i could rant about this forever, i dont care how it is called, i just want everybody to work together, sharing the resources, to make a better world for everyone.
while capitalism is just everybody fighting for themself, trying to greedly obtain as much stuff as possible, trying to make their own lives better as first, constantly looking for the next grift to get more.
everybody has been scammed by some lie that competition is needed. Or that rich people are needed.
These propagandized individuals are emotionally manipulated to hate communists and see them as dangerous by capitalist institutions, but they are in no way, shape, or form exposed to the ideas that communists express in an impartial manner.
I’d argue that it is rare that understanding is properly conveyed through labels. People attach their own understanding to labels - and these propagandized individuals are conditioned to believe they understand communists, but in reality they are just trained to dehumanize and hate communists. They don’t understand.
So, how does this dynamic shift?
What seems to work best is being honest, consistent, and up-front about our views. We must never tire of explaining the same basic concepts. When orgs try to distance themselves from socialist countries, or labels like “communist,” they come across as dishonest when their views are exposed, backfiring.
When the conditions of capitalism and imperialism decay, more and more of the working classes become less opposed and more open to socialism and communism. Our job is to try to bring these newly radicalized people to proper orgs and proper study. I made an intro Marxist-Leninist reading list for just such a purpose.
I argue that the first steps to creating broad coherence with others involves encouraging independent thought/critical thinking, emphasizing our shared humanity and desire for a better world for everyone, and subtly working to reduce polarization (such as conditioned fear/hate/dehumanization of others) in any way possible.
I understand this is a ML space and I respect your ideology, but I have to point out that it isn’t the only socialist ideology - and it’s a fairly polarizing one at that. What could be done to help bridge the gap among socialists, even just here on the fediverse?
Critical thinking is necessary, but that’s not really something we socialists have any power over in the broad populace. It’s largely a product of education, combined with the lessons being in a given class teaches us. I try to do my best to explain that I want a better world, but that also requires being honest and forthright with me being a communist, and explaining exactly what that means and why.
As for Marxism-Leninism, I’d argue its controversy mostly stems from it being the branch with the most actual existence in the real world. Bridging the gap to other socialists, for me, involves demystifying it and trying to explain the basics of it theoretically. I try to explain what I can, where and when I can, and that has seen a good deal of success.
Critical thinking is necessary, but that’s not really something we socialists have any power over in the broad populace.
I believe that we all have the power to educate others to think for themselves and to think critically. It may not be as substantive and impactful as we’d like from a single interaction, but it’s nothing to write off. I feel that there is a lot of untapped potential for all of us to realize, especially with the use of modern technology.
The internet is an truly an amazing thing for humanity. I just have to point out the work r/LateStageCapitalism has done to educate and inform others over the years. Many people have likely been radicalized due to their work (i.e. encouraged to think for themselves and see beyond mainstream narratives) and I’m pretty sure it’s a ML space, as well.
It’s easy to see that traditional institutions are losing trust broadly and that mainstream media is falling off. The narrative seems very difficult for those currently in power to both spread and control the perception of.
I try to do my best to explain that I want a better world, but that also requires being honest and forthright with me being a communist, and explaining exactly what that means and why.
I value your example and honesty. I have witnessed many interactions between you and other people on the fediverse and I applaud your efforts and diplomacy.
As for Marxism-Leninism, I’d argue its controversy mostly stems from it being the branch with the most actual existence in the real world.
Most people here on the fediverse loosely agree on what needs to change, but most of the disagreement I feel comes from the methodology of bringing about that change. I’d say there is a time and place to discuss methodology or introduce people into specific ideology, but getting people to realize a better world is possible is something we can all work broadly work towards and I feel there is a lot of value in that sort of action.
I absolutely agree that online spaces are an excellent way to educate and radicalize. Agitprop is extremely useful, in fact I support trying to move people from corporate media to federated, FOSS media as we can’t be as easily censored here. I don’t think skills like critical thinking can be taught online without the person already trying to develop such skills, but agitprop helps them reconsider if they need to research more.
