I mean, they don’t even care enough about their warmongering, lying, felonious child rapist of a president. French students are legit protesting harder than Muricans against their pedophile leader. Make it make sense.
As we all know, if you just keep telling people to vote, eventually they’ll just be like “Yeah! I’m gonna take off work from the job that doesn’t give me time off, go find a polling place, which isn’t close and crowded because the state doesn’t run enough polling places, then try to go there in a town without public transportation! Why didn’t I think of this sooner?” Then they get there and find out that most of the local elections are uncontested and the federal ones have only a choice between no climate policy and climate policy which is insufficient but delays the necessary work until it’s too late. Then after begrudgingly voting, they realize that their districts are so gerrymandered their vote basically didn’t count anyway.
Nope, no need to change anything, we just need to keep telling people to go vote. It hasn’t worked yet, but… uh…
To be clear, this isn’t telling you not to vote. It’s telling you to do more than vote.
Yes.
I think things like voter suppression, access to information also weigh a lot heavier than some might think.
I’m also kind of wondering how they came up with this number of 11 million, if people are not politically motivated and activated but are still politically conscious enough to have priorities, there are systemic issues keeping them from voting. And especially at these large numbers, simply saying ‘well they should vote’ and being angry about them supposedly not voting won’t change a damn thing.
We don’t need to yell at people. We need to fucking strategize.
Well said.
Don’t look at me. I voted for Godzilla
because climate concerns are not a concern with either party? both sides may not be the same, but they hold the same views on 90% of all things. and more and more that last 10% seems to be things they want but are still ashamed about it.
Yeah but you still gotta vote.
sure that’s why i vote third party, or candidates i know push my interests. I will not vote for establishment democrat.
That’s fine, so long as they won enough support to be the primary challenger against the GOP candidate. Otherwise you’re wasting your vote and helping the Republican win. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and vote for a bad candidate so that the even worse one doesn’t win.
This argument is exactly what enables the establishment democrats to maintain their power. It’s a threat they hold over the American people, and the only winning move is to not give in and vote for them. The fascists didn’t come to power because of the last election, they came to power because of the 5 decades of concessions the American people gave to the oligarchs.
you can argue some perverse version of the prisoners dilemma all you want, but when i said that i will not vote establishment democrat, i mean i. will. not. vote. establishment. democrat.
Because neither of the two parties are good for the climate.
Sure thing 2 month old .ml account.
You are talking about the 2 parties in your own country called Russia, right?
Maybe because they don’t need to bother securing the votes from people who care about the climate since they know that they won’t vote.
Yes Im sure voting for them no matter what will really make them feel like they have to appeal to you
Go fuck yourself, seriously.
Theyre declaring war on trans people, and your apathy is laying a golden carpet to that. Stupid shitbag.
The Democrats spent the last election cycle sacrificing trans people for an imagined Republican that would be willing to vote for a black woman if they just didn’t want trans kids in high school sports.
Dems would likely be better than Republicans for minorities, including trans people, but only just.
Both candidates were pro war. War is the top polluting activity humans do. People chose not to vote last time because we had absolutely miserable candidate choices, an undemocratic primary, and formal war crimes support from our own party. Anyone who wags a finger after that shenanigans and talks about climate in isolation from the rest of it is missing the forest through the trees.
Both parties are also pro record fossil fuel extraction.
War kills people and nobody pollutes less than a dead man 🤷
But do you actually have a source for that? Because agriculture is the largest driver of ecological collapse and I’d be shocked if a handful of aircraft carrier emissions outweighs tons and tons of foods and goods being shipped.
If anyone considers climate to be their highest priority, the choices weren’t even close to comparable. One was milquetoast green half measures that would kick the can a little further and one was nosedive everything off the cliff and irreversibly accelerate the climate catastrophe. If you stayed at home and were fine with the second choice you were flat out lying about your priorities.
Yeah, it’s a good thing both candidates were the same on every single issue, too, so there was literally no difference in picking between the fascist and the non-fascist. Fantastic job recognizing your duty to stick to one single issue where you feel they were the same!
One thing you’ll eventually have to come to terms with is that it’s the government of the USA that is and has always been fascist and that the two parties aren’t going to stop the fascism that they both manage and benefit from. Biden had the Epstein files and did nothing. You think the voters are gonna stop fascism when the candidates are all fascists and fascist defenders?
