TL;DR: Due to being smaller and lighter, electric bikes and mopeds require significantly less energy to move themselves around than an electric car. The article starts with a headline about “oil demand” but then spends much of the rest of its length harping on consumer monetary costs instead. I could have said that in a lot fewer words. Actually, I just did.
Also, in SE Asia and other places where the primary mode of transport is a small motorbike, as it happens these small motorbikes actually pollute a lot for their displacement due to having basic uncomplicated engines, often not running very well, and lousy or absent emissions controls. ICE vehicles are also at their worst fuel consumption/distance traveled ratio when they’re idling or crawling around urban areas at low speed. Replacing these with electric versions just makes sense.
Full disclosure: I own a gas guzzling truck, a fuel efficient car, seven motorcycles, and an electric bicycle. I use different tools for different jobs, as appropriate. If you’re looking for a magic bullet, you will probably need it in a few different calibers.
I need to kill an elephant. What should I drive?
Your ancestors hunted the mammoth on foot with a rock tied to a stick. Use that.
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A Sherman?
Out of your seven motorcycles, which one is used for which purpose?
I’ll bet you weren’t expecting to get an actual answer to this, but I’m going to give you one. (Spoiler: None of them are a Harley.)
First, I do use all of my bikes for commuting (the electric bicycle often, too, when the fancy strikes me) and usually ride a different one each day. They all get better mileage than my car and certainly better than my truck.
KLR650: Long distance touring and adventure rides, motocamping, hauling comically large objects that should not be transported by motorcycle.
Bashan BSR-250/Enforcer: I ostensibly bought this for my nephew to ride on adventure trips with me, but I also use it for tooling around town, light duty shopping, etc.
Honda VT750C/Shadow A.C.E.: Two up riding and touring, also good for making lots of obnoxious noise. My wife likes the passenger seat and sissy bar. Goes faster than the Vanvan, even with two people on it for long trips.
Yamha FZ6R: Dicking around on twisty roads. Irritating Tesla/M3/AMG/Corvette owners.
Orion/Nicot RXB250L: Playing in the dirt, at the motocross track, off road, doing wheelies, and narrow technical trails I probably shouldn’t try to manhandle the KLR down.
Honda CH50/Metropolitan: In town errands, shopping trips. It achieves ludicrous fuel economy and you can fit a lot of stuff under the seat. My wife rides this one more than I do.
Suzuki RV200/Vanvan: Bought for my wife to learn how to ride a “real” motorcycle, i.e. with a clutch and gears. She uses it for motocamping trips.
Relevant username, lol.
I used to have a DR650, and used it much like your KLR. It was getting tothe point where I had to fix it all the time, I had another weird little bike that I couldn’t get parts for which also needed help… I ended up selling both and buying one bike that I could just ride. I love riding, and love different bikes for different things, but I don’t like maintaining a fleet of stuff, keeping tags up to date on a fleet of bikes, so…
I love the little RV! Used to have a GSF 400. Those small suzukis are so fun
TLDR: they’re all for driving
As opposed to what, exactly? Eating?
Well you tried to spin it like they’re each a unique tool serving a special purpose that you need fulfilled.
But really you’re just a guy who likes motorcycles.
Yes? That’s how it works.
You can draw a triangle and label the points “highway,” “dirt,” and “urban” and any bike you pick will describe a dot in one position on that triangle and never ever touch all three points at the same time.
All vehicles are for the purposes of transportation (or recreation), just possibly for moving different types of things across different terrain with different strengths and weaknesses. You’re trying to split a hair that doesn’t need to be split as if it’s some kind of “gotcha” that everyone in the world knows is irrelevant except you.
Driving on dirt isn’t exactly a special purpose that you need fulfilled. Most people live their lives just fine with zero motorcycles, and here you are with seven trying to tell us you need them all.
If you’re looking for a magic bullet, you will probably need it in a few different calibers.
That’s a clever way to put it and I like it
Over consumption is probably worse for the environment than petrol powered cars
If you’re looking for a magic bullet, you will probably need it in a few different calibers.