As for the fediverse, I think the big 3 positions are anarchism, liberalism, and Marxism-Leninism, at least on Lemmy. Some people sit on the outskirts of those, but ML has a supermajority among Marxists here, as an example. I think it’s best therefore to be upfront and not try to cage my views, obscure them, etc, but to try to meet people where they are at and gently push them to where they can learn more if they so choose. That’s the best way I can think of.
Thanks for engaging, I largely agree with you and really appreciate your responses. I’m glad we finally had the opportunity to talk.
No problem, thanks for the convo!
So, how does this dynamic shift?
One key point is to break conformism. People were and are brainwashed to hate “communism” on top of being brainwashed to conform to society. To hate the enemy is a recurring theme in the system, in our case it takes the form of communists but it can be anything else.
inb4 libs come to smugly tell us we are murderous fascists.
last week, i was queer tankie for interjecting on anti-chinese pink washing propaganda
fortunately, i’ve learned what to expect from the diet-reddit instance of the lemmyverse and it so bizarre that pink washing works for china, but not isreal when it comes to palestine.
Erm akshutally how is it possible to care for human life without maximizing shareholder profit, in this 10,000,000 page peer reviewed study (sponsored by megacorp™) I will prove that you are wrong and I am good
It wasn’t by megacorp, it was by a think tank sponsored by a consultancy hired by megacorp to do exactly that. Stop blaming megacorp for everything. You people are so fucking conspiratorial.
Oh sorry, I will stop asking questions and keep consooming product™ from megacorp™
erhm i’ll let you know that the soviet onion killed six hundred million bajillion stalinnion people so ☝️🤓
Carl Mark keel 10,000 Marxillion people venevuala no iphone north corea
I love that you misspelled Marx but then wrote Marxillion, I live for shitposts like this lmao
As much as we might disagree about things and eventually have to kill each other when you inevitably betray the revolution and try to kill me for not being reactionary enough, I’d far prefer your world to theirs.
It wasn’t the Marxists betraying the revolution, though. There’s genuinely no need for anarchists and Marxists to kill each other, the idea that Marxists always “betray” anarchists comes from the examples of some anarchists choosing to take up arms against socialist states and being killed by the Marxists. There are numerous examples of the opposite happening, and many of anarchists joining the bolsheviks and other communist parties out of sheer practicality. The subsection of anarchists that were killed by Marxists weren’t killed “for not being reactionary enough,” but for quite literally being reactionary and choosing to attack socialist states.
Yeah you’re right I guess words don’t mean things.
Words do mean things, I don’t know what you’re getting at here.
we don’t want to kill anyone. though police forces might be deployed to try and stop us.
we don’t want regular people dead, far from it. we want you to join us against the ones who oppress us. shit, we are ok with you doing whatever you think it’s effective as long as you don’t side with fascists like libs sometimes do.
Missing the point.
The point is you’ll backstab us?
i try to always go straight to the point.
Real.
Pretty much yeah
Lol. Have fun searching the cosmos for a world where conscious beings only take what they need.
BRB going to take all of the napkins, fire sauce, and salt packets next time I go to Taco Bell because “human nature”
I mean that’s literally why you have to ask for those things from behind the counter now. That literally proves my point.
No, it doesn’t lol. There are still open sauce packets and napkins. People don’t have endless greed for that which they don’t need, especially if their needs are already met by strong safety nets like they are in socialist countries. Even in capitalist hellholes like the US, you still find restaurants with free napkins and plastic utensils, etc, and people don’t generally grab as many as they can.
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Where do you live where they aren’t?
I go to gas stations, fast food places, everywhere has napkins and sauce packets.
Oops, completely forgot I was posting in .ml
Is it a sign up condition on .world that you have to post some variation of this mantra every single time you see the letters .ml? It seems to be a deeply ingrained compulsion to you people.
The US.
Mmmm.
.ml censorship. The Reddit of Lemmy.
Anybody have any meme community recommendations that are funny and not just communist propaganda
Sorry, only fun communist memes here.
How do you force people to give according to their ability? What if they don’t want to?
