- cross-posted to:
- fuckcars@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- fuckcars@lemmy.world
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I guess it’s easier to undertake a massive infrastructure project if you can just tell residents to move it or else…
Careful, you might get a ban from .ml for saying that
Fuck ml. I am willing to bet the Chengdu one won’t survive the next 14 years. Or 5. But I am willing to give an half honest thumbs up to the tankies if it still stands in 2026.
Also easier when you don’t need to worry you’ll be voted out for spending tax money on a massive infrastructure project.
No, they do, the big difference is that they’ll be voted out and replaced by someone else from the same party.
Because there’s only one party.
Except China respects user rights to an insane degree and there’s many images of giant infra projects going around one tiny homestead and whatnot. My guess is also Chinese typically are less game to make a big deal about new transit compared to the home owners of Canada. Where’s the Toronto excuse now?
Chengdu is the capital city of the Chinese province of Sichuan. With a population of 20,937,757 at the 2020 census.
Toronto is the most populous city in Canada and the capital city of the Canadian province of Ontario. With a population of 2,794,356 in 2021
Meanwhile Hamburg, Germany with only 1.8 Million:
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Kind of misleading. That’s metro+light rail. Above ground light rail is massively cheaper to build than subways.
How is it misleading? The post says ‘public transit’ and both are.
You mean that that is all the public transport in Toronto, combined?!
No idea, never been to Toronto. I assumed it was railed transit, busses are usually not shown on the same maps. But if theres more, then the post is misleading, not the comment.
Still gets you places almost the same. Just have to have the foresight to leave space for it above ground.
Sure. I simply point out that developing above ground rails much cheaper. I’m not criticizing. I’m all for nay kind of public transport, and electric car and moto sharing.
Someone should let the leadership of Toronto know, they keep increasing costs with having it go underground
We have two LRT lines opening in short order. Both the eglinton crosstown and finch west. They’re also actively working to make all the Line 2 stations accessible by way of adding elevators where the designers in the 1960s saw no need for them. Believe it or not, they’re aware, but the TTC fights more than just a budget when trying to implement these things.
Besides NIMBYs, there’s the rapid expansion of the GTA to consider, which has led to either a redevelopment of land or a requirement for mass transit in places that were developed 20 years ago without consideration for it. As densification occurs, it is both more required, but more logistically complicated. The current municipal gov does genuinely seem interested in fixing this, but doing so is kind of a nightmare without the funding to buy property and redevelop entire civic centers. Add to the fact that the provincial government seems to wage its own war against changes to anything that would affect a car’s right of way and the downtown suddenly becomes this unchangeable monolith.
Then there’s the bonus factors of Bombardier, the supplier of basically every train for every LRT or Subway line in Canada, the fact that Toronto is actually a collection of smaller municipal regions with their own concerns and challenges, and that they’re also still trying to add ATC to all of Line 2 in order to replace the aging trains there. It becomes pretty clear that building out an entirely new transit system under the directive of your federal government with next to unlimited funding is probably a lot easier than reworking a 60 year old subway network that had vastly different aspirations than now.
China runs the benefit of uniform prioritization of these networks, in places that had no previous infrastructure to contend with. They aren’t currently splitting a budget between maintaining/retrofitting 60 year old subway lines, stations and cars. I’d be more interested in see if they were able to continue this kind of buildout in 30 years, or if they end up facing a lot of the same logistical challenges.
I’d be more interested in see if they were able to continue this kind of buildout in 30 years
The Beijing subway opened in 1971, when they had less than half the current population. All I can say is that it felt slow, like 2 hours to get what looked like 3-4 blocks on a map
I think I’d almost consider it the same as starting with nothing when they began the next phase of construction in 2002. The map then vs now demonstrates that, and mostly follows China’s industrial/modern expansion in urban environments in recent memory. I think it’s still difficult to comprehend what a massive shift they’ve had in urban construction since the mid-90s as they’ve become the economic center for trade and manifacturing in the last couple decades. The transit still can’t keep up with demand, even with a subway system so extensive. It’s also still a very car-centric urban environment and I imagine now faces many similar civil construction challenges as in North America. It’s a good part of why I’m curious to see how things shape up in the coming decades for them and how they overcome those challenges at a scale Canada hopefully never needs to contend with.
NYC with almost half of the population of Chengdu.
What is the required population threshold for investing into public transit? Above 3 million and below 20 million, it seems, but can you be more specific?
