govt does stuff.
Your claim was:
I’m showing you evidence that 800 million people did see the effect.
It doesn’t matter if the cat is white or black, so long as it catches mice.