That’s not what people mean by saying “from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.” There’s no Robin Hood figure robbing people at gunpoint. What it means is that all of production and distribution is collectivized and run according to a common plan in order to satisfy everyone’s needs.
This question comes from the “what if everyone just wants to do nothing” to justify the existence of a system in which if you are not able to work you die.
Everyone is guaranteed a job, so if they don’t want to then they will just have less money to go around, or maybe they wouldn’t even need to if what they did is automated. However, regardless of whether they work or not, they are guaranteed food and housing. So they just get to do whatever they want. In a communist system someone livelihood is not tied to a job.
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“A good example is [made up bullshit]”
Wow, very compelling.
Great reply, no worries they removed my comment so you can feel safe now.
Good. Go back to Reddit
I never was on reddit.
You’d like it
Don’t you mean genocide? Lazy liberals can’t even keep their made up zenz story straight.
What happens when someone doesn’t pay taxes today?
They get elected President.
Then they can go live in a country where you can take from society and contribute nothing back.
Communist centrally planned economies suck. That’s how you end up with panicking factory and farm managers exaggerating their production to the state to not end up in the gulag. A better alternative could be petitioning the government for money to start a worker-owned co-op that produce things at quantities that people would actually want. Do that and keep the government democratic composed of different parties with socialist mindsets at their heart and things should be better for all without the baggage of authoritarianism.
Central planning has been remarkably effective at achieving economic growth while directing production and distribution to satisfy the needs of the many. The USSR and PRC are examples of some of the fastest growing economies in the world, and are both responsible for the largest eradications of poverty in history.
Cooperatives are cool in the context of capitalism, or early stages of socialism (they are prominent in the PRC currently). However, as they grow, the profit motive forces enshittification and predatory practices, which is why producing for the purposes of needs over profits is superior.
As for multi-party systems, it’s generally better to practice unity and avoid factionalism and splitting. Western democracy is notoriously terrible at providing a cohesive system supported by the many, while socialist democracies like the PRC are supported by over 90% of the population.
Communist centrally planned economies suck.
Oh, hey. I know this one. It’s the reason we’re not allowed to do anything about Climate Change.
Imagine what will happen if a President Elizabeth Warren bans fracking in places like Texas, North Dakota, Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania; in Texas alone, by some estimates, 1 million jobs would be lost. Overall, according to a Chamber of Commerce report, a full ban would cost 14 million jobs—far more than the 8 million lost in the Great Recession. And the environment itself would be somewhat of a loser in this game—natural gas has done more to reduce emissions than all the greens’ efforts.
Across the world, green-backed policies have hurt the working class far more than the affluent rich who most enthusiastically embrace them. The militant Extinction Rebellion—which the online magazine Spiked has described as “an upper-middle-class death cult”—has tried to disrupt commuters in Britain in their drive to “save the planet” but has earned more angry contempt than support from harried workers. Though cast by the media as heroic outsiders, greens have historically clustered in elite academic, nonprofit, media, and corporate sectors. The influential Limits to Growth, published in 1972 by the Club of Rome, was backed by major corporate interests, led by Fiat’s Aurelio Peccei. The authors’ long-term vision, based on the notion that the planet was running out of resources at a rapid rate, was to create “a carefully controlled balance” that would restrict growth, particularly in advanced countries.
We aren’t allowed to plan anything. We aren’t allowed to regulate anything. We aren’t allowed to prosecute anyone above a certain income level. We aren’t allowed to unionize or collectively bargin, especially if we’re public employees. We’re not even allowed to directly vote for the office of the Presidency, because that’s Populism and we all know what happens when popularly elected governments start managing their own economic future.
A better alternative could be petitioning the government for money
Ah yes. Just ask your team of highly placed lobbyists to get Free Money From The Government to privatize the profits and socialize the costs. When has that ever gone wrong?
Pretty sure people hate tankies because they defend dictators like Putin and Jinping, not because they want socialism.
When you start denying genocide, it doesn’t matter how good your economic policy is.
Anyway, Slava Ukraini.