Well one party didn’t try to overthrow the election, stop our votes from being counted, call for violence against their dissenters, pardon the people who tried to take control of the government by force, remove anyone who tried to prosecute them, remove anyone who didn’t fall behind them. But I mean the dems didn’t make life changing bills, only generally positive ones while having a majority of checks notes 1 seat. Republicans are an ocean of fascism and dems are a bucket, but I guess it’s better to lose all our rights, help Russia invade Ukraine, and destroy the planet instead of voting for those fascist dems :3
And then Biden took office and he and his DOJ had the full Epstein files AND Project 2025 was openly published and explained and promoted AND Biden said “we have to stop these people” and then did what? That’s correct. He did nothing. He had literal documentation that DJT committed wanton infanticide and rape and human trafficking but did nothing. Nothing. Biden did nothing with the Epstein files while Harris told immigrants not to come to the US because we were absolutely going to continue torturing them at the border and nothing was gonna stop them, just like nothing was going to stop the Israeli genocide and the American participation in it.
No, sorry. The Democrats are not “less fascist” just like the Good Cop is still a cop.
The Ds aren’t going to save Ukraine either. The parties don’t make military decisions, the military does and the parties ratify it. That’s why Obama continued Bush 2’s projects, including invading Libya, which was on Bush’s list but he never got to it. Don’t forget Obama refused to give Ukraine any weapons and declared Venezuela a national security threat after Bush 2 tried to coup Chavez. Trump was the first president to approve arms transfers to Ukraine. I know it’s confusing because you think the parties are “evil” and “almost good” but they aren’t, they are both fascist imperialists and it’s why this all happens this way.
It’s also why the Obama administration expanded ICE and DHS and then deported 3M people with Tom Homan at the helm, just like Trump used all the Obama-era policies and even appointed Tom Homan himself to run deportations (though Trump hasn’t yet caught up to Obama’s numbers).
You’re falling for the manipulation. You somehow believe that the con artist saying “that guy has a knife, I’ll protect you, just give me your wallet” even after that con artist walked away and did NOTHING about the guy with the knife.
The evidence is clear. Both parties are maintainers of the world fascist empire, and one party appeals to the voters with fear of “the other” and the other party appears to the voters with the fear of “being bad people”.
The way I see it, it’s more like they’re ok with it as long as the knife is pointed at someone else. Fascism is imperialism brought home. All that imperialism has been happening non-stop and even at home, marginalized groups have been subject to all sorts of terrible things.
They’ll call that less bad because it doesn’t affect them yet. And in the narrowest sense I guess they are technically correct exactly in the short term. But 1) It’s not better for those other people. 2) They don’t see how one inevitably leads to the other. The same tools they built to stop “our enemies abroad” can and are used to suppress dissent at home.
If a Dem ran that as a fucking bare minimum promised to reign in the military, police, and surveillance states and curb executive power, I’d be more sympathetic to the argument for harm reduction even if they didn’t agree with me on other things. But if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this, at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election.
Well if you’re not one of the people dead from ice, healthcare cuts, environmental impacts from all the solar/wind cuts, dead from cancer from the research we stopped, dead from food illness, dead in the war in Iran, dead in the invasion of ukraine, dead from measles, dead from USAID being gutted, or completely destitute from the cost of living, then yeah here’s not much “harm reduction” to be had really.
Maybe this argument works if Trump hadn’t completely ruined the world and directly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, and probably much more when diseases start spreading because of government sponsored vaccine denial and USAID cuts.
at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election
This exactly.
if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this
It’s beyond enabling. They are architecting it, expanding it, normalizing it, and selling it.
His prosecution was underway and he was about to be convicted and then sent to jail wtf are you talking about? And then the public elected him president, so the investigations stopped. Do you want Biden to just put him in prison with no trial? Just push the send him to jail button that even with trumps fascist army of yesmen he can’t do? Insane how these rewrites of history always come right before an election, I would’ve hoped the Ukraine strikes on the datacenters would’ve slowed it down.
Waiting for 1 dem president that murdered American citizens and sent 200b worth of armed thugs, and the national guard. I guess Obama mishandled the border, which is basically the same thing as telling people immigrants are rapists and murderers, removing as many protections for people of color, and being intentionally evil and murdering people with hired thugs.
It’s just rewriting history, Biden was unbelievably outspoken in his support for Ukraine, was sending them aid, had terrible views of Russia. With Republicans we get a war with Iran and we suck Russia off and tell Ukraine get bent. We can see what the two parties did during this war, we don’t have to guess. Democrats have been with Ukraine since day 1, Republicans against. Trump cut off all Ukraine aid as fast as he could, Biden sent it as fast as he could, there is no mystery there.
Yes. You don’t need a trial for
-a live broadcasted coup attempt and attack at the capitol that was clearly organized and called for by an already established criminal and cult leader,
a PowerPoint presentation of a coup,
a big ass binder of a coup called project 2025 with names and plans of a government conspiracy to throw a “revolution” for the rich “that will be bloodless if the LEFT allows it”.
Over a years worth of committee investigations and hearings
And all of Jack Smith’s work.
