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I think non-Germans can’t understand the deep social guilt that’s been drilled into them since WWII. Since childhood they’re told how horrible they were to the Jews, what atrocities they committed; they’re taken on field trips to concentration camps where it’s explained in graphic detail what their grandparents did to the Jews; there is a deep cultural guilt around the Holocaust, and although many different people suffered, it’s specifically focused on Jews. Even I don’t understand it; when I was living there I asked some question I don’t even remember about the Holocaust of one of my German friends, and he quite politely told me “we don’t talk about that.” It’s a subject of guilt and embarrassment.
It’s easy to criticize the West for not taking a stand against the genocide in Palestine that Israel is perpetrating; we do not, and can not, understand what Germans (in general, there always exists some racist fascists in every country) have to overcome to take such a stand. You might think they’d be champions against genocide, but what it ended up being was cultural guilt about murdering Jews.
All those Germans in power now were the children of a generation who survived the war as children, and who all had it beaten into them how horrible a people they were and how terrible the atrocity against the Jews they executed. If any country is going to struggle with condemning Israel, it’s going to be Germany, and the people who the rest of the world has been using as the villain in TV and movies for 80 years; who’ve been beaten on the head about the Holocaust since childhood.
I think non-Germans can’t understand the deep social guilt that’s been drilled into them since WWII
Except they only defend Israel…
LGBT was a target too, is Germany standing up for LGBT?
What about the Romani?
What about communists?
What about people who spoke out against genocide?
The Jewish victims of the Holocaust made up about 50% of it’s victims. Why unquestionable support for them, but not for other groups?
It’s great Germany’s seeing the light now, but don’t act like they had a rational excuse for blindly supporting a genocide of a different group.
That’s exactly the point op is making.
All those Germans in power now were the children of a generation who survived the war as children, and who all had it beaten into them how horrible a people they were and how terrible the atrocity against the Jews they executed.
They’re ignoring 50% of the people their parent’s generation killed, and excusing the other 50%'s children committing their own genocide against a different group…
They’re explicitly not making the same point as me…
there is a deep cultural guilt around the Holocaust, and although many different people suffered, it’s specifically focused on Jews. Even I don’t understand it;
OP isn’t ignoring it, the culture is.
Is it an excuse, or an explanation?
You didn’t read what I wrote; I’ll assume because it was too verbose for you.
I said
although many different people suffered, it’s specifically focused on Jews.
and
You might think they’d be champions against genocide, but what it ended up being was cultural guilt about murdering Jews.
In the West we ignore the communist victims because we were in a cold war with the Communists. We ignore the LGBTQ because we also oppressed the LBGTQ communities. We didn’t carve a new country out of other country’s land for anyone except Jews. And the West was a, if not the, major force directing the reeducation of the German populous after WWII.
I find this “You can’t blame Germany for supporting genocide, because they’re guilty about the Holocaust!” defense kind of hard to believe. After all, Germany also committed genocide against the USSR, and yet “Russia delenda est” seems to be an extremely mainstream position among Germans currently.
It’s easy to criticize the West for not taking a stand against the genocide in Palestine
Actually we’re criticizing them for actively supporting the genocide.
we do not, and can not, understand what Germans (in general, there always exists some racist fascists in every country) have to overcome to take such a stand.
This is incredibly tone-deaf, given what people in Gaza are actually having to overcome.
I think non-Germans can’t understand the deep social guilt that’s been drilled into them since WWII.
Then why are you speculating about it.
when I was living there I asked some question I don’t even remember about the Holocaust of one of my German friends, and he quite politely told me “we don’t talk about that.” It’s a subject of guilt and embarrassment.
Yeah that’s surely the only possible interpretation.
Truth be told: Just by using the term “guilt” you’re parroting Nazi talking points. It’s the precise type of rhetoric they’re driving, and you’re a dogwhistle’s understanding away from “The Jews invented the Holocaust to shame Germany to keep it from being strong”.
Maybe that’s why people didn’t want to talk to you about it.
