If it’s this easy to win them back and the Democrats couldn’t even bother, who’s the real idiot? They thought they could discard these votes and found out they couldn’t. Figure out how to continue treating them like people with understandable sorrow about the genocide in Gaza, or keep losing 🤷♂️
Figure out how to continue treating them like people with understandable sorrow about the genocide in Gaza, or keep losing
True.
But there’s more than one perspective. Do you, as a political party or government as a whole, abandon an ally you have all sorts of ties with because a sub-section of your voters don’t like that country anymore? I mean the answer is yes if you know you’ll lose enough voters to lose elections, but there’s no way they could have known that.
The proper method is to start drawing lines with the ally and see if they cross them. Biden essentially did that. Maybe not as aggressive as necessary. He did verbally state he was against what Israel was doing. He did float arms shipment cancellations to Israel. He did try to broker a peace deal. These were reasonable steps. What was unreasonable was a ton of voters expecting a full disconnection from Israel or they would not vote or vote 3rd party, which would only help a much, much worse president from taking control and giving Israel/Netanyahu two big thumbs up to do whatever they wanted.
The DNC made sure that the primary in 2024 was a joke. Even here so many people were like “how are you go against Biden! He’s the only one!”
Only, I could list off dozens of reasons why he fucked up and wouldn’t have won. (Failed to get a Trump conviction is a big one, for example.)
The whole reason he bowed out was because his campaign was clogging the shitcan, and Kamala sidelined the best thing that happened to her campaign, and proceeded to toe the corporate line saying she wouldn’t have changed anything.
(Easy dodge: “with the benefit of hindsight, of course there are things I’d change. But as I’m currently VP, I need to support my president, so please ask the next question.”)
And then there’s the whole genocide thing, and yeah. We all have lines we can’t cross.
Every state and local primary? Every congressional primary?
You know there’s an election more than once wvery four years, right? And those other elections tend to have a much greater impact on individuals than any national election.
But sure, the president is literally the only election that ever matters. And while you didnt cross that line, plenty of other people who did show up were more than happy to. Only they chose the much worse options.
You understand that the DNC threatened all of the well known candidates? And look what happened to the one guy who did- dean Phillips is no longer a credible politician.
Didn’t the DNC send Bill Clinton to Michigan and when confronted about the lackluster response of the DNC against the genocide, he started telling the attendees that it’s Israel’s right to the whole thing and they were there first? To a room full of Arab Americans?
Trump may have been necessary to get America on the right track. Had they voted Kamala in, things wouldn’t change. She even said that on the campaign trail.
If you boil it down to the barest of reasons, Trump was voted in because people wanted change. He’s a liar, a scumbag, and a rapist, and as much as you and I think the other side is dumb as fuck for voting him in, both sides realize that change is needed.
Now that Trump has been allowed to fuck things up so bad it seems that Americans are actually learning how their political system works and doing what they should have been doing all along. (Mainly voting in primaries, from my POV.)
I hope the upcoming elections reel him in
(Preferably all the way to jail) and you guys can actually get people working to improve the country. Keep it up, Americans.
Well, from this outsider’s point of view, it seems to me that Trump is a symptom of Americas’ malaise and I’m not all that sure that even his fuckups will change the trend in America of becoming ever more sick.
It looks to me that the ONLY possibly path of improvement is if these recently elected social democrats manage somehow to navigate the obstacle course set-up by the DNC, and do so propelled only by the support of voters and campaign support from common people whilst avoiding falling to the temptation of selling themselves or “compromising” for political progression.
Looking back at the Hilary vs Bernie Primary, the DNC has a ton of anti-democratic tools (such as super-voters) to make it far harder for social democrats to get elected to important positions as Democrats than it is for “traditional” Democrats.
Certainly to me so far the path for any of the handful of social democrats rising in the Democrat Party, to end up as POTUS, seems to be either non-existent or a near-impossible obstacle course (with the actual DNC being the ones making it that hard followed by the billionaire-owned Press, with the actual competence of Republicans as politicians a far 3rd)
I hope the upcoming elections reel him in (Preferably all the way to jail) and you guys can actually get people working to improve the country. Keep it up, Americans.
You have a lot more faith in Americans than I do.
Source: I’m American. There are a lot of very, very dumb people here.
Those that realize their mistake are one thing, but those who would continue to throw transgender Americans, undocumented immigrants, and aid to Ukraine under the bus purely due to a Democrat not being progressive enough on Gaza when the alternative is actively harmful to Gaza are part of the problem.