This is an excellent phrase and I’m going to have to start using it
Silver buckshot is how I describe it
This article is vastly understating the potential benefits of e-bikes. Like-for-like replacements for car trips are only the tip of the iceberg; the real benefit of e-bikes is that the more people that use them, the less car parking we need. That means we can put back all those buildings we destroyed when we razed our cities for the car.
Fuck more buildings…make parking lots into parks and green spaces
Why not both? More housing and more parks. Win win.
We need more lanes. Just one more lane and we’ll be done with trafic, I swear!1!!one!1!1!
that’s kind of assumed to happen if you packed people into tighter and tighter densities
Don’t forget you can ride a mile or two to the train station and get around like that.
Even if you have a bike in town and one at home. Two bikes are cheaper than 1 car and more space efficient.
If everyone had an ebike, getting on and off the train would be a complete pain in the ass. I guess if there were lock boxes it might be OK, but hundreds of people trying to get their bike on a train would be a nightmare
Many urban-suburban trains, and even some regional trains, have entire cars dedicated for bicycles, with no (or only few) seats. This is very scalable on multiple scales, when the demand is growing:
- Adding more bicycle cars to existing bike-friendly trains 🏩🚞🚃🚃🚃🚃🏫
- Adding more bike-friendly trains to existing lines 🚆🚆🚉🚊🚇🚇
- Building new well-placed bike-friendly stations on existing lines 🏢🏪🚵♂️🚵♀️🚈
- Adding more passenger railway lines to existing rail networks. 🛤️🛤️🛤️🛤️🛤️
There are definitely scaling limits for bike on trains, 1 bike takes up the space and manoeuvre room that could fit 3 or 4 people. Bike to station, leave bike there, use (ad hoc rental) other bike at destination is clearly a lot more scalable than filling trains with bikes.
1 bike takes up the space and manoeuvre room that could fit 3 or 4 people.
I’d say two bikes in a well-designed alternating rack along the wall takes up about the same space as two seats beside each other. Also, some people will stand along the bikes if their train ride is short, taking up less space than a seat. My estimate would be that 1 person + 1 bike ≈ 1,75 seats on average.
Beside that, I think you have a valid point in that a big part of the solution is locally available micromobility options, but I don’t think bike-friendly trains wouldn’t be a part of the solution too, since people will probably still want to own bikes, scooters etc. in the future. I, at least, like owning things that make my life easier.
I’ve done the bike-on-train thing many times and in many countries. The issue isn’t just the space the bike needs on the train itself, it’s the space the person needs to be able to get a bike on board without blocking the path and the infrastructurerequired to get the bike right next to the train. Trains fit for many bikes need wider doors, more doors (that costs seats), alignment between platform and train becomes even more important, that the platforms are very accessible too (there is often, if you’re lucky, 1 elevator to the platform that fits 1 or 2 bikes at a time, that elevator gets jammed up and competes with wheelchairs and childstrollers and large suitcases very quickly) et cetera. Many smaller stations still have 0 elevators of ramps, only stairs. The only somewhat convenient bike on a train is the foldable bike, but even that creates the hassle described, tho less. I try to avoid taking my own bike on a train (and I think taking your own is usually too cheap compared to a person-ticket and the hassle taking the bike creates).
Anyhow, I think 1 person + 1 bike = 1,75 seats is underestimating it a lot.
K but… what’s up with the emoji?
Dunno, had fun 🤸♂️
I did the math once for my own commute, on my e-bike and with my electric car, and found that while the electric car uses only 20% of the energy that an average gas-powered car would, the bike uses just 1%. My bike, on my route (both directions averaged together) got 2,200 mpge.
Miles per gallon energy? What’s that abbreviation?
Just another example of how Americans will use anything but metric (we do use metric sometimes, I know, it’s just a meme). We could easily measure it in Wh/km, but then we would also have to change how we measure gasoline cars if we want people to make direct comparisons. But, since we sell gas by the gallon, we would also have to change how gas is sold. When the EPA first came up with mpge I thought it was stupid (we don’t buy electricity by the gallon!), but I’ve come around to the convenience of being able to easily compare the two types of fuel. The EPA assumes 1 gallon of gas to contain 33.7 kWh of energy.