YES HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUNISHED SEVERELY IMMEDIATELY
What would Biden have done if Ilhan Omar organized a group of leftists to storm the capital, after a year of perpetuating a rigged voting system, and angering a crowd on tv, and publishing a binder called "Bernie’s roadmap to taxing billionaires and removing AIPAC, IT WILL BE BLOODLESS IF THE RIGHT ALLOWS IT?
What do you think would happen to us?
Same on genocide too, don’t forget!
Oh and immigration!
Loads of new .ml accounts spreading “don’t vote” around, how very unsurprising.
who do you think was non-fascist?
Probably the one that it can be said with certainty wasn’t going to:
- Turn ICE into the gestapo and allow them to round up immigrants without due process, put them in concentration camps, and murder people with impunity.
- Pack the supreme court with fascist friendly “justices” who immediately overturned Roe v. Wade
- Weaponize the Justice department and use it against their political enemies … including attempting to strip a state representative of her citizenship for the crime of daring to oppose them as a non-christian woman of color.
- Weaponize the FCC to control the dissemination of dissent and unflattering truth.
- Do everything in the power to cripple and eliminate essential agencies and services, leading to countless preventable deaths
- Eliminate consumer and worker protections via said defunding/elimination of agencies
- Crow about America’s need for less dependence on other countries for goods that are critical to national security … while eliminating federal programs designed to secure domestic production of those goods.
- Start an unwinnable war, raising the price of oil … and thus the price of everything
- Open, widespread corruption
- Take steps to remove separation of church and state in pursuit of a theocratic government.
- Destroy every ounce of international good will we had, including trade deals
- “Tariff” goods: raising prices drastically and pocketing the proceeds.
- Intentionally create havoc in the national and global economy in pursuit of profit via insider trading and business deals for themselves and their allies.
- Do everything possible to destroy protections for transgender and gender non-conforming people while bragging about “transgenderism isn’t going to be a thing” in the near future.
- Drastically accelerate the scope and power of the surveillance/police state.
- Rule with absolutely zero accountability or consequences.
But hey, it’s not like we’re hearing the exact same “both sides aren’t that different” bullshit that was said in 2008, 2016, and 2020.
Do you notice how many of those hings that establishment Democrats may not have instituted but in no way are they speaking against it or planning to remove them?
They wanted the ICE gestapo to only be 85% fascist, have t said a word about GETTING RID OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS just that they are “inhumane conditions”.
You even complain about “ruling without consequences”, is that the conservative’s fault when your party REFUSES TO PUNISH THEM? the Epstein files showed that both parties partake in all of this, and all of our institutions and agencies allowed it. EVERY DEMOCRAT KNEW and no one ran on ANY of this being their priority and nothing was even leaked for campaigns. What does that tell you?
“Pack the supreme court with fascist friendly “justices” who immediately overturned Roe v. Wade” Yep, they COULD have put in a progressive or “centrist neoliberal” judge but they never did, right? RBG was just too dumb and hard headed to replace with another progressive judge right? Woopsie, the fascists that you are so determined to compromise with lied and fucked us all over anyway. That’s what happens when there is WEAK opposition
The literal plan that these fools can come up with during an existential crisis for our country is:
“Restoring affordable care act tax credits”, “addressing affordability” and “holding the crooks responsible…”
Those are their statements RIGHT NOW
Out of all of the issues you mentioned. They have that weak ass statement, and a shitty 100 day plan that they came up with 30 DAYS before midterms. THEY ARE FASCISTS
you must be talking about de la cruz or Jill Stein or cornel West.
if clearly motivated people don’t want to vote for you, it’s not an indication that they should lower their standards, it’s an indication that you should have standards to begin with
it’s cute how liberals here are so resilient to reality. people don’t care for slow, steady, painfully incremental progress (if even that) when every summer is so much hotter than the last one.
There hasn’t even been slow progress for anything but shifting right. We have been losing everything from the new deal.
It’s literally their equivalent of trickle down economics. SOMEDAY IT WILL HAPPEN DESPITE ALL EVIDENCE SHOWING OTHERWISE
Non voters aren’t motivated to vote, they’re non voters, why would anyone cater to a group that intentionally throws away any influence they could have?
Thanks, I’ll go on and implement a policy to destroy the ability to vote for as many people as possible in as many ways as I can come up with, that way they become non-voters and I don’t have to listen to them. Oh wait, that policy is already what’s happening.
Because progressives don’t fucking vote and give power to Republicans by doing so. If you refuse to participate in the system then you don’t get to be upset when the system disregards you.