Communists critically support Russia insofar as they oppose western imperialism and ally with socialist countries and the global south. Communists support popular leaders like Xi Jinping, and the PRC in general, because of the tremendous strides they’ve made in uplifting the working classes in their countries. Not sure what you’re referring to here by saying “genocide denial.”
The PRC has a dictator that has written himself into the country’s constitution and has a profound level of abject poverty, with 20% of the population living on less than $7/day. It is better than it was in the 70s, though, back when they were actually communist. Now they have a massive private sector. Weird that the two changes line up, right?
The Uyghurs, btw.
The Uyghurs, btw.
Its so crazy to see liberals insist that Uyghur Genocide is a big problem that requires US military intervention but the Israeli Very Legal And Good Police Action Against Hamas For October 7th is going great and actually Palestinians should be thanking the IDF for all their hard work.
Like, what even is your definition of genocide anymore? I’ve seen liberals insist that the Uyghurs are being brutalized by a Chinese government building schools that teach Mandarian in the rural corners of Xinjiang. I’ve seen liberals insist a Taiwanese BDSM porn was proof that China’s police state was in violation of a dozen different treaties and conventions. I’ve seen Tibetian life expectancy double over the last 40 years and then received an earful about how the Tibetian ethnic government was doing terrorism by importing modern Chinese TVs, Radios, and Computers with Mandarian language broadcasts into the region.
Meanwhile, you’ve got liberals insisting Greta Thunberg is the antichrist when she tries to deliver baby formula to the Gaza shoreline.
Absolute obliteration of the western understanding of the term. Israelis tortured an orthopedic surgeon to death and there’s absolutely no news coverage of it. Bolsonaro butchers native people in Brazil so he can clear cut their rainforests and the liberals still back him. The Philippines is just an endless string of police actions against union organizers and nobody cares. But Kenya gets a new hospital and that’s Chinese genocide in West Africa.
- I’m not a liberal, I’m a democratic socialist
- I didn’t say we needed to invade China, but good to see your response to genocide is whataboutism, that good old Russian misinformation tactic seems to be alive and well
- fuck Israel, fuck Hamas, fuck the Arab league, and fuck the IDF.
I’m not a liberal, I’m a democratic socialist
fuck Israel, fuck Hamas, fuck the Arab league
Okay, but how can I be racist if I hate everyone in the Middle East, huh? Huh?!
I don’t hate everyone in the middle east, I hate warmongers all over the globe.
Are you saying everyone in the middle east is part of these organizations dedicated to genocide? Pretty fuckin’ racist, man.
I don’t hate everyone in the middle east
Name one good Arab.
Are you saying everyone in the middle east is part of these organizations
I’m saying you know virtually nothing about the region, you’re just regurgitating the bigotry you’ve been force fed since kindergarten.
You’re repeating liberal narratives and attacking socialist democracies, so it’s understandable that you’re being identified as a liberal. Same with you both sidesing a literal genocide but repeating fascist slogans.
China and Russia aren’t socialist, if they were socialist then the workers would own the means of production.
They’re both just capitalist oligarchies with dictators who disappear their enemies and fake elections.
China is socialist, public ownership is the principle aspect of its economy and controls the commanding heights of industry. Even if you’re (wrongly) defining socialism as cooperative ownership, the PRC has one of the largest cooperative sectors in the world, though it’s subservient to their public sector. Huawei is an example of a cooperative. They have real elections and real democracy.
Russia is a capitalist country, yes. It’s supported insofar as they align themselved with socialist countries and the global south, as well as having increasing numbers of those supportive of returning to socialism.
if they were socialist then the workers would own the means of production
Google “China Negative List Foreign Investment”. You might learn something about how Chinese federal laws guarantee domestic ownership of property and titles and understand why so much of the wealth generated within China remains within the Chinese working class.
They’re both just capitalist oligarchies with dictators
Is there a country in exist that you believe is Actually Existing Socialism, or are you going to shove your fingers in your ears and insist SEOs aren’t real, state central planning isn’t happening, democratic elections don’t count, and Marx didn’t say anything about the socialist transition in his writings.
