- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.ml
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The last panel applies to every other social media, just replace the spying country.
That last part is becoming less and less relevant … someone is spying but it isn’t for the benefit or under the control of a country. More and more, the spying is meant more for the purposes of commerce and finance, for money and control. For business interests which is what major governments mainly represent.
And as soon as the government wants it, most companies hand it right over.
At this point, the line between business and government in the US is almost non-existent, so definitely still a government using your data for the propaganda machine.
Reminds of my favourite description of the US …
“The US isn’t a country, it’s a corporation with a military”
And it doesn’t matter who or why, either - as soon as someone hoards other people’s data, someone else will try to steal it.
Right? Now do Facebook.
Yes, and that’s why US companies aren’t banned by the US. The foreign power having so much propaganda power was the danger.
So if an American company collects user data and sells it on the open market to a hostile foreign nation, and accepts money to run propaganda, that’s A-OK?
That capitalism baby! I suppose Congress can at least control who Facebook et al. are selling to through sanctions and such.
They could but they haven’t, so this ban is just racist economic protectionism.
I’m not sure what race has to do with economic protectionism, but it’s really a combination of all of the above.
Same reason why China bans a shitload of sites. It’s fine when you do it to your own citizens
Lemmy begs to differ
There are multiple instances pushing propaganda and most data can just be scraped by bots. It may be harder, but capitalism finds a way.
The multiple instances:
Jokes on you, I use lemmy
On Arch tho?
Jokes on you, I use lemmy
Literally made by communists
Jokes on you, you use it too
I’m impervious to communism, comrade.
edit fuck!
They out here. Both of them. This post smells just like one tbh.
? Who’s out here?
The people that countries pay to pretend to be normal everyday users in order to spread state propaganda?
Edit: in this case ‘both’ refers to the image particularly portraying two countries
That’s not what the meme is about. It’s about the company collecting data and giving it to their government
Edit: and adjusting the algorithm to their favor
And the very next day:
We were trailblazers for a time. Other than that, we were always kind of fucked as a democratic system.
What time was that? (genuinely curious)
Late 18th century. The chaos of the French Revolution arguably diluted its viability as an example to other countries, despite the structure of democratic government being objectively better, so you can argue that we were still on the cutting-edge through the 19th century, even, when most countries were still autocracies or constitutional monarchies with extremely questionable de jure voting systems.
I would argue as late as the 1950s, our democratic structure was closer to average than below-average, but by the 1970s, what gave the US more in-common with other developed democracies was that we had extensive practice with our democratic system; by then our structure was not just hopelessly outdated, but a structure that no one in their right mind would take seriously as a foundation for a new government. Come the fall of most of the single-party Soviet-backed regimes of the 1990s, and the only countries we actually beat out for being a ‘good democracy’ are ones that… well, are only questionably democracies to begin with. And even then, most of them have structures that are superior to our’s; only a tradition of civic participation has led us to hobble on as long as we have without becoming an outright authoritarian state.
Though this might be the last month I can say that, which says a lot about the failures of our shitshow of an attempt at implementing democracy.
Late 18th century
The majority of the population could not vote, either due to their skin color, sex, or degree of property ownership (colony by colony/state by state as I recall).
The majority of the population could not vote, either due to their skin color, sex, or degree of property ownership (colony by colony/state by state as I recall).
Yeah, you should look into other governments of the period.
Just to be specific, your argument is that the United States of the late 18th century can be considered a “trail blazer” in terms of democratic achievement. You are agreeing to my assertion that the franchise can be used as a measure of democracy, and you are asserting that the United States was uniquely forward in this area. This follow up statement is limiting this to a comparison of similar governments of the 18th century?
Late 18th century, yes. And if I hear pop history myths about the Iroquois, I will be irritated.
Which is a comparison that makes complete sense. When you say that someone is leading the way, you are clearly referring to them being at the forefront at the time when they were leading the way. Any system that was a trail blazer 100+ years ago should be outdated by now, unless progress stopped or went backwards in the meantime.