Over several decades, progressives are told to vote for the lesser evil, they do, and then the lesser evil helps the greater evil silence progressive voices, so that progressives eventually find out they can’t vote anymore.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Incremental progress is better than actively working to make things worse, but y’know, stick to your guns and help make SURE things get worse. Good job!
i think you misunderstand
i’m not saying people shouldn’t vote (truthfully, i don’t care). i’m saying parties who want votes should have policies worth voting for.
y’all keep talking about how the “let’s not vote for the lesser evil because it’s still evil” voter strategy has lead to terrible results. why not talk about how the “let’s be the lesser evil instead of doing anything good that people would want to support” party strategy has lead to the same terrible results?
The time to make that change is before the general election.
Anytime you’re presented with two choices, take the less bad option. But if that’s the only time you bother to act, or even worse, if you don’t even act THEN to pick the lesser bad option, then you are one less vote against the worse, and therefore by your actions support it. But you already supported it if you weren’t fighting for better options.
“Well, I didn’t pick which restaurant to visit very well, and this restaurant only has moldy fruit or sandwiches made literally from shit. I don’t like either option, so I’m just gonna eat whatever they bring me”. Sure, it’s not a great analogy in the sense that picking a different restaurant is not so easy in the context of politics, but I think it makes the point - always choose the lesser bad option. I’d rather eat the moldy fruit (we’re assuming that we must eat something in this metaphor) than the literal shit. And then work harder to try and prevent us from going to this restaurant next time. But if you are presented with the two bad options and one is worse, not picking an option is fucking stupid.
Uno reverse card
If so many people who care about the climate don’t vote, then why don’t politicians take a stronger line on the issue to appeal to them?
Exactly.
The United States has a problem with voter suppression, and a history of blaming societal problems on individuals to make it look like individual people are responsible instead of the people in charge.
Solid point. Part of it is a blame game as well. I try to stress how local policies are important. Yet you will still have politicians that will state they will do whatever to overturn popular vote. I mean take pot for example, 41/50 states and it’s only getting a reclassification.
Oh so we’re supposed to pretend that climate voters are so stupid they don’t understand that Republicans are bad for the environment?
No, you’re supposed to understand that people will be more motivated to vote if you appeal to them based on the policies they care about and follow through, instead of offering nothing beyond, “not the other guy.”
Why do you need to be “more motivated” if you care about climate change so much, when the options couldn’t be more clear? You are just making excuses for apathy.
How has the Democratic strategy of “at least we’re not the other guy” been working?
Why would you try to appeal to non-voters? They don’t vote. The right messaging won’t suddenly make non-voters voters.
Your message is literally why progressives hate Democrats and why your party only attacks progressives and actively funds and collaborates with MAGA
Democrats have shown time and time again who they work WITH and who they work Against.
Remember when the Democrats banded together to stop the scary revolutionary candidate bringing sweeping change for the people?
I do, it was Bernie, TWICE
Me when I reduce infinitely complex beings in static categories to fit my worldview.
Really? Metaphysical arguments? “X people are inherently this type of person and never won’t be” is such a lazy and uninspired argument.
Libs will do anything but question the status quo, as that status quo gets actively worse and worse from capitalism and imperialism. But hey… Those guys are actively making it worse, we just watch from the sides and maybe put some duct tape on it once in a while.
Ok so you lose then.
No one is going to open a restaurant where the target market is “people who don’t go to restaurants”. If you don’t vote you don’t matter to politicians and that’s all there is to it.
Yeah, that’s not true at all. The hundreds of millions spent on voter mobilization, get out the vote, rock the vote, voter education, voter registration, and all attendant campaigns is such an obvious massive counter to your inispid narrative.
And yet voter turnout is consistently low.
Because voters have figured out that voting doesn’t fucking matter. Once you realize that a) the country has always been run by a single fascist bloc b) with multiple fascist factions fighting for control and c) fronted by two PR firms with subsidiary PR firms that drive psychological manipulation of voters into believing that d) this time it really is the most important election in history and e) voting will fix it and f) if you vote correctly then the fascists you put in power will stop being fascist and g) actually make structural change - once that becomes obvious, voting is just not something people are motivated to do. And to be clear even people like me who believe all those things vote in vast numbers because it is a ritualized symbol and it has implications in social situations and dynamics. And even still huge numbers of people just don’t vote, which means massive numbers of people understand that the system is fully irredeemable.
Oh fuck you’re an ml bot. Not worth engaging with. Buhbye MAGAtankie shitbird.
LOL
You’re right Zohran Mamdani didn’t win NYC mayor. Fuck off bad faith troll. Who you working for?
Sewer socialists have a long history of winning in the USA, and also of being outmaneuvered entirely by the fascists in both parties, purged, and having nearly all of their progress completely undone.