Other comments have pointed out that Toronto also has a light rail system and other solutions. This post shows just the metro systems of both cities. Maybe when there’s an order of magnitude difference in population, the exact transit solutions needed differ?
Why is it my job to provide policy? Can you be more specific?
I don’t care about the post itself, but OP, in the last 24 hours you’ve made something like 80 posts. What the fuck?
I’m posting an absolute shit ton of content to support Lemmy.
You aren’t the first one to notice :)
o7
o7
So, first of all: o7, thank you for your service. Second, where the heck do you find the time?
Post while pretending to work and you’ll never work a day in your life.
- Sun Tzu
o7
Bot, perhaps?
Nope. I’m definitely not a bot.
I regularly post a lot of articles from some websites, but you will notice my patterns can be extremely irregular. There are some articles that I don’t find interesting/attractive, so I just don’t share them.
However, I do find the rise of sophisticated bots worrying.
Sounds like something that a real person would never do.
Obligatory that’s exactly what a bot would say comment
How many of those are pandering to China? You left a lot of context off the post, like the population numbers And the fact that China uses slave labor
I wonder how many accounts on Lemmy.world are cia-bots that keep repeating the `China uses slave labour" mantra
Lemmy.ml account, never heard of Uyghurs huh? Or the Tiananmen Square Massacre 1989…
it’s not so much CIA posts, it’s more people brainwashed by the CIA that post this
also, my opinion on this, it’s not so much the CIA that is doing this but neoliberal organizations.
if china’s political system prevails, that would mean an end to a lot of exploitative strategies that are employed within the US today, such as companies working for the private pockets of the rich instead of for the public good
china’s obviously doing a lot right, including these jobs programs that build infrastructure. they’re a win-win for the people (wages + housing/transport), yet the only one who could possibly lose out because of it is private landlords and private transport providers (including the car makers)
You’re right! Why stop at putting suicide nets at foxcon! We could make that global!
Listen: I hate liberal capitalism as much as the next lemmy user, but lets not pretend China is some paradise of labor rights
Maybe they’re not just mildly infuriated.
as someone who lives in Toronto I mean…you really don’t need an extensive subway network here. We have a lot of buses and several lines of street cars (trollys, trains on the road, whatever you call them where you live).
So what’s being shown here is ONLY the subway network. it doesn’t show the vast street car lines would would make it look A LOT like the China photo.
mean…you really don’t need an extensive subway network here
Found the 905’er
The streetcar network is a complete shitshow. Multiple streetcars bunched up, with hundreds of people inside, being blocked by a few SUV drivers and parked cars on the side of the street.
Its faster to bike or walk in most cases.
Same for the buses. There’s a reason the bus lines here have nicknames like “the sufferin’ dufferin”
with hundreds of people inside
Wow. It sounds very utilized. That awesome.
Utilisation is good, but overcrowding illustrates the point of this meme, which is that the public transit system is being neglected and hasn’t kept pace with demand.
sorry bud, I live in Beaconsfild village. I ride the vomit commit almost daily. We don’t need an extensive subway network.
At grade == weak
Toronto isn’t filled with great alternate modes of mass transit so much as it’s filled with excuses not to build mass transit.
Let me weep in “Ontario line”.
is this why there is no traffic problems in Toronto and commute is not a suicide inducing nightmare?
The last video of Not Just Bikes is specifically about Toronto’s streetcar.
street cars
Is at least one of them called Desire?
What’s up with all the China hype on Lemmy? These projects are impressive, no doubt, but their cost in terms of human rights violations are pretty high. I’m speaking generally, I don’t have the specifics with regards to this subway system. Either way it’s not really comparable to a project like this in a country like Canada imo.
Some countries want to sell the image of “China is the absolute evil”, thus from this logic everything “good” must equal something very evil.
Some of those are valid, some are stupid as hell.
For the covid ones - the cost was complete lockdown, with some people’s doors being welded shut (not official government policy, but common enough to make news, as lower level authorities get some decision making power in these cases). Imagine having an emergency and your door being welded shut. And of course we later found out that even multi-dose vaccines don’t stop covid 100%, so instead of stopping the pandemic forever, nothing of value was actually achieved. Covid is the new seasonal flu. For a while we didn’t even get vaccines for Covid here in Estonia anymore, though now they’re back on the table, free if you’re in a high risk group.