Says the Ukrainian ultra nationalist
It’s extremely fucking telling that your response to Israel’s genocide is “fuck both sides!” But you response to the Ukraine war is to become a Nazi slogan shouting Ukrainian ultra nationalist.
Yeah man, Russia definitely invented the concept of pointing out blatant hypocrisy.
I’m not a liberal, I’m a democratic socialist
“I’m not a liberal, i’m a ✨Liberal✨”
Xi Jinping is a popularly supported and democratically elected leader. China has eliminated absolute poverty, and year over year is making rapid strides in improving living conditions across the board thanks to their socialist system. They never stopped being a socialist country led by communists, they pivoted strategy.
In the People’s Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn’t steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing’s faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized:
Deng’s plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.
China’s rapidly improving productive forces and cheap labor ended up being an irresistable match for US financial capital, even though the CPC maintained full sovereignty. This is in stark contrast to how the global north traditionally acts imperialistically, because it relies on financial and millitant dominance of the global south. This is why there is a “love/hate” relationship between the US Empire and PRC, the US wants more freedom for capital movement while the CPC is maintaining dominance.
Fast-forward to today, and the benefits of the CPC’s gamble are paying off. The US Empire is de-industrializing, while China is a productive super-power. The CPC has managed to maintain full control, and while there are neoliberals in China pushing for more liberalization now, the path to exerting more socialization is also open, and the economy is still socialist. It is the job of the CPC to continue building up the productive forces, while gradually winning back more of the benefits the working class enjoyed under the previous era, developing to higher and higher stages of socialism.
And no, China is not commiting genocide. The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this. Even with all of the real complexities, though, nothing material measures up to claims of genocide.
Xi Jinping is a popularly supported and democratically elected leader
Lol
Anyway, that’s a lot of words to say they lifted urban populations out of poverty by embracing market economics while ignoring the existence of rural populations.
I literally linked The Metamphosis of Yuangudui, a formerly extremely poor rural village. The Poverty Eradication Program was focused on the rural areas. They use controlled markets to govern the medium and small firms while relying on massive state owned enterprises to form the backbone of their economy, which has allowed them to directly uplift those in rural areas left behind by the rapid advances of urban industrialization.
The Uyghurs, btw.
btw, previously:
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once its efforts failed, it made lemonade out of its lemon by concocting and promoting a genocide narrative.
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same ones supporting Israel’s genocide.
Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves.
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330 #HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
Hello I am from turkey and there is a constant uygur propaganda here. Uygurs are turks so turkish nationalists always say that “palestine is not that important, our turkish brothers are being genocided. You traitors are always side with arabs and never with turks”
Actually most of the uyghurs are jihadist and some of them have joined isis at syria. At the past jihadist uyghurs were driving their cars onto chinese people to kill them. I had twitter evidence videos about it but i closed my accounts.Some of them certainly are Wahabi-aligned jihadists. If most in Syria are, that’s news to me, but I’m sure that few in China are.
most of these are jihadist nevertheless if they are wahabi-aligned or not. There is a new strong movement among yough turkish people called “secular nationalists”. they ate mostly racist, kemalist and self identified seculars, anti arabisc people. Because to them arab = islam.
Any uyghur is more muslim and jihadist than any turkish jihadist but they like to says uygurs are important palestinians are not.
As an atheist since 2017 pro-kurdistan socialist turk this is a propaganda I am NOT falling for.Any uyghur is more muslim and jihadist than any turkish jihadis
Perhaps, of the Uyghurs you’ve met, this is true, but how many native-Xinjiang Uyghurs have you met? This sounds like a gross over-generalization. I’m sure that some of them are as atheist as you, me, and the CPC.
Some of the things about the Uyghur genocide are lie btw. Like “china has gulags for uyghurs”. China has education camps for people indeed but it is being solely for uyghurs is a blantant lie told by the media.
Any crime that is against humanity is unacceptable. I am telling this to mean “not everything you see objectively, without its propganada value is true” and not to mean "uygur genocide is good i am a nazi asshole turkophobic/uyghurphobic ".
When you start denying genocide, it doesn’t matter how good your economic policy is.