And how was the situation in the rest of the world?
Before any of us were alive. Some would say before centralized banking in the early 20th
Probably no nation ever should last for more than 100 years. That seems to be about the time it takes for things to go bad, even if they were good to start with.
And of course there are countries like modern Russia that should have lasted for about 5 years.
Democracy is the worst form of government…
Except for all other forms.
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I think “For a minute or two” is a more apt answer.
And one naturally says the reason why we are in such a mess is not simply that we have wrong systems for doing things—whether they be technological, political, or religious—but we have the wrong people. The systems may be alright, but they are in the wrong hands, because we are all in various ways self-seeking, lacking in wisdom, lacking in courage, afraid of death, afraid of pain, unwilling really to cooperate with others, unwilling to be open to others.
—Alan Watts, Mind Over Mind
Now do one with Xinnie the Pooh
Neither he nor his country seem to be on their way out currently. Same old authoritarianism as usual.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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A republic is a kind of democracy.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Because democracy is an abstract name for a system and republic is the more concrete result of that system
In other words, a republic is a kind of democracy.
Oh my god, can you people shut up with this already.
But I like fish.
He wrote “it’s not a democracy, it’s a republic” originally.
No I didn’t.
I was explaining my fish preferences.
I tried to hold on to the red snapper but I took what was in the box.
No need to keep commenting
Do you not love fish?
Why not? It’s fun. Plus I hate it when the herring bones get stuck in my teeth.
There is sooooo much weird conspiracy shit in these comments. The government is banning TikTok becuase they collect too much data and the Chinese government could eaisly get access to all of it. The correct thing to do would be to regulate data collection but that would be problematic for Google, Meta, Microsoft, Apple…etc etc… so instead they just ban TikTok. All this TikTok refusing to spread deep state US govt propaganda horse shit is a bit past nuts.
They’re not hiding it. It’s not a “conspiracy” when it’s out the in the open.
I mean occams razor is the best way to feel sane in the disinformation age so im with you. But i think its more accruate to do our best understand what is possible and suspend holding a specific belief like that because it doesnt matter if you are right or wrong. Many things could be true at the same time, especially with who you ask.
Kind of makes our conversations worthless, which i think is the strategy of disinformation. We cant know, so should we really be claiming whats true or not? Seems like we should just offer what seems most likely rather than tell everyone they are wrong unless you have information sources to help them understand why they are likely wrong.
The correct thing to do would be to
Yes the banning of TikTok is absolutely the wrong thing.
You make a good point and then draw the wrong conclusion.
You hit the nail on the head with what they should be doing (broad industry regulations), but then you COMPLETELY missed the point you made. Congress is NOT banning TikTok because they collect too much data, they’re banning it because it’s TikTok and the “data” is just an excuse…otherwise they’d pass real data privacy laws.
Another platform will pop up over the next week if TikTok is banned. What they want is to sell TikTok to someone that will change the platform because it’s too powerful. This isn’t to push “government propaganda”, but simply to change the algorithm to not be so good. They don’t want you to gain class consciousness or have political discourse, they want you to be distracted with silly cat videos and memes…and maybe a side of culture war, but nothing else.
Both are bad, one is worse.
I hope you mean Google, they track you all over the web whether you want to be tracked or not just because lazy web developers can’t be bothered to host their own fonts (and other ways but that’s just one example). You have to deliberately download or use TikTok for them to get your data.
Not to mention meta. They’ll do all of the above and when they’re done sell the data to the highest bidder.
You’re right, Google controls what I see and pushes right wing propaganda to my phone. TikTok’s algorithm actually works to serve me content based on my interests, and I have true political discussion and discourse there.
Google doesn’t push right wing propaganda to my phone. Do they only do that to US citizens?
I’m Canadian - 2 weeks before the election I started getting about an article per day pushed to my Android phone, for a few days.
Now when you say “pushed to”, where and how did that actually manifest “on” your phone.