I just can’t imagine looking a Palestinian American in the eyes and telling them it’s their fault we have trump. That they should have voted for someone that was actively endangering /killing their families. It’s wild to me that we’re still blaming the victims rather than the person who supported a genocide. Still supports a genocide. Idk dude, I voted for her but I can totally empathize with certain people who were just not able to do it. I don’t blame them. If you’re gonna have a line ‘genocide literally against my family’ is a pretty fucking reasonable one. No, this is on Democrats, full stop.
I suspect it’s only those who have weak or no principles who don’t understand how other people might have principles in some domain which are so strong and so morally defining that they simply can’t bring themselves to vote for anybody breaking those principles.
It’s one thing to logically disagree with the lack of pragmatism of somebody not being able to vote for somebody supporting child mass murder abroad even to stop somebody who, whilst also supporting child mass murder abroad also supported a few more bad things.
It’s a whole different thing to blame somebody for not voting for anybody supporting child mass murder.
Unlike what some seem to think, voting for somebody who supports child mass murder abroad because they’re not as bad on things which affect you more closely (i.e. national policy) as the other candidate who also supports child mass murder abroad, isn’t a Moral High Ground from were to talk down to people who on moral grounds refuse to vote for anybody who would support child mass murder.
(Also and this being Politics, it seems to me that the competent candidate who trully means to represent their voters would move towards what voters want - especially on subjects that many voters would see as symptomatic of the candidate’s general character, such as child mass murder support - rather than expect voters to move towards the candidate’s views)
that they simply can’t bring themselves to vote for anybody breaking those principles.
But what if by not voting or voting for someone who literally cannot win you are helping someone who makes it clear they will violate the principles you hold dear even more flagrantly? Because that’s what happened.
One or the other WILL win. So do you help as much as you can or do you sit in a corner and cry?
I honestly don’t feel bad about blaming the people that chose to sit in a corner and cry. Especially because their decision to do so affected a whole lot more than genocide on the other side of the planet.
isn’t a Moral High Ground
For me it isn’t a moral high ground. It’s making the decision that is BEST for my country AND the people in Gaza and wondering why the people who chose to cry in a corner couldn’t do the same.
it seems to me that the competent candidate who trully means to represent their voters would move towards what voters want
Geopolitics isn’t some simple thing. Should a candidate run on abandoning an ally when a subset of their voters don’t like that country anymore? Especially if they aren’t sure that those voters represent enough of the total to cost them the election? And when a lot of their voters still do want to be allies with that country?
Turns out a lot of people can’t see the forest for the trees.
We don’t really know if the other candidate who also very openly proclaimed her “unwavering support” for Israel would cause Israel to act differently in any way form or shape - you’re just assuming a “rosy outcome” had things been different based on at best wishful thinking, possibly even just tribalist loyalty (you think your tribe’s leader is better and thus assume she would do things better, even in the face of her very openly supporting Israel just as much as the other candidate which indicates that on this subject such thing cannot be assumed).
Further, parties will put forwards on subsequent elections different candidates if the ones they put forward in previous elections got trashed by voters. This means that refusing to vote actually influences which choices will be available in the next cycle of this Ultimatum Game. I have actually seen this happen in Europe (and in fact in America too: the Republicans changed from conservatives to populist Fascists exactly by following the electorate which turns out to have quite a high percentage or Racists)
Turns out a lot of people when it comes to politics can’t (or maybe refuse) to logically analyze things beyond the superficial 1st order effects.
I just can’t imagine looking a Palestinian American in the eyes
Palestinian Americans should have known Trump/Republicans were the worst case scenario for their friends and family in Gaza. It wasn’t exactly a secret.
No, this is on Democrats, full stop.
So you expect a political party, or government as a whole, to fully break ties with an allied nation because a subset of their voters don’t like that country anymore?
No I voted for her. But if you’re telling people to vote for genocide you’re probably the problem, not them. If both candidates are saying they’re gonna kill your family you’re probably not going to take a day off work to vote for one of them. Maybe don’t put voters in that position if you want to win elections.
The point is ensuring that those same voters don’t repeat their mistake and indirectly aid in the election of Vance or Rubio, something that would cement the legacy of Project 2025.
“Joe, the car thief, is better than Mike, the serial mass murderer”
Except not at all.
One was a successful prosecutor that brought justice to a lot of shitty people/organizations and was a candidate for a political party that creates/supports social programs.
