Bait? In my Christian shitposting community?
I would never!
It’s a Godric post. What else would you expect??
The downside of creating political shitposts in this community is feeling obligated to read the parapgraphs on paragraphs of seemingly serious political theory that no one asked for.
Praxis
JuSt ReAd tHeOry bRo!
I wish I had it saved but this one time a commenter basically said “I don’t have time to explain this to you” and then came back 6 hours later with 1000 word reply.
At some point, you have to lean into the shit part of shitpost and accept that you’re posting in a troll thread
Oh you’re not allowed to dislike both.
“Everything I don’t like is CIA propaganda” is the usual argument.
Of course, the CIA and US Government does actually do propaganda campaigns. Whether via things like the Voice Of America radio station. Or like
Domestic Anti-Communist stuff:
Operation Mockingbird bird: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird,
The Crusade for Cultural Freedom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_for_FreedomThe Congress for Cultural Freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_for_Cultural_Freedom
The Red Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare
More general fuckery:
Lavender Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare
The suppression of the PRISM information program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
Suppression of wartime massacres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukaradeeb_wedding_party_massacre
The assassin of Fred Hampton (American communist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Fred_HamptonThe killing of MLK (American Socialist).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luther_King_Jr.And that’s just a small portion of the US government propaganda campaigns they’ve run ON AMERICAN CITIZENS AND CULTURE. Not including things like the outlawing of Anarchism, or whatever the hell people like Allen Dulles and George Bush Senior were up to…
…and all of this is before even asking about overseas propaganda campaigns.
So yes, the CIA has definitely been heavily involved in curbing American opinions, and massively suppressing support for Communism and Socialism in America.
American Free speech - but only to an extent, after that you’ll have to deal with government interference.
American Free speech - but only to an extent, after that you’ll have to deal with government interference.
solid list. reality check: do you think this kind of stuff happens exclusively in the US?
do you think other countries aren’t trying to influence the rest of the world?
When russia gives someone tea with polonium as sweetener?
I agree, the US has a ton of horrid shit in its history, and we don’t seem to be improving. but there’s a lot of space between “at some point or another, almost all nations do wretched and awful shit. because they’re ALL made of humans”
Yeah, the CIA is bad. So is the KG-FSB and Mossad and MI6 and everyone else.
All states have propaganda campaigns against specific things/areas of discussion.
America (like most western “liberal” democracies) heavily targets leftist causes, such as Communism, Anarchism, Socialism, Peace movements, and climate change activists.
Many of which threaten to protest big oil companies, the millitary industrial complex, domestic spying on citizens, big polluters, industries that want to under pay workers, tech billionaires and AI data centers.
As a Westerner I find that list of areas of concern and suppression to be much more representative of things I want addressed by democracy than I do the existence of tankies, communists, and socialists.
So my gripe is about proportionality. The powers that be would prefer we focus on tankies and the ills of soviet era communism - because that makes us divided and focused there rather than on modern corporate Capitalism and its corruption of our democracy.
That would be my reality check.
While they whole heartedly suck, it doesn’t mean they’re responsible for everything that sucks.
Tankies don’t look at the shitty things China and Russia do.
Tankies: “ACAB except for Chinese and Russian cops who wear the tastiest boots nom nom nom”
Yes, and anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do.
The critique cuts both ways. I don’t think either side has much of a solution… But right now - in the west - it’s clear that too much Socialism is not the problem.
The West is Cappoed out right now. Kind of tired of it.
Hey kid, wanna buy us a new Data Center?
No thanks Sir, please leave me alone.
anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do
I don’t think either side has much of a solution
You are conflating not being a tankie with being an anticommunist.
Being a communist shouldn’t stop you from ciritquing your own state. A healthy communist state allows for open critique and discussion of what works and what doesn’t. Otherwise you risk autocracy.
And I would hazard calling China and Russia communist states. Russia doesn’t even call itself communist anymore. And China is a one party autocracy with a free market. They’re only communists in name.
What’s your definition of communist? For me it implies a centrally planned economy to the exclusion of any free market and is definitely at great risk to fall into autocracy. I think that kind of project is doomed from the start, so I wouldn’t call identify myself as a communist.
I am not sure. I’ve never given it a concrete thought. Communism as a whole is very nebulous. I particularly like the socialist aspects and the welfare for all goals of communism. I like the dream of not having to work to survive.
But I do not like the planned economy aspect of it. I haven’t seen anyone do planned economies well. This includes non communist countries that tried it. There’s something to say about how it is impossible to create a complex web of plans that accurately and adequately account for humanity’s ever-changing needs and wants. But economics is fairly complex and I have little authority over the subject matter to say anything with confidence.
Basically - Freemarket, multi-socialist-only party system, with four strong pillars of democracy acting as checks and balances, with welfare for all.