Perfect example of propagandized individuals hating communists because of propaganda.
I deny lots of genocides. For example, when Elon Musk talks about the “white genocide” I deny that. But somehow libs have gotten it in their heads that claims of genocide get to bypass all standards of evidence and fact-checking, because if you don’t immediately accept it without evidence, it means you’re a genocide denier, a bad person, basically a fascist who shouldn’t even be engaged with (conveniently averting the need to provide evidence). The state is more than happy to exploit this nonsense by putting out claims of genocide with zero credible evidence, because they know you’ll do this.
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No, I would like actual sources.
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Did you ask an AI? You’re prominently featuring Adrian Zenz, a paid propagandist for the Victims of Communism foundation that has been caught fabricating evidencd and lying numerous times. He claims China is the antichrist and that he was sent by God to stop them. This is a farce.
I gave you the effort you were worth 🤷
I am so shocked you claim the person saying the thing you don’t like is a capitalist pig-dog liar
Here’s his page on the Victims of Communism website. The Victims of Communism Foundation is a US State Department created propaganda outlet, and Adrian Zenz in particular has been caught lying and fabricating evidence numerous times. You’re upholding a US State Department funded, far-right Christian nationalist, anti-communist propagandist. It’s time to turn off Fox News.
I’m so shocked that you’re completely dismissing the possibility that Zenz is a capitalist pig-dog liar, when it’s very obvious to anyone who knows anything about him that he is.
Can I also get a recipe for chicken noodle soup?
You just asked an AI to assemble a list of sources, which you haven’t actually read or examined. Now I’m expected to go through each of them, putting in substantially more work in order to refute them. Work which you will most likely disregard anyway. You didn’t even bother to provide links, so apparently I’m supposed to hunt these documents down myself.
Give me two to three sources, that you have actually read, that specifically call it a genocide, that don’t come from the US government (or other Western governments), and also don’t rely on far-right crackpot Adrian Zenz.
I gave you the effort I thought you deserved 👍
if you don’t immediately accept it without evidence, it means you’re a genocide denier, a bad person, basically a fascist who shouldn’t even be engaged with (conveniently averting the need to provide evidence).
As usual, by failing to accept a claim made without evidence, I have proven that I don’t “deserve” real evidence. Funny how that works, isn’t it? I mean, if you think about it, if you were wrong, you’d never find out, since you never seriously look at the evidence.
Some of us actually practice something called, “critical thinking.”
Anyway, are you unaware of the fascist origins of “Slava Ukraini,“ or are you using it despite knowing better?
always the seig heil at the end with you freaks
Jinping
You fucking moron
people hate tankies because they defend dictators
Broke: Defending Dictators
Woke: Regime Change
Around here we don’t fuck with Tankies. We only take you seriously if you’re on an aircraft carrier that just finished carpet bombing the Middle East.
Me when I get so mad that someone doesn’t like Xi Jinping that I prolapse
When your country is shit, that’s all you can really think about.
Tankies are just authoritarians wearing a leftist outfit. It doesn’t matter what labels or symbols they claim, I wouldn’t consider them part of the left, and they shouldn’t be tolerated in leftist spaces either IMHO.
Marxists are absolutely leftists, and are in charge of history’s most significant and largest leftist systems.
So all marxists are tankies? Marxism is incompatible with anti-authoritarianism?
Kinda? Tankie is just a pejorative for Marxist or anti-imperialist, generally. It’s a strawman with exaggerated characteristics that anti-communists fling at people to avoid actually listening to what they have to say.
As far as “authoritarianism” is concerned, all Marxists support the working class wielding its authority against capitalists, fascists, etc.
The transition from capitalism to socialism will nearly always be through revolution. It simply isn’t feasible to ask the ruling class to give up the very system that entitles them to their plunder, elections are carefully controlled so as to not allow genuine socialist or communist victory. Even when communists like Allende won in countries like Chile, they are couped, just like the US is attempting against Maduro. Revolution is authoritarian, it’s the forceful will of the majority against the minority. As Engels put it:
Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is. It is the act by which one part of the population imposes its will on the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannons — by the most authoritarian means possible; and the victors, if they do not want to have fought in vain, must maintain this rule by means of the terror which their arms inspire in the reactionaries. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if the communards had not used the authority of the armed people against the bourgeoisie? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach them for not having used it enough?