The other was a convicted felon, adjudicated rapist, and probable pedophile that instigated a violent insurrection to overthrow our government, spends every day of his life attempting to weaken our nation by sowing hatred between its citizens, and works for a political party that destroys social programs and sends masked agents into American’s neighorhoods to shoot them in the fucking face.
Your comparison is still shit because both candidates and both parties are nowhere near the same. Your simple mind is trying to simplify something that isn’t that simple. Both candidates didn’t even have the same stance on the genocide. One was/is much, much more approving of it.
One of them started it - do you remember that? If anything Bidden / Harris would have been more committed to it - it was ideological for them - Trump just doesn’t care - he’s as likely to get annoyed with Bibi and change sides because he gets distracted.
I agree, but now it’s two years later, and that same attitude with get similar results. The democrats need to do way better than just “not as bad as trump”.
Harris also received 48% of the popular vote. She didn’t win, but that kind of turnout doesn’t make a candidate a bad candidate. There just happens to be a lot of Americans that think a felon rapist pedophile with one failed presidency under his belt was a better option.
Harris was far from the ideal candidate, but she would have been far and away better than Trump.
I agree and was furious with those who kept that stance. I respected them still.
We would be better today but the progressives and DemSocs could be the change our country has been truly needing. If Harris won it wouldn’t be as bad now but it would all be very much status quo since the 80s.
We have an opportunity because of the bullshit we’re dealing with.
i am all for forward thinking. starving the DNC until they give up is the only step forward that i see. giving what the dnc wants gives us what we always get from them, republican policies. i dont think hitting rock bottom will change the opinions of the dnc doners, but the voter? i can only hope.
fuck vote blue no matter who, vote blue only if they represent your interests, else tell them to fuck off.
Wraith it’s so fucking complex, simple taglines will not do.
Here’s my stance; if primaries are over support the lesser of two evils. Yes the whole system is corrupt and the DNC is a slave to corporations, beholden to them before the people they represent. This was proven by not supporting Bernie. Fuck them.
Fuck the Greedy. Old. Pedophiles. even more. They’re pure fucking evil, never forgive or forget what they’ve done.
i voted blue no matter who for harris, i am not doing it again.
you still advocate voting blue not matter who and you also note that doing so gives the dnc the power to push rightward and attack their own progressives. at this point i believe starving the dnc out is the only path forward, as painful as it will be in the short term.
People like that helped get Trump elected. Harris was far from the ideal candidate, but she would have been far and away better than Trump.
You win with the electorate you have, not the one you want.
People are idiots. Expect this.
If it’s this easy to win them back and the Democrats couldn’t even bother, who’s the real idiot? They thought they could discard these votes and found out they couldn’t. Figure out how to continue treating them like people with understandable sorrow about the genocide in Gaza, or keep losing 🤷♂️
Everyone is an idiot. The Dems, the voters, the pollsters, the Republicans, everyone. Me included.
True.
But there’s more than one perspective. Do you, as a political party or government as a whole, abandon an ally you have all sorts of ties with because a sub-section of your voters don’t like that country anymore? I mean the answer is yes if you know you’ll lose enough voters to lose elections, but there’s no way they could have known that.
The proper method is to start drawing lines with the ally and see if they cross them. Biden essentially did that. Maybe not as aggressive as necessary. He did verbally state he was against what Israel was doing. He did float arms shipment cancellations to Israel. He did try to broker a peace deal. These were reasonable steps. What was unreasonable was a ton of voters expecting a full disconnection from Israel or they would not vote or vote 3rd party, which would only help a much, much worse president from taking control and giving Israel/Netanyahu two big thumbs up to do whatever they wanted.
People could also show up to primaries. People could have been showing up for the past several decades.
This is not a situation that has just spontaneously happened, this has been happening since voting has been a thing.
The reasons those democrats have the power they do is because we keep letting them.
What primary?
The DNC made sure that the primary in 2024 was a joke. Even here so many people were like “how are you go against Biden! He’s the only one!”
Only, I could list off dozens of reasons why he fucked up and wouldn’t have won. (Failed to get a Trump conviction is a big one, for example.)
The whole reason he bowed out was because his campaign was clogging the shitcan, and Kamala sidelined the best thing that happened to her campaign, and proceeded to toe the corporate line saying she wouldn’t have changed anything.
(Easy dodge: “with the benefit of hindsight, of course there are things I’d change. But as I’m currently VP, I need to support my president, so please ask the next question.”)