The purpose of those programs is to increase turnout, not cater to the political leanings of likely non-voters. Dems don’t give a shit what those people want they just want them to vote because statistically they would vote for Dems. The issues important to those voters rarely come up which is exactly my point.
I don’t really expect a well reasoned response from someone going around saying things like “Europe can save Ukraine by disbanding NATO” though. Pull your head out of Putin’s ass and have your own thoughts.
Well yeah, obviously bullies only bully the nerds because the Anti-Bully Club is so anti-bully. If the Anti-Bully Club just disbands instead of defending nerds, then the bullies will have no reason to keep bullying the nerds! Duhhh! (/s)
You’ll never get good faith engagement with ml so all you can do is try to piss em off and waste their time.
LOL. You’re fucking amazing. You came to the conclusion that voter turnout programs only exist because they want voters to vote for them but literally won’t do anything that those voters want? That’s your conclusion? You couldn’t reason your way out of a paper bag. Which makes sense because you think an American who has been raised by Americans in America and consumed all the same anti-Russian propaganda you have consumed our whole lives is somehow having someone else’s thoughts when they have thoughts that disagree with the propaganda you and I have both been raised on. You are doing the meme.
If Dems primary concern is the will of their voters then why are they constantly doing things the majority of their voting base disagrees with? You’re acting like Dems know exactly what the people want when the central political problem in America for the last 15 years is that they either don’t know or don’t care.
Also, if your own thoughts are not Russian propaganda then why is what you’re saying matching Russian propaganda word-for-word? Disbanding NATO doesn’t help anyone but Russia and somewhere in that brain of yours you know that. You’re twisting words to make unreasonable things sound reasonable on both of these issues
Disbanding NATO doesn’t help anyone but Russia and somewhere in that brain of yours you know that.
Pretty sure it would’ve helped the Libyans if the “defensive” alliance that waged an offensive war on them didn’t exist.
NATO is a tool of neocolonialism and there are countless neocolonies around the world that it harms. Even if it were “defensive” (which it absolutely isn’t) it maintains an oppressive status quo over the global majority and gives member states the ability to attack wantonly, without fear of retaliation.
Oh, sorry, so you’re saying Dems are constantly doing things their voting base disagrees with? So then why should people vote for them? You’re not making a strong argument for your position there.
You think Russian propaganda is the only source of anti-NATO sentiment in the entire world? Have you heard of Heusinger? Are you aware of the controversial decisions to staff NATO with Nazi officers? Heusinger was never even tried at Nuremberg.
No one is going to open a restaurant where the target market is “people who don’t go to restaurants”.
???
When you open a restaurant, the only target market is people who don’t go to your restaurant. Looking into how to expand your business to people who don’t already go to restaurants is absolutely a valid line of inquiry that companies persue all the time. Maybe the reason they don’t eat out because it’s too expensive, and you can appeal to them with lower prices. Maybe the reason they don’t eat out is because they don’t know how good your food is, and you can address that with free samples. Maybe they have dietary restrictions and you can appeal to them by adding vegan or gluten free options. Restaurants, like any business, are constantly looking for ways to break into new sections of the market. So your analogy falls completely flat.
Look at, for example, Little Caesars which at least back when I was in school had cheap ass $5 pizzas, they tasted like shit but they were $5 so being a broke ass college student I ate there all the time when I might otherwise have not eaten out at all. And that’s why they focused on keeping the price low instead of making it actually good. Because at $5, even groceries wouldn’t be much cheaper.
Likewise, if a political party is uninterested in appealing to people who don’t already vote for them, it must mean that they’re satisfied with their current level of support. Which, considering the Dems lost the last election, doesn’t exactly seem to be working. And what, do you think you’ll have better luck trying, again, to appeal to “moderate” Republicans? Let me know how that goes, lol.
People who don’t eat at restaurants at all are obviously not the same as people who don’t eat at a restaurant that doesn’t exist. You said you understood that concept but then spent the rest of your comment describing people who want to eat at restaurants.
This is what your commitment to your narrative has done to you. It has made you believe that there is a category of people who don’t vote because that is what they prefer, and you’re so committed that you are willing to make nonsense arguments that posit the existence of people who eat food but specifically will not and never will eat food if it’s in a restaurant.
Nothing about your narrative is reasonable. Give people something they want and they will pursue it
People who don’t eat at restaurants at all are obviously not the same as people who don’t eat at a restaurant that doesn’t exist.
Legitimately don’t understand this word salad.
You said you understood that concept but then spent the rest of your comment describing people who want to eat at restaurants.
Someone who doesn’t currently eat at restaurants might start eating at them if the restaurants find a way to appeal to them. That’s not a complicated concept.