Electric cars - the cost is mass government subsidies for BYD and a couple of others. BYD doesn’t make money if they sell you a car I believe, they make money from the Chinese government if they sell you a car. Even if you’re in another country. China wants their EVs to dominate the market and that’s a strategy. This is why the EU had to raise tariffs on Chinese cars. Otherwise the European auto industry would simply die.
Electric cars - the cost is mass government subsidies for BYD and a couple of others. BYD doesn’t make money if they sell you a car I believe, they make money from the Chinese government if they sell you a car. Even if you’re in another country. China wants their EVs to dominate the market and that’s a strategy. This is why the EU had to raise tariffs on Chinese cars. Otherwise the European auto industry would simply die.
Why doesn’t the EU simply also subsidize their EVs?
They’re for-profit companies and so far pretty successful without direct subsidies. EU countries usually have subsidies for purchasing EVs (regardless of manufacturer) rather than subsidizing the manufacturers directly - this leaves the consumers more choice and has a similar or maybe even better effect on EV adoption. On the climate side of things as well as public health and equal opportunities for people, transit investments would be better than outright paying BMW and Mercedes to make their EVs cheaper. China, however, doesn’t just want EV adoption on their own roads, China wants THEIR EVs specifically to dominate the world. Usually this is seen as unfair, regardless of industry, and is one of the few valid reasons for tariffs in an otherwise free global market.
The funny thing is, if the Chinese subsidize their EVs and the EU tariffs them, the tariff money could then be spent on EV subsidies - bringing all the different manufacturers to equal ground again.
yeah this makes sense to me
i guess there is a lot of ways to subsidize something. for example, if you want your local EV company to produce cheaper EVs, you could also subsidize public housing sothat rent is cheaper, sothat workers have cheaper rent and don’t need to ask for such high wages to cover the cost of living.
Lots of things, yeah. Many countries have set up energy efficiency loans too - for home renovations, or for business purposes. The idea is that you give out low interest loans so people (or companies) can achieve what they need earlier. I don’t know if anything like that is in place in Germany, France or Sweden (or Italy, I suppose they still have a bit of their car industry left), but if I was in a relevant position in one of those companies and there was a need to, say, build a battery manufacturing plant locally so that EVs could be built for cheaper and less dependence on existing battery manufacturers, I’d definitely go ask the relevant nation’s government, parliament and/or business development department, for a loan, tax break, or subsidies. Worst that could happen is they say no.
But yeah, an already successful car manufacturer getting straight on subsidies for selling cars they’re already making and selling anyway - extremely unlikely in most countries I’d think. Now if one or two of the German big 3 were on the verge of bankruptcy because of Chinese competition, that might change. Still sounds unlikely though. China’s GDP is 4x that of Germany’s, they can afford to keep subsidizing their shit for longer.
!meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
Lemmy has tankie problem.
you are the problem
We don’t have to agree with China’s politics to appreciate that they did a positive thing. And we shouldn’t have to emulate their politics to get a thing done. We should be able to do it
Something about a street being made that leads into hades.
What helps is that the aumomotive/gas industry lobby there isnt so effective.
Lemmy is more international than Reddit, so you’ll see more diverse perspectives
The speed and size is impressive, yes.
But I doubt the quality.
“Tofu-dreg project” (Chinese: 豆腐渣工程) is a phrase used in the Chinese-speaking world to describe a very poorly constructed building, sometimes called just “Tofu buildings”. The phrase is notably used referring to buildings that collapsed in the 2008 Sichuan earthquake disaster,[1][2][3][4][5][6] and the Bangkok Audit Office skyscraper collapse initiated by aftershocks from the March 2025 Myanmar earthquake over 1000km away, which was constructed with poor construction techniques and materials
Pentagon wasted tax money on facebook bots to convince people in East Asia that the chinese covid vaccine was poison, so no one is really buying the “China human rights abuses are what allow China to succeed” idea anymore.
Especially since you can just as easily point to Japan’s infrastructure projects which achieved the same thing under US supervision post WWII, meaning said human rights violations aren’t even a supposed cost if there’s less evidence of it that of UAE literally pirating in immigrants to build their lavish towers and stadiums.
Of which the US fully supports, so this just goes back to the blame game of who is worse.
Yes, China has some shady ideas of what is considered acceptable behavior and work output from citizens, but the point is that they are using it to rapidly grow their infrastructure, unlike NA which take a decade for a single transit system to get approved all while car OEMs are pumping out dumpsterfire vehicles of whose parts are overwhelmingly made in China.