And then there’s the whole genocide thing, and yeah. We all have lines we can’t cross.
Every state and local primary? Every congressional primary?
You know there’s an election more than once wvery four years, right? And those other elections tend to have a much greater impact on individuals than any national election.
But sure, the president is literally the only election that ever matters. And while you didnt cross that line, plenty of other people who did show up were more than happy to. Only they chose the much worse options.
You understand that the DNC threatened all of the well known candidates? And look what happened to the one guy who did- dean Phillips is no longer a credible politician.
So yes. Every state. Now stop being obtuse.
Yeah, it’s because of the Democrats’s corpo faction
They are ones who write sternly worded letters and do nothing to stop trump
Didn’t the DNC send Bill Clinton to Michigan and when confronted about the lackluster response of the DNC against the genocide, he started telling the attendees that it’s Israel’s right to the whole thing and they were there first? To a room full of Arab Americans?
https://truthout.org/articles/bill-clinton-sparks-outrage-for-racist-comments-on-gaza-at-harris-rally/
From an outsider looking in,
Trump may have been necessary to get America on the right track. Had they voted Kamala in, things wouldn’t change. She even said that on the campaign trail.
If you boil it down to the barest of reasons, Trump was voted in because people wanted change. He’s a liar, a scumbag, and a rapist, and as much as you and I think the other side is dumb as fuck for voting him in, both sides realize that change is needed.
Now that Trump has been allowed to fuck things up so bad it seems that Americans are actually learning how their political system works and doing what they should have been doing all along. (Mainly voting in primaries, from my POV.)
I hope the upcoming elections reel him in (Preferably all the way to jail) and you guys can actually get people working to improve the country. Keep it up, Americans.
He was also already president from 2017-2021. Apparently everyone just forgot what a fucking disaster he was back then.
Yeah.
Imagine eating bad meat, getting sick and shitting yourself almost to death. Then eating more of that bad meat once you feel better.
I don’t have a lot of faith in Americans anymore.
Swap out lettuce for meat and that’s basically where we are right now. No imagination necessary.
Well, from this outsider’s point of view, it seems to me that Trump is a symptom of Americas’ malaise and I’m not all that sure that even his fuckups will change the trend in America of becoming ever more sick.
It looks to me that the ONLY possibly path of improvement is if these recently elected social democrats manage somehow to navigate the obstacle course set-up by the DNC, and do so propelled only by the support of voters and campaign support from common people whilst avoiding falling to the temptation of selling themselves or “compromising” for political progression.
Looking back at the Hilary vs Bernie Primary, the DNC has a ton of anti-democratic tools (such as super-voters) to make it far harder for social democrats to get elected to important positions as Democrats than it is for “traditional” Democrats.
Certainly to me so far the path for any of the handful of social democrats rising in the Democrat Party, to end up as POTUS, seems to be either non-existent or a near-impossible obstacle course (with the actual DNC being the ones making it that hard followed by the billionaire-owned Press, with the actual competence of Republicans as politicians a far 3rd)
You have a lot more faith in Americans than I do.
Source: I’m American. There are a lot of very, very dumb people here.
exactly fuck people for voting again.
I voted kamala, but I am not ignorant enough to blame non voters for this mess we’re in. I punch up, preferably not sideways and never down.
Those that realize their mistake are one thing, but those who would continue to throw transgender Americans, undocumented immigrants, and aid to Ukraine under the bus purely due to a Democrat not being progressive enough on Gaza when the alternative is actively harmful to Gaza are part of the problem.
I just can’t imagine looking a Palestinian American in the eyes and telling them it’s their fault we have trump. That they should have voted for someone that was actively endangering /killing their families. It’s wild to me that we’re still blaming the victims rather than the person who supported a genocide. Still supports a genocide. Idk dude, I voted for her but I can totally empathize with certain people who were just not able to do it. I don’t blame them. If you’re gonna have a line ‘genocide literally against my family’ is a pretty fucking reasonable one. No, this is on Democrats, full stop.
I suspect it’s only those who have weak or no principles who don’t understand how other people might have principles in some domain which are so strong and so morally defining that they simply can’t bring themselves to vote for anybody breaking those principles.
It’s one thing to logically disagree with the lack of pragmatism of somebody not being able to vote for somebody supporting child mass murder abroad even to stop somebody who, whilst also supporting child mass murder abroad also supported a few more bad things.
It’s a whole different thing to blame somebody for not voting for anybody supporting child mass murder.