I don’t identify as a communist in the conventional sense or any other particular label per say. But I do lean left.
I’m not really interested in defining them or getting into that kind of argument here (not being a Communist, I don’t want to defend it).
…but I believe Market Socialism is a thing. Capitalism is (in Marxist doctrine) considered a stage of Communism, and that these discussions often overlook Vietnam…
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
… so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand you read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
To use an analogy being anti-tankie often comes across as basically saying we need to reconsider what the alt-right are saying during the Trump era… And exceedingly often comes down to “a tankie once called me a name I don’t like”.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate). I don’t like anti-tankies because they’re having a reactionary response rather than just going “those guys are dicks, but I understand within a Capitalist society”
Instead anti-tankies go, “those guys are dicks for calling me that of all people, I’m going to form a club to complain about it… Even though billionaire crony Capitalism is really the problem right now”.
So yeah, I don’t like either of them, but I understand uptight commies better than I do the reaction to them. I can hide and block the commies pretty easily.
so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
I agree.
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
Always assumed they did what china did. They realized that the tool to stay in power was stability and growth, so they incentivized development on the local and national level for climbing the party ladder and good boy points. But it’s nice to see them actually follow through with the ideals as well.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate).
I understand how that can be tiring. I’ve stopped talking to anyone who purports any fascist or anti-socialist ideals. They will never listen. They are too comfortable with the power they hold to reconsider. On lemmy, I have come across far too many tankies who confuse me to no end. They come off as religious nuts who pretend to like the same ideals I do. They are in my opinion just as worse as the anti-communists.
I don’t want to be associated with them. And I think the political spectrum is far too complicated to neatly divide people into simple categories. But it’s easier to do and who has the time to actually get to know strangers online. So, as a rule, I am against any tankie or fascist.
Don’t forget their chatbot!
Well, I’d need to be strapped to a bed in a Canadian mental home with a steady drip of LSD, and a tape on loop to forget CIA_chatbot… As the CIA discovered during their horrific MK-Ultra experiments on mental patients.
Hurtful, I’m like SUPER likable
Aww man, I put a TON of thought into my propaganda. At least give me some constructive criticism instead of just not liking it
Millions killed in purges and policy created in cults of personality.
Yeah, need to make a whole identity sh*tting on imperfect democracies while touting systems that have always devolved into dictatorships.
Or you’re just not that familiar with Capitalist and Communist history.
Killed by the British East India company famines in India and Bengal: 10 - 15 million (the company exported ALL the grain, even the grain farmers were paid with and living off. Gotta get those profits!).
Killed by the Libertarian Congo Free State under King Leopald: 10 - 15 million (but the rubber business boomed).
That’s 20 million to 30 million dead from Capitalism right there.
Killed in the USSR Gulag system? 1.5 - 2 million. Most people survived the Gulag system (18 million went in, the majority walked out alive).
Outside of that Communism had a lot of undesired and unintended famines largely contributed to by one conman scientist fabricating results to keep his job:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko#Consequences_of_Lysenko’s_views
Capitalism has in all likelihood intentionally killed waaay more people than Communism (just by the numbers)… And if you know the history, this becomes more obvious. This comment doesn’t even cover the many wars by Capitalist nations pushed and carried out in the name of profit.
Can’t tell you how many times these twats have called me a genocider.
It used to be a pretty serious word, but these losers are working overtime stripping it of all its meaning by using it on everyone that disagrees with them.
I’ve been called a zionist genocider for pointing out mass-murder is evil. People are fucking NUTS!
They sure are, and I think some of them are here to brigade this post.
The usual pattern: one, then two, then ten to defend the honor of Comrad Slaughterhouse and bury us all in bad-faith brigades.
I just respond I’m anti genocide, including, Russia’s kidnapping and trafficking Ukrainian children and China’s genocide of the Uyghars. It shuts them up or they immediately start defending them and then I call them genocides.
I’ll let my ignorance shine - what’s the b/w photo to the right?
I don’t take sides because nobody is on my side.
[Edit: --Treebeard]
Can I be on your side?
Enlightened Centrism, then?
No, enlightened centrists have representation.
I’m a socialist in the United States and AOC is gonna vote for Hakeem Fucking Jeffries for Speaker, so who is really on my side at this moment?
But in the context of the US vs China, it seems like people are always explicitly making me pick a side. Almost all the China-bashing is motivated by wanting to keep the US hegemonic, and every time I say, “Hey, why are we saying China shouldn’t rule the world but never challenging why we allow the United States to rule the world?” I get called a tankie.
It really does feel like AOC is a career politician with too deep ties with super pacs that fund most of the “moderates” in democratic party.
Please vote her out as well.