Android will push notifications for news articles that you may be “interested” in. I think it used to be called Google Now.
Congress is concerned about theoretical propaganda, but it’s a reality in nearly every major news outlet and tech companies, but zero concern when it fits a certain narrative.
Huh. Curious. I’ve been using Google Now, and after that, its successor, for a long time. Rarely do I see any political propaganda. Just sane reporting. I’m based on Northern Europe though.
You’re right, Google’s tracking is way more pervasive and far less optional.
Polly wants a cracker
Oh yeah, I forgot the other social media apps don’t collect data and spew propaganda. Oh wait… They do.
Imagine cheering that your government decided witch social media are you allowed to use.
Well yeah, but it’s the US government which hasn’t ever done anything problematic before. I’m sure it’s for everyone’s best interest. /S
Which if that were true, still wouldn’t matter.
This meme brought to you by some poor CIA agent
Imagine
usingbeing unfathomably addicted totrusting an app parented and developed in a country where you can’t criticize your leaders.Imagine trusting an app owned by billionaires that just paid off the government to remove their competition.
You’re an idiot if you trust any social media platform at this point.
Yeah. American apps are trash like that
So are the xinny apps
Two things can be bad at once you dipshit 😘
Touch a nerve did I?
You do know that it’s illegal to be a socialist and hold any kind of government job in the United States? Brother we are in that country right now. But let’s keep hearing you bitch about China.
Haters will say it’s fake: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954
we are in that country right now
Links wiki article to anti-communist measures taken in 1954
Brother, that is still the laws on the books. Age does not matter. Do you really not understand that? Do you think laws expire? Did you choose to not understand? What’s your deal? You live inside your own nightmare.
Got no more retort? Did you change your mind or just decide to stop thinking about it to save your precious idea of your country.
Still responding 3 days later, my comments must have cut deep lol. I replied to PyroNeurosis cause I actually cared for their reply, and then moved on to other discussions on this platform more meaningful than your retorts.
People do sure like to avoid information that proves them wrong. I like making sure that they don’t forget.
Thankfully, that doesn’t apply to us using the app because the Chinese government doesn’t govern us.
Meanwhile, the US government absolutely influences the flow of information on US hosted social media sites, so uh, let’s be upset at all of them regardless of location!
As an adult, that’s my choice to make, not the government.
so use a VPN?
Technical possibilities to circumvent a law are not part of my argument here.
TikTok will not be banned. People are delusional.
Tiktok got banned not for peddling “chinese propaganda” but instead not peddling the US one.
All the major tech companies in the US take measures to ensure content deemed unworthy by the government never become mainstream or viral.
This is done under the pretense of stopping “hate speech” or “terroristic propaganda” but often include things like pro-palestinian content or class struggle content (like luigi mangione stuff).
Tiktok was bold enough to not do that by default, cuz they wanted someone to ask them to do this and then it would become a huge scandal about how the US suppresses free speech. And US gov don’t want to do that for this exact reason as well. So they decided to ban it.
Remember talks for this “law” were initiated when all of a sudden tiktok became a host for pro-palestinian voices. We should ask ourselves, how is it that 60% of americans want the government to stop arms sales to israel but this 60% never shows up on the big social media platforms. But on other platforms like here in lemmy and tiktok, pro-palestinians is the majority.
For further reading, listen to employees fired from big US tech companies for voicing their concerns over the palestine issue, or read Meta’s new terms and conditions specially the section on “dangerous organizations and individuals”.
Ah yes, TikTok, the land free of censorship. Where you can’t say “gay” and must insert a stupid little asterisk.
I didn’t say tiktok is the bastion of free speech. They only do this in the Palestinian case because it does not serve them anything to be against palestine. We can criticise one party without making the other one some kind of “moral hero” of a story.
It’s outright shadowbanned at best and straight up banned at the isp level at worst.
That’s why tik tok is getting banned, because US spooks can’t control it.