Public transport policy in Toronto is a disaster. It is a complete disappointment of a city and an ugly blight on the landscape that serves only captialism and vapid mediocrity
its sad im over here in Dallas and im envious of Toronto.
Here in San Antonio we have zero rail so…
It’s a disaster until you compare it to most other North American cities. Like what is better? NYC and Montreal? I’m sure there are a few other cities that I can’t think of.
But its true that it has been neglected for decades. Thankfully that has changed a bit recently with 2 new lines being in construction. However the maintenance budget is continually insufficient to keep everything in good repair. Only new projects make your government look good I guess. (But we need both new projects and maintenance)
I agree that North America is appalling. I grew up in Europe, so that is my main comparison.
The two new lines would be helpful, but as someone that lived in Toronto for 15 years until very recently, I believe they were horribly mismanaged. Like most of the city is…
And still WAY ahead of a ton of similarly sized cities on the continent
Talking about China’s human rights issues right away is very strange. Nobody does this if someone mentions a US project.
I wonder why
Because the US has no human rights violations?
/s
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While your comment is very amusing, accessibility and congestion are pretty high up on the list of things that make a place “nice.” A deep Investment into public transit is very likely to have a positive impact on an inhabitant’s happiness.
(Incidentally, it’s ironic that you have leapt to the conclusion that one of these cities is “winning” while nothing of the sort is stated in the post, only then to take objection to people drawing such conclusions.)
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Yep, developing country is developing? Holy crap, imagine that!
Add to that, Toronto’s transit system includes light rail that pulls together a much wider geographical area, outside its subway system. It’s a pretty good system, actually
Orange vs Apple! Who will win!
That being said I do wish every country would have a better public infrastructure.
Just out of curiosity if you do have recent research in economy on the impact of subway, tram, bus, bike lanes, etc on both productivity AND happiness, please do share. I’m already convinced but I’d love to learn more on how and why.
Very recent, non-peer reviewed research, n=1. It makes me very happy to be able to nap on a subway/night bus or safely ride a bicycle or somewhat less safely ride a motorbike. My productivity is the same because I work remotely.
I do think there needs to be a shift in how the government invests in this country, but the answer isn’t “let’s go authoritarian”. Governments need to stop looking for big, complicated answers though and realize that production and growth comes from within, and improving mobility increases production, simple as that. You can invest in industries till the cows come home, but the optics of giving tax breaks and incentives to companies when it takes John 2 hours to drive to work is never going to be good.
Bet money America’s interstate highway system would not pass today’s Congress. And can you imagine conservatives bitching about the spend?!
For non-Americans, our interstate highways are federally funded, safe, consistently engineered and tie the country together. If interstates magically disappeared, our economy would collapse within a month.
can you imagine conservatives bitching about the spend?!
Nonsense. They wouldn’t even know that ‘spend’ isn’t a noun when you’re not on the car lot. #soFetch
Interstate highway is oil. Interstate highway is love.
improving mobility increases production
Can you restate that in a way that makes it clear that the billionaire class will be able to utilize the project to rape and pillage society and increase income inequity? Otherwise, I don’t see how anyone can support it.
I do think there needs to be a shift in how the government invests in this country, but the answer isn’t “let’s go authoritarian”.
In the end, its more about getting things done, and investing in society, rather than how strongly you can shout your opinion about transgender folk. A government that invests in society is one not focused on either enriching itself, or cutting all social spending to fund tax cuts for oligarchs. When the only acts we/society/rulers ever implement is giveaways to their sponsors, you could think about your programming that tells you your rulership is the best system of all.
That’s what federal directive and funding will do.
Maybe a car tunnel and more lanes, ready in 15-30 years, will solve the congestion!
Brilliant! Let’s also plan on self driving cars to increase total throughput and completely block out pedestrians on the street so the cars can go zoom zoom… Until induced demand locks it all up again.
There’s loads of countries and cities around the world with better public transit than Toronto.
Plenty with democratic elections and freedom of expression too.
Only one reason someone would pick China over anywhere else.
I might be wrong but a lot of it’s wikipedia page looks like this city was completely reconstructed from the ground up in said period of time that makes it too exceptional for this comparison and not a usual occurence even in China. It became a major hub of China-EU trade upping it’s importance and neccesitating a boost in infrastructural efficiency while it’s population effectively doubled. A great move all around tho.
Toronto is more bound to US economics than Chinese economics. You could make the same map for every major city and probably tell which they were more influenced by.