If I’m vegan, and no restaurants in my area offer vegan options, then I am someone who doesn’t eat at restaurants at all. If a restaurant opens up that does offer vegan options, or if an existing restaurant adds a vegan option, then I might start eating at restaurants. Do you not understand this concept?
Likewise, someone who doesn’t vote might start voting if they’re appealed to. This is equally uncomplicated.
Neither party campaign’s on climate policy so the problem is the party, not the voter.
Yeah but it’s peak lib to blame voters for not voting hard enough, instead of demanding the bare minimum from those in power.
SMH
Instead of? You know it’s both, right? On public forums, you’re talking to voters so the proper action is encouraging their vote. When you make demands of those in power, you should be writing them directly, or congregating with others in protests that they’ll actually see.
What possible benefit do you get from making demands of people in power in the places they aren’t?
Things like, no more foreign wars, getting corruption out of office and government, free healthcare, free education, and reigning in corporations is supported by about 75-85% in our country.
Which parties run on those?
Not which one should we hope and vote for that will deliver, because right now, their promise is to “restore affordable care act tax credits” " address affordability" and “going after crooks”
Are we going to claim that the last two platitudes MEAN something?
If that is what so many Americans want, WHO IS THE DNC BASE?
The people in power don’t need to be informed more about what people want. They already know, they just don’t care.
In many cases, yeah absolutely. In others, the crazy side is a lot more vocal so that’s who the candidates cater too. Squeaky wheels and all that.
But my point stands, making demands only has a chance of accomplishing anything if you actually make them to the subject in question. Going to random forums, especially here, and making demands of politicians is silly at best, counterproductive at worst.
Probably because both party do not care about climate, they should still at least vote for the green
The green party is bankrolled by Russia, it exists exclusively as a spoiler for the democrats to trick the average low information voter.
Are green promising to give billions to Russia to help them invading ukraine? Because both parties did give billions to Israel to exterminate Palestinians. At the end of the day you support a one party system like china have
Oh yes, you can see by the voting records and what each party does with legislation to see they are exactly the same and both treat environmental issues exactly the same. I mean, if you ignore the voting records and what each party does, that is.
Yes, I can see that Republicans are honest about not caring about climate and the Democrats pretend to care. You seem to want a one party system like China
We only have one non-fascist party at the moment, so yeah. But you say that like anyone who prefers one party over another wants a one-party state like they don’t prefer one party over the other.
Find me non-fascist Republicans who are standing up for human rights and I’ll give them a shot, sure.
We only have one non-fascist party at the moment
No. We don’t. Both parties are fascist. The Nazis studied the American system to learn how to build the Third Reich. The ruling class funded the Nazis in Germany and in the US. The US had a huge Nazi movement domestically. Who got purged? The anti-fascist communists. The US has spent over a century purging communist anti-fascists from all forms of meaningful power - media, art, politics, business. There are no non-fascists left in power. It’s just two PR firms selling the same fascism. The Rs are openly racist and the Ds do literally nothing to stop them and in fact create the very systems required for over fascist actions. That’s two fascist parties with a Good Cop / Bad Cop routine.
Unsurprised you’re from .ml with that level of ignorance.
Please enlighten us with your Almighty knowledge Alexander Daychilde
Please show us how everyone that writes long and justified statements involving history and current events are only worthy of your almighty, “nuh-uh”
Posting history is public. I respond when it’s worth bothering.
Have fun explaining what’s “ignorant” about my grasp of history
My comment talked about voting for a third party , you completely ignored it and claiming that I support voting for republicans. You basically say yes vote for only one party like China have. You have two terrorists parties who destroyed multiple democracies and countries.
Because the Democrats also have a terrible climate policy?
They have reasonably positive policy, they just are as usual terrible at explaining activity.
The Biden-era Inflation Reduction Act had quite a bit of green incentives for regular people, and it created widespread solar and non-fossil-fuel home improvements that did (in my area at least) translate to a lot of green tech being installed, not just on-paper policy.
The GOP and Trump especially are irrationally hostile to green tech, and there are plenty of examples why they’re materially worse - paying again just to cancel an already-paid-for wind farm project for example.
So this isn’t really a “both sides suck” problem. One side has a slightly positive policy that could be a lot better. One side is in a psychotic delusional fugue and actively trying to destroy the planet.
You mean the same Biden that did more drilling for oil than Trump did? The same Biden that increased funding the the largest non-country polluting organization in the world?
What a hero! 🙄
Obama literally led the largest expansion of fossil fuel extraction in the history of the US.
So did trump, and then so did Biden, lol.
And yet the USA’s production and consumption based emissions decreased over his tenure. Seems like replacing foreign fuel shipped from across the world with domestic fuel is a climate win, but that doesn’t let you own the libz…
Yes, the majority of emissions reduced during the 8 years under Obama were because fracking drove down the cost of natural gas below the cost of coal. The market drove a reduction in a coal usage in favor of fracked natural gas. But of course, that’s what happens when the only thing you control for is the one variable that makes headlines.