Yes let’s eat ourselves guys, it’s the only solution am I right fellow comrades? Quickly let’s fuck ourselves as hard as we can, it’s ideological purity that people need, not results!
It’s not ideological purity. I don’t have anything against her, but if she votes Jefferies then the blue wave will have little effect imo.
If america had an actual multi-party system this wouldn’t have been a problem in the first place. You get your preferred candidate and I get my preferred one, most likely in a coalition together.
So you think if Jeffreys gets to keep his job, and bearing in mind I agree with you that he is a fucking waterproof teabag, you think that this entire election cycle and all of the new people brought into congress, will have “little effect”?
I mean it would be a blow, but don’t you think that this kind of hyperbolic overreaction is unhelpful? Like, if he does, are you gonna give up? I’m not in a competition to be the most leftist, I want to push our wins and recover from our losses.
They way you talk is defeatist.
Okay, you are right. All is not lost. I am not trying to be defeatist, there will be other chances.
I just think it’s rare to see so many non career politicians win elections. It’s a good moment to shore up and solidify that base before the two party rotating system rings back in.
We have a real problem in that it’s relatively easy for establishment candidates to give off progressive signals and for the mainstream media to never challenge them, so people will happily pose as progressives and then go right back to the establishment.
Look to Susan Collins for a mirrored example of that. It’s very effective.
That said, I think we’re going to have a lot of angry primary voters in 2028 if things keep going how they’re going.
No True Progressive
If someone is a Progressive 99% of the time and fucks up 1% of the time, tHeYrE eStAbLiShMeNt NeOlIbS!!!
With this much purity testing, it’s no wonder the left has no ground to stand on in the US - the rug keeps getting pulled by people further left of whatever platform they’re on.
Meanwhile the conservatives and fascists are patting each other on the back for putting aside their differences.
Getting pissed off at voting for a house speaker with a history of opposing progressive causes after a once-in-century change election isn’t purist pique.
Dems have a chance to redefine the party into something people want to vote for. If we can’t do it, we’re giving racist Christofascism another shot at a permanent majority. We have a lot of work to do at every level and we can’t do it with a corpodem at the top of the hiearchy.
Getting pissed off at voting for a house speaker with a history of opposing progressive causes after a once-in-century change election isn’t purist pique.
It is when you try to argue that AOC is No True Progressive.
Dems have a chance to redefine the party into something people want to vote for. If we can’t do it, we’re giving racist Christofascism another shot at a permanent majority. We have a lot of work to do at every level and we can’t do it with a corpodem at the top of the hiearchy.
Cool soapbox, but I never said anything different; you’re acting like I disagree with you here.
Here’s to hoping.
Ah gotcha, you’re a purity tester; my mistake.
Are simplistic stereotypes the only way you can understand the world?
No, I just try to figure out whence cometh ridiculous behavior so I can point it out and others can ignore it in peace.
I can see why your account is a throwaway.
I can see why yours is incoherent nonsense.
Counter-revolutionaries aren’t innocent. Check mate, lib /s
REACTIONARY, REACTIONARY, YOU’RE A CIA REACTIONARY
Progressives, we have to get rid of billionaires and the wealth gap. Eat the rich.
Communists, we could put them through struggle sessions and beat them in the streets?
Neoliberals, nah, let’s see what billionaires want, let them into government.
Tank man, I have had a hell of a day and just want to get my shopping home, and now there’s a tank here. I’m gonna fuck with a millitary in the 80s.
The US: Our millitary would never Kent state, or Waco, or Ruby Ridge, or Ludlow Massacre, or Battle of Blair Mountain, or extraordinary rendition anyone! This is proof that communism is bad.
The difference between the two is getting narrower and narrower. Dystopian surveillance and murderous authorities? Check. Imperialist foreign policy built on multiple genocides? Check. Pogroms and oppression of minorities? Not only check, but the US is arguably worse than China or the USSR. Though I admit that may be due to the US having an extra century to do dirt. And don’t forget America’s the world leader in Gulags.
The idea that America is benevolent is stupid. The idea that she’s benevolent by comparison is running mighty thin.
The difference between the two is getting narrower and narrower.
“I literally cannot tell the difference between Louis XVI and Robespierre” is a thing you can say from a very great historical distance.
Uhh, yeah, we don’t disagree that America often sucks. Pointing that out in response to criticism pointed at other authoritarian regimes doesn’t make them good. For example, talking about gulags is guaranteed to trigger someone to bring up America’s incarceration rate. Does that magically make gulags good? No, it’s whataboutism and deflection.
talking about gulags is guaranteed to trigger someone to bring up America’s incarceration rate.
I didn’t mean to imply the connection between America’s gulags and the Soviets. I meant to state it explicitly. And I also want to point out the meme itself is a whataboutism.