They track the location of people in the US and gather large amounts of data. They didn’t get banned for refusing to spread US propaganda.
Not to defend tiktok (to this day I have not ever used it), but if the issue is the tracking and data collection, you could ban/regulate that specifically instead of singling out the app.
Ding ding ding
False dichotomy. They could’ve been banned on legitimate pretenses AND other reasons threatening power.
If they were legitimately only banned for “tracking the location in the US and gathering large amounts of data”, then just about every single social media service would be under investigation for the same reason. But do we currently see that happening?
They’re owned by a Chinese company so the Chinese govt has this information. I’m not saying it’s a good reason to ban it, or that there isn’t another secret reason, or that American companies don’t gather the same information. This was the problem all along - China receiving vast amounts of information about Americans. Actually the US was probably worried about China spreading their viewpoints, now that I think more about it. IDK
These are very loose terms. Pretty much every major website saves IP addresses when you create an account (to prevent abuse/spam detection). And you can get location info from the IP address. Hence the first condition would be true for all of those websites.
Next, any website/app that builds a recommendation system will save user interactions to build the “algorithm”. So every social media with an algorithm will fall into this category.
With enough bending of terminology, we might be able to prove that the lemmy also collects user data (although it will be really hard cuz the algo here is based on upvotes and time posted iirc). And “large amount” part is just legal filler words.
As does all the American owned networks. That’s not the reason. Not pushing American propaganda is the reason.
That’s what they’re telling you, and since when are they telling the truth?
I think aliens did it.
Thank god for bold platforms like TikTok that refuse to push US propaganda. Really smart of them to not censor valuable information as a way of fooling the US government into exposing its evil censorship ways. TikTok’s fate in the US was never a topic before the current wave of pro-Palestinian activism started. It certainly wasn’t one of Trump’s main talking points ten years ago. Good thing he changed his mind after getting his hands on
some Chinese moneylucrative investmenet from Chinese citizens that are not at all connected to Tencent.None of this discourse on combatting foreign information manipulation started over a decade ago, its all about censoring pro-Palestine voices here and now. TikTok and China in general are known for their calm, collected attitudes toward Muslims. They certainly would never weaponize a contentious topic every which way imaginable in pursuit of financial and geopolitical goals. We need more of these open and bold platforms.
Yeah, only AMIERICAN companies can spy on our citizens and flood them with propaganda!
USA! USA! USA!
Of course it’s more worrying to the American government when it’s a foreign government spying on their citizens. It’s not really a double standard but rather just sensible from the gov’s pov.
Can someone explain to me how it’s worse for a foreign government to have your information than your own government having that same information? Your own government is far more likely to actually be able to do something about you.
Foreign governments are supposed to buy information from American social media companies. Tik Tok cut out the middleman so they’re getting banned.
It probably won’t make a difference for you, but if you worked in a government facility and they’re spying on you, obtaining credentials, obtaining information on infrastructure in the energy sector, government facilities, etc., getting network credentials, getting floorplans, getting times where a changing of the guard occurs, etc. - any foreign entity can use that info to tear a country down from the inside and kick off a full scale war.
Local government isn’t going to self-saborage with that information. Yeah, spying on the citizens is awful and we should avoid any apps/devices that do that too, but that’s not as bad as war unless it gets so bad that it gets to a point of civil war which seems unlikely.
inb4 tankies claim “conspiracy”:
China hacked US Telecom Infrastructure
China hacking US Treasury
Two recent events I was able to dig up fairly quickly. Wouldn’t be surprised if there’s more. Apparently they tapped Trump’s phone too, but not sure how credible the article/source is.That’s true but it doesn’t apply to the vast majority of people. People who work in the government should be more aware of these things and I believe the tiktok ban started as only on government devices which is a lot more reasonable than a blanket ban.
Yup, much better to let a foreign evil government have your data than the local evil government that actually has control where you live.