Speaking of which, during the first 4 years of Obama’s fracking boom, no one was measuring the leaks, and leaks from natural gas wells are methane, which traps 8,600% of the energy that CO2 does. They didn’t even start trying to fix this until 2016, and of course those fixes were easily rolled back by Trump, because the Ds can always expand the harm, but they can’t ever seem to contain it.
They were terrible but I’d take a C- over the current F just saying. Not voting won’t make them care more about climate change, hearing it in primaries from engaged voting populace is what dictates policy. It’s why boomers had so much sway because they know they’ll vote.
When you are grading yourself and give yourself a C- and then talk about how thats good enough to get people off their couch in an election, then go ahead and add ‘misunderstanding how to compete in an election’ to your list of problems.
Didn’t say it was good enough. Said it was better, why would moving in the direction I don’t want help, I said both, you seem be saying neither.
Because minor concessions are obvious pandering without real benefit. Give incentives to buy EVs, sure, go for it. But if you expand the military and fossil fuel extraction and then launch wars where you’re dropping bombs all over the world it doesn’t really matter how many tax breaks you give to EV buyers.
As apposed to dropping even more bombs and not being any incentives, and like I said you don’t stop there, that’s the start, you still protest, you still advocate for direct action. One does not proclude the other
Historically, neither party has been a fewer bombs kind of party, and both parties have had their moments of conservation and environmental destruction, and their moments of expanding rights and destroying them.
I do understand the idea of a plurality of strategies. I just think that people need to understand which strategies actually have effects. Allowing people to believe in fairy tales is a recipe for disempowerment. Much like praying for a cancer cure, voting is one of those things that makes you feel better about yourself without actually achieving anything
There are material differences between the parties, pretending their policy is the exact same isn’t enlightenment it’s delusion. People should hold specifically institutional democrats accountable for stifling progress I’m with you there but the only thing not voting ever got us was less time to work with and worse conditions to do it in.
You’re arguing with a russian propaganda bot, their whole account is bad faith shit.
C- is drastically better than the Dems environmental policies and practices. They were absolutely F
No corporate donors and support dictate policy.
We got public healthcare in Canada through direct political action, respectfully there is room for both strategies.
Maybe if people championed the good Democrats instead of spreading bullshit meant to encourage not voting and votes for Russian assets, Democrats would start getting better overall. Nah we should probably just go full tankie on this shit and pretend to be surprised when that doesn’t help anything.
As an anarchist you people need to stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a “tankie” you’ve made it absolutely meaningless.
If you’re actually an anarchist you’re not even part of the conversation so what the fuck are you doing here? Go do anarchy you fucking larper.
I think a more interesting question would be, regardless of someone’s priorities, why they don’t vote.
Report 1: https://www.uniteamerica.org/articles/report-most-americans-votes-dont-matter-in-deciding-elections
Report 2: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy
The second one is the real whale and is from 2014, so extrapolate how much worse it is now.
Thanks for these great links. Some thought provoking insights.
I did vote so this isn’t my personal opinion. I’ve been told many times it’s “voting for the lesser of two evils, they’re both evil and I don’t agree with either.” There’s no real sense of choice. I can see it. It very much feels like that South Park episode where they have to vote for the school mascot. Do you want it to be a Giant Douche or, a Turd Sandwich? And then at the end it was all for nothing because they don’t change their mascot so it was all pointless.
Edit: you guys can call me stupid all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that I’ve heard this from coworkers and family repeatedly. I did vote. In fact, I’ve already voted in my primaries. The question was “why don’t people vote?” I gave the answer of why I personally have been told by people they don’t vote. Not liking my answer doesn’t change the reality of it. I work in blue collar work. It’s a very common view in my area. Or, they are pro Trump.
My personal opinion on why they don’t vote or, don’t vote in favor of things they support, they generally don’t want to take the time to educate themselves. And for others, they don’t want to feel responsible for voting when their candidate turns out to be nothing like they promised.
Hey heads up the “both sides” argument makes anyone who says it sound fantastically silly and at worse stupid.
No, it makes them sound informed. Saying that “The one party who keeps openly destroying the environment is sooooo much better than the other party who keeps openly destroying the environment” is what makes anyone who says it sound fantastically silly and at worse stupid.
The question was “why don’t they vote like it?” I answered the question from what I’ve been told by multiple coworkers and family. I didn’t say, “this is my opinion.” In fact, I said this is not my opinion and I did vote. Just because you don’t like the answer, doesn’t mean a lot of people don’t believe that. I think it’s a terrible argument personally however, the question didn’t ask my opinion, it was asking why those people don’t vote like it. I simply shared what has been told directly to me by the people who refuse to vote.