Maybe we should get everyone to switch to Joules for measuring, buying, and selling gasoline and electricity?
It’s a pretty flawed comparison, though. It assumes a certain amount of fossil fuels being burned at the power plant that’s feeding your electric car. That’s a number that varies a lot between regions, and is bound to change as more and more renewables are spun up. Putting solar panels on your home throws the whole comparison out. It’s nearly useless.
Isn’t the point for the consumer to measure their cost? Not the overall efficiency of the production and distribution for each source of fuel?
Like I buy X gallons per month of gas because my car gets 20 mpg and I dive Y miles. If this electric car uses Z amount of electricity and I still drive Y miles, I’ll save ß dollars.
It is not really possible for the consumer to calculate their respective mpge, since your specific utlities power mix will differ region by region.
That’s the idea, but it doesn’t actually do that. Even if it did, the cost would be variable by region, so it’s still imperfect.
You’re using kWh instead of Joules in your comment. :P
Joules represent a very small amount of energy. We probably want kWh or kJ. Although, I think just places in the US already use kWh for electricity?
It’s not complicated. Mpge allows you to compare energy efficiency vs internal combustion cars. They also provide kWh/100 mi, which allows you to calculate actual cost of operation, depending on how much you pay for a kWh.
The E is for Equivalent. It’s how “fuel” efficiency is discussed when referring to non liquid fuel vehicles.
Gotcha, thanks.
Yup. There’s a Wikipedia page listing all the modes of transportation and their efficiency. Electric bikes are just about the most energy efficient way to transport humans.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport
This is a weird definition they’re using, and it doesn’t encompass the whole box. An electric vehicle might be more efficient on a distance per unit energy basis, but it’s less efficient on a total energy basis because we lose some of the energy in the electrification.
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My only problem with ebikes is there’s no chance in hell I’m consistently driving on the road with cars.
With how convenient these are, I hope there’s more push to add protected bike lanes in road heavy places to increase adoption.
Get an electric scooter, Vespa size. It’s super convenient.
To clarify - I’m not going on the road in anything but a car
Protected lanes or paths only for me on any form of bike/scooter
Chicken :-)
When I was younger and more invincible around 2005, I bought one of these crappy Ebay engine kits for a bicycle. One thing I noticed is that it wasn’t really any slower from home to work than a car, because I could go around traffic. An E-bike would have been great. A lot of them get around on 500 watt or 750 watt motors, which is considerably smaller than an electric car’s motor.
I’d have one now, but it’s hard to ride one when I have to carry a kid with me most places.
I’d have one now, but it’s hard to ride one when I have to carry a kid with me most places.
I got an e-bike because I needed to carry a kid (actually, two) around with me. FYI, cargo bikes are a thing:
There is no way the kids sitting on the back of the bike in that picture are safe…
No less safe than wheeling a kid around in a little red wagon or letting them ride their own bicycle.
Little Red wagons generally don’t travel at 20mph in the street with cars going even faster. That kid in the photo can barely hold herself upright. One little wiggle or unexpected turn and she’ll slip right through those bars and under an SUV.
Seriously, you might as well just put your kid in to one of these.
Oh no, look at all the super dangerous people biking with kids on them.
https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?si=qlcN0Y9YrykPIlPe
People really don’t fall off of bike seats easily. Maybe you should try biking.
Literally millions of people have bought e-bikes specifically to carry kids. I own one, and my kid loves riding on the back. I have never heard of a kid falling off of one either.
Radbikes even makes a bicycle specifically designed to carry children on the back (the radwagon) - and so does Extracycle, Trek, Lectric, Yuba and half a dozen or so other long tail e-bike brands.
Maybe you should try biking.
You wanna compare Strava profiles Big Boy?
My issue isn’t with carrying kids on the back of bikes. It can and is done safely. My issue is with what is happening in this specific picture, and even more specifically with the smallest child.