For people actually interested in understanding it, instead of merely having an opinion: Start by distinguishing between “guilt” and “responsibility”, the latter not in the sense of culpability, but… OSHA.
The whole Israel thing is actually distinct from that. If, tomorrow, Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir etc were to keel over and we’d have the second coming of Rabin, the collective sigh of relief in Germany would knock the earth off axis. The trouble is supporting, at the same time a) Israel to exist within its internationally recognised borders and b) supporting the same thing for Palestine allthewhile c) fascists on both sides making shit impossible.
There’s been plenty of criticism within Germany towards the hesitant stance of the government. On the flipside, what you also don’t see is German media – also public, also state media (DW) sugar-coating what’s happening in Gaza.
For the longest time the government kept to its age-old approach of working the Israelis quietly, in the background. Stuff that, on occasion, led them to relent on settlement projects etc. Germany did it that way because it was a way to influence things while keeping an in. That seems to be over because there’s no “in” with Israel any more, they’re simply not listening to things they don’t want to hear.
Thank you.
I don’t think Germans visiting those concentration camps paid any attention and I don’t think they have any guilt towards the Holocaust whatsoever.
If they did Germans would be absolutely disgusted with a new genocide happening with German support. Hell the AfD neo-Nazis are the most popular party in Germany these days.
Germany similar to the USA has a very strong Zionist lobby and that’s it. They do not care about the Holocaust.
The Holocaust once came up in conversation with a German and he was moved to tears. He was an older generation though, somewhat less removed from the reality.
Ask that same older generation about the genocide in Gaza. See what they say.
My parents were born late in the 1940s.
Both are disgusted by the actions of Israel as well as Hamas.
What’s your point?
So your parents would have been disgusted by both the actions of the Nazis and the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. Sounds like they were ‘good Germans’
- Warsaw ghetto was closed in 1943. The war was over in 1945. As I said, they were born in the late 40s.
- They also know how to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians.
- You are implying that Palestinians and Hamas are one and the same. Which they are not.
- You are also equating Hamas and the Jews massacred in the Warsaw ghetto.
- Hamas are terrorists. The Jews were not.
- Hamas did deserve a forceful reaction. The Palestinians did not.
Warsaw ghetto was closed in 1943. The war was over in 1945. As I said, they were born in the late 40s.
Hence why I said “would have”.
They also know how to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians.
Clearly not, given that Hamas aren’t a different species or people. Hamas is literally the government of Gaza, it is made up of Palestinians.
You are implying that Palestinians and Hamas are one and the same. Which they are not.
This is always just a lazy excuse to keep massacring Palestinians.
Hamas are terrorists. The Jews were not.
“They weren’t terrorists, they were freedoms fighters!”
You would have called the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto uprising terrorists.
Hamas did deserve a forceful reaction
You would have justified the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto in the same way.
Turns out, any time someone says they disagree with “both a sides” of a genocide, you don’t have to dig far to discover that they support the genocide
“Both are disgusted by the actions of the Nazis as well as the Jews.”
That’s your parents
Nicht alles was hinkt ist ein Vergleich.
Wir haben er nicht gewusst.
Wow. Some preconceptions you have there.
I have some preconceptions about the Nazis too.
My perception of Germans would greatly improve if they did not come running to defend their government’s complicity in genocide all the time.
I don’t think bashing you is helpful, that’s why I kept it short. The other comment here made some excellent points.
The main gist being we’re not allowed to say anything about this. We’re really not.
So this very and too late message is impressive, for our circumstances.
Don’t mix what we’re allowed to say with the public opinion.
Honestly i am surprised. I expected Merz to become the EUs last man standing on the Israeli side.
He is. Remember that they are not stopping the sales of arms to Israel. These are only “strong words” to appear a little less nazis.
He’s doing the Democrat thing now where he is “working tirelessly towards a ceasefire”.
The last men standing were always going to be the extreme-right thugs that have been meeting with the Israeli diplomats Netanyahu has been using as his personal money couriers.
Yeah true, i had active political leaders in mind, but there is an increasing overlap between those and the thugs you described.