Historically, revolution has unfolded the same way, as the majority enforcing its will upon the minority. The French Revolution, Russian Revolution, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cuban, Korean, etc have all been such examples. They have been enormously liberating for the working classes, and terribly authoritarian towards capitalists, landlords, fascists, colonizers, etc. I’m not going to erase that that violence happened, but I’m not going to minimize that these were and are popular movements supported by the broad majority either. None of these countries are utopias, but all are real, with real working class victories.
Socialism is a mode of production, characterized by public ownership being the principle aspect of the economy. The western European countries don’t have socialism, they have social safety nets within the boundaries of capitalism. They fund these safety nets with the spoils of imperialism, ie international plunder of the global south, not through their own labor. The USSR, PRC, Vietnam, etc are socialist, not western Europe, and moreover do not depend on imperialism for their safety nets. Western Europe is not moving onto communism because it isn’t even socialist yet, and is under the dictatorship of capitalists.
Communism is a mode of production where all of production and distribution has been collectivized and run according to a common plan. It’s stateless, classless, and moneyless. It is post-socialist in that socialism is where production and distribution are gradually collectivized, erasing the basis for class, and the basis of the state as a consequence. Personal property remains, ie you can keep your toothbrush, but production and distribution are collectivized.
If you want a good introduction to Marxist theory, I wrote an intro Marxist-Leninist reading list. Feel free to check it out!
Thanks for the rundown. I don’t subscribe to either Marxism or Leninism full-cloth. Although I do have a real appreciation of the scientific approach of Marxist dialectical theory in particular, I’m more of an anarchist in nature. I sincerely appreciate the dialogue, though. While I’m here, I should note that it’s not just anti-communists who use the word “tankies” as a pejorative; we use it in our communities as well. I’ll let you figure that one out, though. Cheers
When I say “anti-communist,” I generally mean those who would use pejoratives against Marxists, I’m aware anarchists use it as well as liberals.
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So, we just ignoring the tens of millions of deaths under communism?
I mean we are ignoring the tens of millions of deaths under capitalism, so why not?
Compared to the shitload of capitalism only this year?
Communists acknowledge that excess deaths have occured under socialist systems governed by communist parties. It’s reality, after all. However, we also acknowledge that these excess deaths pale in comparison to the systemic murders and genocides propogated by capitalism, as well as the fact that socialist systems have been responsible for doubling life expectancy in many cases such as Russia and China, along with huge material gains in quality of life.
It’s true that excess deaths occured, but it’s even more true that socialism has been responsible for preventing far more deaths than it has ever caused. Deaths due to unintentional famines were common in early socialism, and systemically ended by socialists when they used to be prevalent under previous semi-feudal conditions. Communists have consistently been the ones most responsible for uplifting living standards and metrics in the last century.
authorian regime kills its citizen
“guys working together just does not work” ^^ this guy
Socialist states have had excesses, but they pale in comparison to the killings systemic to capitalism, and moreover socialist states have been responsible for the largest uplifting in living standards in history.
My point was more like that authoriatarianism and socialism/ communism does not habe to be connected
All socialist states will have to use authority, though, in order to disempower capitalists and fascists, and protect the gains of the revolution. Capitalists will see this as authoritarian, but it’s also liberating for the working classes. States don’t just wield power for the sake of it, they are thoroughly connected to class struggle and as such class analysis needs to be at the core of understanding authority.
well sry i dont know what i mean. I mean authoriatarianism as in, using the power of the state and laws and whatever to keep a select few in power, who are above the laws, while also using the power of the state to fullfill whatever intrestest some group of people have.
like a dicatorship or a kingdom
while i dont mean like democratic authority (whitout it beeing opression/ more then nessasary opressing)
Okay, sure, but we aren’t talking about capitalism but existing/formerly existing socialist states like the USSR, PRC, Cuba, etc. That doesn’t apply to those.
how was the Ussr not a dictatorship
I don’t think promoting these sentiments does anything but propagandise an “us vs them” mentality that is fundamentally toxic to the idea of communism.