“It’s okay that the CCP pushes propaganda because billionaires do it too” - Tiktok defenders
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(there are several people in this thread who would not mind banning certain lemmy instances on this basis)
Reader’s Note - There has been no evidence submitted showing any of the allegations towards TikTok are true. In fact TikTok publicly embarked on a project to silo all US Data.
OK, but find me an exact quote that actually says that. Not something that sorta sounds like that, but that exactly.
What kind of propaganda is the CGP pushing, exactly? Is it with us in the room, right now?
This has been known for years.
I promise, the CCP does not need you to play devil’s advocate; they advocate plenty well for themselves.
The first one is NCRI and the second one is paywalled.
NCRI is known for hit songs like -
Colleges that deplatform conservatives are anti-semitic;
DEI causes violence, and my favorite;
Luigi Mangione’s support means the left are digital insurgents
The paper referenced gives an overview of its methodology and its data.
The three ‘hit songs’ you cite appear to actually be:
and
- Glorification of Luigi Mangione could result in a feedback loop of violence like 4chan did with the alt-right (I agree, but I don’t see it as necessarily a bad thing)
Use https://12ft.io/ to bypass the paywall if you’re interested in past discourse on the matter.
Lol, fair play, I editorialized the titles too. But really once you click into them it’s super obvious these guys have an axe to grind. For example, (from the relevant paper) they state that serving up less Anti CCP content is a bias. But they compare it to YouTube and Instagram. Two services pretty famous for taking people down far right tracks if you let their algorithm auto play. So in this case even a neutral position is going to have less Anti-CCP propaganda.
And the entire paper is flawed in this way. The baseline they establish is itself flawed. They also claim causation but can only show correlation with their skewed baseline.
Yea, they were comparing tiktok to other american-owned social media sites, which are guilty of exactly the same thing themselves.
Any site that doesn’t explicitly push anti chinese content is going to look like a pro-chinese bias
The researchers found that while TikTok might not deliver more pro-CCP content, it did deliver less anti-CCP content than the rival platforms.
Umm, that’s not really propaganda, homie. That’s simple censorship. There’s a difference.
The very next thing said in the article:
The team next looked at engagement to see if this explained why anti-CCP content was performing less well. But it found that TikTok users “liked or commented on anti-CCP content nearly four times as much as they liked or commented on pro-CCP content, yet the search algorithm produced nearly three times as much pro-CCP content”. This didn’t happen on Instagram or YouTube.
Yes. I already said it was censorship. Again: how is this pro-CCP propaganda? Do you understand the difference between censorship and propaganda?
Yes. I already said it was censorship. Again: how is this pro-CCP propaganda? Do you understand the difference between censorship and propaganda?
If you don’t think that suppressing content that goes against a point of view whilst simultaneously boosting content that agrees with a point of view is propaganda, I suppose you must think Twitter’s recent developments over the past two years (or so? Time is getting fuzzy) are not a propaganda effort either.
My point is: if we all would use a more broad definition of the term propaganda, instead of calling nothing but political messaging we didn’t like propaganda, we’d all live in a more politically literate society.
I think this meme actively reduces media literacy.
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What? Wechat is a thing here? I have literally never heard about Wechat like anywhere, pretty sure more people know about Lemmy in the US than Wechat lmao
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What the hell is WeChat? Did that WeWork guy start a social media service?
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app only, no website
Oh fuck this future! Anyways, thanks for the information.
They should force TikTok to be sold to the Taiwan government.
i like my all-american freedom and liberty data collection and propaganda
FreeDumb™️
Since this is the place for the most serious discussion:
If US lawmakers focused on protecting American’s privacy with some sensible privacy laws coughGDPR equivalent cough, we could avoid pulling out the ban hammer to play whack-a-mole on these companies.
Companies would simply be punished by the law for being malicious or irresponsible with your data, forcing industries to take privacy seriously and make investments in protecting and not leaking it.
Yes, now they just need the incentive to act and the knowledge of how to operate electronic devices.
Companies would simply be punished by the law
can you show me any recent examples of this happening with any effectiveness?