Shame on you for not being willing to sacrifice your children for the cause! Go back to truth social where you belong!
/s of course
If you want a pissing competition, I’ve spent the last 25 years biking about 10 miles each way for work. Plus a couple of trips to the coast every year, so that’s about a hundred miles each way.
I don’t even own a road bike.
it’s only unsafe because of all the cars. aside from that, whats’ the danger, they might fall out?
it’s only unsafe because of all the cars. aside from that, whats’ the danger…
Swimming in a pool of razor blades is only unsafe because of all the razor blades. Aside from that, what’s the danger?
…they might fall out?
Yes
car dominance is literally a conspiracy by big oil to make us dependent, it is in no way natural.
Cars exist, you can’t just ignore them. They’ll run you over whether you believe in them or not
It will never not be funny to me how scared some people are of any transportation that’s not a car.
there are so many people who have both no cognitive ability to imagine something they haven’t personally experienced or is the norm and have never gotten anywhere any other way but a car.
it’s funny to because compared to literally anything but a motorcycle cars are hella dangerous, and the deaths from all the other modes except airplanes are from getting hit by a car
Nah this is completely right though. Soon as she stops those two kids are gonna bonk heads together, the smaller one needs a bike seat at the very least, and the toddler probably needs one as well. You could still do that with a bike like this, so it doesn’t discount the point entirely, but the image itself is a pretty stupidly conceived piece of work.
It’s fun how the preview image for the article has two kids being carried around. But I can understand if you don’t see that as safe in your area, etc.
My daughter would absolutely not ride in that.
Have you ever put your kid on a bike? How would you know?
Yes. For context, she’s 4 and very skittish. I have a burley trailer for my bike I got in the hopes that we could ride together. I only successfully got her in it once for a gentle ride around the park. She screamed in terror the entire time. She does, however, love taking public trans.
I have both am ev and an ebike, and a 7 mile commute.
Driving takes between 20 minutes and an hour and a half. Biking takes 45 minutes no matter what.
Car uses about 25x more energy though and parking is around $20/day.
I should add my son much prefers the bike.
I love my Bafang too but be careful of regulation depending on your country, an e-bike is 250W so of you put a more powerful motor you get in the moped category with different rules (helmet, back mirror, insurance…)
Whaaaaat? You mean electric last-mile micromobility cuts down on emissions in a significant way, just like people had been saying for years? Who would have thought?
Car-brain finds small electric vehicles are more efficient, in shocking study.
… but will instantly fabricate reasons why the car will be needed at least 5 times a day anyway.
Goddamn I love my ebike. It’s still very much a bike, but it changes the equation. I can ride a nice big heavy comfortable cruising frame, pull my kid in a trailer bike, get up steep hills that would otherwise stop me, and go 4x as far before I’m tired. It is just a total game changer. I’ve rediscovered the joy of riding my bike like I haven’t known it since college. I’m older and creakier than ever but my bike enjoyment hasn’t diminished - it has increased.
Same! I live on the top of a big hill, so leaving my house on a bike was never the issue, but I always dreaded the ride home. Now I own an ebike and I regularly use it to go into town for groceries. In fact, I just added a second basket so I can buy three full bags of groceries in one trip. I find myself actually looking forward to errands now.
Also, it keeps you in shape!
Yes! And I’m pretty lazy about exercise so having the “help me” button there keeps me from avoiding the bike.
I have heard this for years now. This all fine. I also have an E-Bike. I really love using it. But I live in central Europe. Weather is really shitty here from October-March. I use my car then. And no, clothing for biking in bad weather is not an option for me. I really can’t be bothered to change clothes on my job. I just won’t do that.
And the issue is where? You can just fuel up your car with co2 neutral fuel (like many Europeans already do with HVO100 Diesel in Sweden, the Netherlands and many other countries) and do the rest with your ebike. You probably dropped your co2 footprint to less than 5 tonns. The fact that HVO100 Diesel right now is ~30 cents more expensive doesn’t matter anymore. B33 gasoline is coming and 2025 it’s expected to be ramped up to 100% sustainable.