“Four legs good, two legs bad” is all, I am gonna say.
Class struggle is intrinsic to communism, it’s important to show the working classes that our collective enemy isn’t each other, but the capitalists and the capitalist state. We need to align the working classes against our shared class enemy, not try to ally with those who support the systems supporting our class enemies.
Thanks for proving my point. Your “us vs them” thinking caused you to confuse “propagandised individuals” with “capitalist” and ignore the big difference between both.
“Capitalist” is a class that in communism doesn’t exist. So consequently, after the implementation of communism there is no enemy of the class “capitalist” anymore. So again, communism would serve all people.
“Propagandised individuals” wouldn’t disappear after the implementation of communism. They can be discriminate against.
I’m referring to communism as the movement, not as communism the mode of production. In the far future where communism is achieved, there wouldn’t be individuals propagandized against communism, the lengthy process of getting there is through socialism by which point those contradictions are worked out.
In the present day, capitalists are the enemy of the working classes. Trying to unite the working classes against them and their enablers, ie the GOP, DNC, etc, is a progressive struggle.
As if the rhetoric of today has no influence on the rhetoric of tomorrow.
But even in this very short sighted context, the conflation of “propagandised individuals” and “capitalist” is obviously toxic to the aim of archiving communism.
I will take a wild guess that you have many friends who are raised in capitalistic environments and who have been exposed to anti communism propaganda. Some of that propaganda probably worked on them and consequently they are propagandised individuals. But I doubt you would call them capitalist and enemy. Ofc, you wouldn’t as you would special plead for them, while happily supporting conflating propagandised individuals with capitalists and the enemy.
You’re entirely confused. I live in the US Empire, of course I know people raised in capitalism. I’m not calling the working class my enemy, I’m calling for the working class to directly combat the DNC, GOP, and the entire capitalist class. I’m not conflating those who side with the capitalists despite being working class with the capitalist class, but recognizing that we need to do our best to show them who their actual enemies are and organize them.
Because you know the actual enemy, you defend a meme that demonises “propagandised individuals” instead of the enemy. Interesting choice.
It isn’t demonizing them, but explaining that communists are hated just for wanting a better world, which is true.
I think you misunderstood what they meant, when they said “capitalists” they meant those who own the capital and such, not people who believe capitalism works and socialism doesn’t. Propagandized individuals are only capitalists if they own capital.
No i didn’t.
I understand what capitalists are and he does too. We agree with the definition.
He just feels forced to conflate both to justify a toxic meme.
I agree with you, but also the communist bad vs capitalist bad meme war and the corresponding comments are the only reason I’m still on the fediverse.
With no conservative presence to speak of, you get to see why no unity is possible between groups of any significant size. Leftists will continue to shatter into smaller groups and those groups will vie for dominance inside of the movement. Each group will develop purity tests to identify members.
Even amongst groups of capitalists, even amongst groups of communists, even amongst groups of lgbtq+ people and the sub groups to which they apply. Especially when those groups interact.
The human animal is amazing! The only thing most people agree on is violence is required to move society in any significant direction. That tells you everything you need to know about humans.
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the social Democrats enabled fascism the whole way; they literally had right wing paramilitaries kill their left wing opposition.
you clearly would rather be goose stepping
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“literally” lmao - spoiler they didn’t
The SPD endorsed the ‘lesser evil’ conservative candidate who went on to hand over power to Hitler.
They also killed a ton of communists, all of the above is probably why you have a soft spot for them
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Look up some Ernst Thalmann quotes.
feel free to provide them.
I don’t mind communists, just tankies.
Well I don’t like social democrats at all because they’re always contriving new lies and smears to divert attention from their awful pro-capitalist politics.
The social democrats were murdering the communists, while the KPD stood firmly against Hitler and the Nazis. The SPD endorsed Hindenburg, who won, and subsequently gave power to Hitler.