I strongly disagree. I certainly understand why this idea has risen to the forefront, but I find this mentality to be far more obtuse than attempting to flesh out the nuance of a situation. Assessing both sides of an argument is of utmost importance. Qualifying the pursuit of more accurate information as “stupid” is peak irony.
I know, the internet is full of bots and rabble rousers. No doubt they are directed at divisive issues and engage in “both sides” messaging to cast doubt on popular sentiment and advance some propaganda. This is annoying and a real problem, but the wholesale rejection of valid observation or analysis, with reactive, myopic aphorisms is precisely the type of response that allows propaganda to continue its insidious spread.
An evident tactic of propagandists is to flood the zone with emotional binaries. It seeds chaos, disrupts chain of thought, and invokes group selection posturing. I believe the “smart/dumb” binary to be one of the most powerful, and engaging with it, even if one thinks they are on the right “side”, disrupts and obfuscates the pursuit of truth.
There’s a very good reason for the sentiment and why people feel such a sense of dejection and apathy. Then it gets met with smug ripostes like the “bOtH sIdEs” spongetext shit or plain mockery as if it’s something that just appeared out of nowhere.
It’s just typical Democrat arrogance assuming that they are entitled to peoples votes without having to offer any material change, it also ties into why progressive and leftist candidates have to struggle to break through because they’re fighting their own party first and foremost before they even get to fighting Republicans.
Hello three day old account trying to dissuade voter turnout! If progressives and leftists voted in primaries we’d have a progressive leftist Democratic party, but progressives and leftists don’t vote for the most part. But you know that since you’re not here in good faith anyway. The phrase “typical democrat arrogance” gives you away, gotta stop using your fox news terms MAGAt.
Hello three day old account
I’ve been on Lemmy for longer than your account has existed, account age doesn’t mean anything.
trying to dissuade voter turnout
No I’m not. You’re just reading what you want to read.
If progressives and leftists voted in primaries we’d have a progressive leftist Democratic party, but progressives and leftists don’t vote for the most part.
Complete nonsense.
But you know that since you’re not here in good faith anyway.
That’s rich coming from you with this complete stinker of a comment.
The phrase “typical democrat arrogance” gives you away, gotta stop using your fox news terms MAGAt.
lol pure desperation.
Yeah, I can honestly empathize with the people who believe this. Everything feels exhausting, overwhelming, and like nothing will ever change. Unfortunately for the people of that opinion though, NOT voting will ensure nothing changes. Or rather, that you had no hand in changing anything. Because everything will change eventually for good or bad.
Not even that is true. Women fought for the right to vote without voting and they won. Black people fought for the right to vote without voting and they won. Voting doesn’t change anything, it turns out. What changes things is when politicians writ large stand to lose something bigger than their seat, like control over society.
Voting matters. So does fighting for rights. It’s not one or the other.
Can you find where in history people voted themselves out of fascism? I think there was on case in central America but they kicked out because the leader died
That’s so defeatist. It makes you feel like you’re smart by saying that and thinking you’re privy to something but it’s just totally passive and does nothing. If all the people who said that actually organized and made a plan, there would be a sizable number of people who could actually make a difference.
Did you even read what I wrote? This is not my opinion, this is what I have been told. I don’t think this is correct and that these people are honestly just being lazy and don’t want to take responsibility for their vote.
No shit, my response was in reference to the people you were referring to. Did you take the “you” part as literal? I was agreeing with you. Take it down a notch with the defensiveness.
Listen, existential threats are important and all, but there’s a trans kid who wants to play soccer, and I vaguely remember something about a tan suit, so… I think I’ll just sit this one out - surely my countrymen can be trusted to make the right decision!
Gotta have standards, ya know?
Can you find ANYONE that has those arguments for this discussion?
Otherwise, thanks for the strawmen I guess
The GOP brand is practically solid gold. No matter how shitty their members keep being, the average American voter will still see the party as reasonable and worthy of power. Massachusetts is the bluest of blue states but ask a neolib about a past republican government and they will talk about them like they were the only voice of reason. Complete disregard for the fact all of them left beind a fucking mess in lock step with their parties destructive principles and policy.
US Americans are mostly fuck-ignorant, half of us are functionally illiterate, nevermind media or political literacy. Just look at this thread.
Hard not to contrast it against today’s shit show. Even Bush seems reasonable when you hold him against Trump. People are literally getting nostalgic for less bad. Still bad, just less bad.
You can really tell it’s election season, every thread on 4chan and reddit is about trans people in sports. Bots heavily pushing it.