And compared to a BEV that needs more than 10-15 tonns to be even produced, just driving an older or cheaper car longer still makes it less co2 overall.
shameless plug !wintercycling@lemmy.world
I really can’t be bothered to change clothes on my job. I just won’t do that
I mean… you do you, but that gear generally amounts to a jacket, pants that go OVER your pants and different shoes. You’re just fucking lazy. Own it
Yup. I invested in rain pants and a jacket, all I need now are shoe coverings. Get to work, strip it all off in 30 secs and put it in a waterproof bag. It’s just a matter of adjusting expectations and habits.
To me it’s way less complicated than driving. I don’t have to worry about gas, traffic, parking, maintenance, break downs, and the stress of driving in the rain trying not to kill anyone. I understand why people are hesitant, but I think a lot of people just need to suck it up and give it a shot.
Also, public transportation is just straight up better than both driving/cycling when done right.
I went to dedicated rain/winter shoes and it was much better than overshoe booties.
You’re just fucking lazy.
Absolutely. Is there any context in which you can “I can’t be bothered with…” interpret as anything else as lazy? But so what? I will not ride my bike in shitty weather. And most people will do the same thing.
You can also do you, but you kind of lose any sort of moral high ground in this argument by insisting that others solve the problem for you when you can’t even do the bare fucking minimum
So… I go to work by e-bike 8 out of 12 months. Whenever I take my car, I take my BEV (MG4) that I charge with electricity from renewable sources.
And you? What do you actually do for the environment?
If you want to play the upstreaming game, where did the rare earth metals in your electric car come from?
Electric cars are here to save the car industry, not the environment.
Let’s stay on topic: Environment. Human rights is a whole nother can of worms. What do you think the supply chain of whatever device you are using for lemmee right now looks like?
Back to environment: What are you doing for the environment except for judging others: I drive a car that has a very low carbon footprint regarding its whole lifespan. Also I ride to work on an E-Bike 8 out of 12 months. What are you doing?
Watched a YouTube about electric vs gas scooters in Taiwan 🇹🇼. Apparently it’s like 6 scooters for every 10 people, crazy!
But the uptake of electric scooters wasn’t as much as they thought, but a lot of complaints were around “cost”, “parking” and “weight”
Sounds like an electric bicycle would solve all those issues over an electric scooter 🛵
Especially for the poorer, high 2 wheel usage nations, like Vietnam or India.
Just have to pedal a bit! 😉
First and foremost, people can afford them.
Love to see this!
On a related note: Feel free to stop by !micromobility@lemmy.world
Ebikes need secure destination parking or they lose usefulness
Also safety. In my area the bike lanes are just paint and some streets don’t have sidewalks.
I know drivers are idiots but in my area bikes are supposed to ride on the streets. Could get a ticket for being in the sidewalk.
Same where I live, too. But I ride on the sidewalk anyway. No one has ever said anything about it in decades and I’d rather not get killed.
i just dont understand how usa and europe still has this super high bike thievery
Great income disparity, and the bikes are worth thousands, so valuable targets.
This reads like an advertisement. Not saying it is. But it does.
Edit: Oh, AAP (Australian Associated Press)! Then it’s definitely an advertisement.
these are feasible in cities that you wouldn’t want to drive a car in anyways. probably not so good for commuting around Boise Idaho
Boise is a college down that is VERY bike friendly. Nearly 200miles of bike lanes and trails.
I’ve never actually been there I don’t know anything about it
We sold our car and committed around Tacoma for about 6 months before we moved to the Netherlands. It was awful in a ton of ways, but for a lot of trips it was way better. The majority of trips are under a mile, so dropping the kids off at preschool and stuff was way better on a bike. It’s actually quite a bit faster since kids love to get on the bike instead of the long fight against the car seat.
We also did a few shopping trips. You can’t really do much more than 3 bags on a long tail bike with two kids in the back, but it worked well enough for shopping trips. People look at you like you’re crazy in the US when you’ve got things strapped all over your bike, but here it’s just completely normal. We probably would ride year round there if it wasn’t for how dangerous cars are when it rains. I have no problem biking in the wind and the rain here because I know I’m not going to be randomly murdered by some idiot in a multiton metal box.
I’m not familiar with Boise, but I’d bet that an eBike would still be better for a lot of trips.
He he, yeah, riding strapped into the little kid’s seat behind mom on a bike was exciting as hell when you were little…
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extremely expensive.
Not compared to owning/maintaining a car.
And winters.
Say it to delivery workers in Moscow. No, say it to Finns.
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Given winter being almost constant weather condition in Finland I assume they don’t stop delivering because they are on another side of melting point.
And about Russians yes. I see food delivery workers using ebikes entire year in any weather.
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I guess my eyes are uninforming me
Or how to prepare for winter delivery in Saint Petesbirg.
TLDR:
- Warm clothes
- Not an iphone or any other poorly-designed piece of crap that won’t last even few hours
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To bad a decent electric bike is extremely expensive.
I’d say decent ones are down to about $1000 these days.
Wichita, KS
I’d drive one to work.
wouldn’t you get wacked by savages
Not on the way to work. It’d be after I showed up.
Because Boise, ID is not interested in building the necessary infrastructure for ideological reasons.
I’m going to wager this comment was posted and upvoted by people who have never been to Boise. Because that place has a good amount of people biking around. Especially around Boise state and for recreation.
Been to Boise many time. Take a trip to Europe and then come back and tell me what you think of Boise’s bike infrastructure.
Any American city is going to look like shit compared to Europes biking capitals.
Compare a super blue “bike friendly” city like San Francisco to Amsterdam. It’s not even a fair contest. SF is a fucking cycling death trap in comparison to Amsterdam.
Sure. I’m just saying that there are a lot of opposition in many US cities to building green and more progressive infrastructure that doesn’t specifically benefit cars. Especially in red states.
True, but often times stuff like this boils down to the city planning and city budget, not the state. And a lot of major metro areas are pretty blue, even in red states.
Oftentimes the biggest barrier is that the bones of US city planning was done with cars in mind, and trying to accommodate bikes afterwards is difficult. Which is why US cities that want bikes struggle with supporting them.
Many old European city layouts were baked before cars were a thing.
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Is this some universe where people forgot bikes exist? How are electric vehicles better than riding a bike?
They are much better for the shareholders.
For people with disabilities and chronic injuries, yes they are better and provides accessibility. Don’t forget that people with disabilities exist in this universe too.
Less effort? I don’t know where environmentalists got the idea that the average guy is a cross fit three time gold medalist, most people want effortless traversal
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Seriously, and cycling isn’t really even that strenuous. Like the fact that people actually believe this makes it all the more clear why obesity rates are sky high. Like do really people not understand how bodies work?
It doesn’t look like you do if you’re so oblivious that people with disabilities would benefit with something like this.
That’s where other means of public transport such as transit, trains, and buses fill in— all things that help reduce carbon emissions as well. Larger sidewalks too. What we need are options.
You’d be surprised how easy biking is. Plus the more you do it the easier it gets.
easier to steal too, which why prefer folded bike so I can take it to my office instead of parking it outside for easy theft
I would love to have a Brompton or something like that for the same reason. Or easier to take it to other cities to ride.
It also makes you less fat, and smarter. Yes, exercise actually makes you smarter. Maybe we should push people towards exercising, and let them discover bikes by themselves?
I’m a cyclist myself and a few members of my family went out and bought ebikes before they would even go on casual kid friendly rides with me on their traditional bikes. While I appreciate the ebike making people more confident biking I feel like the people I know with ebikes could have literally just used a traditional bike and in a month they wouldn’t find it hard.
People with disabilities would benefit. We get it. You don’t approve of them having something that could possibly benefit them.
I didn’t mention people with disabilities. I’m very pro people with disabilities buying and using ebikes. What I am attempting to get across is that a lot of people would do great with trying to cycle before dropping big money on an ebike.
Right so everyone with chronic injuries are just too stupid to work it out! Of course. So simple! /s
Or that people with disabilities exist and probably benefit from e-bikes too.