Unlike what some seem to think, voting for somebody who supports child mass murder abroad because they’re not as bad on things which affect you more closely (i.e. national policy) as the other candidate who also supports child mass murder abroad, isn’t a Moral High Ground from were to talk down to people who on moral grounds refuse to vote for anybody who would support child mass murder.
(Also and this being Politics, it seems to me that the competent candidate who trully means to represent their voters would move towards what voters want - especially on subjects that many voters would see as symptomatic of the candidate’s general character, such as child mass murder support - rather than expect voters to move towards the candidate’s views)
But what if by not voting or voting for someone who literally cannot win you are helping someone who makes it clear they will violate the principles you hold dear even more flagrantly? Because that’s what happened.
One or the other WILL win. So do you help as much as you can or do you sit in a corner and cry?
I honestly don’t feel bad about blaming the people that chose to sit in a corner and cry. Especially because their decision to do so affected a whole lot more than genocide on the other side of the planet.
For me it isn’t a moral high ground. It’s making the decision that is BEST for my country AND the people in Gaza and wondering why the people who chose to cry in a corner couldn’t do the same.
Geopolitics isn’t some simple thing. Should a candidate run on abandoning an ally when a subset of their voters don’t like that country anymore? Especially if they aren’t sure that those voters represent enough of the total to cost them the election? And when a lot of their voters still do want to be allies with that country?
Turns out a lot of people can’t see the forest for the trees.
Except that’s selective bullshit.
We don’t really know if the other candidate who also very openly proclaimed her “unwavering support” for Israel would cause Israel to act differently in any way form or shape - you’re just assuming a “rosy outcome” had things been different based on at best wishful thinking, possibly even just tribalist loyalty (you think your tribe’s leader is better and thus assume she would do things better, even in the face of her very openly supporting Israel just as much as the other candidate which indicates that on this subject such thing cannot be assumed).
Further, parties will put forwards on subsequent elections different candidates if the ones they put forward in previous elections got trashed by voters. This means that refusing to vote actually influences which choices will be available in the next cycle of this Ultimatum Game. I have actually seen this happen in Europe (and in fact in America too: the Republicans changed from conservatives to populist Fascists exactly by following the electorate which turns out to have quite a high percentage or Racists)
Turns out a lot of people when it comes to politics can’t (or maybe refuse) to logically analyze things beyond the superficial 1st order effects.
Palestinian Americans should have known Trump/Republicans were the worst case scenario for their friends and family in Gaza. It wasn’t exactly a secret.
So you expect a political party, or government as a whole, to fully break ties with an allied nation because a subset of their voters don’t like that country anymore?
Geopolitics isn’t exactly simple.
No I voted for her. But if you’re telling people to vote for genocide you’re probably the problem, not them. If both candidates are saying they’re gonna kill your family you’re probably not going to take a day off work to vote for one of them. Maybe don’t put voters in that position if you want to win elections.
what does that solve other than satisfying your own desire to be morally superior? what has materially improved in the world?
The point is ensuring that those same voters don’t repeat their mistake and indirectly aid in the election of Vance or Rubio, something that would cement the legacy of Project 2025.
Harris would have been far better than Trump is a bit line saying “Joe, the car thief, is better than Mike, the serial mass murderer”
If Harris had won, the Democratic party would have kept in it’s corrupt, corporate minion state.
A silver lining in the Trump disaster is that the Demicrat establishment is being shaken.
EDIT: I was going to correct “Demicrat”, but considering that “demi” means half, I’m going to keep it that way.
Except not at all.
One was a successful prosecutor that brought justice to a lot of shitty people/organizations and was a candidate for a political party that creates/supports social programs.
The other was a convicted felon, adjudicated rapist, and probable pedophile that instigated a violent insurrection to overthrow our government, spends every day of his life attempting to weaken our nation by sowing hatred between its citizens, and works for a political party that destroys social programs and sends masked agents into American’s neighorhoods to shoot them in the fucking face.
You need to work on your comparisons.
Both were pro-genocide.
Cool story.
Your comparison is still shit because both candidates and both parties are nowhere near the same. Your simple mind is trying to simplify something that isn’t that simple. Both candidates didn’t even have the same stance on the genocide. One was/is much, much more approving of it.
One of them started it - do you remember that? If anything Bidden / Harris would have been more committed to it - it was ideological for them - Trump just doesn’t care - he’s as likely to get annoyed with Bibi and change sides because he gets distracted.
Joe the car thief is leagues better than Mike the serial mass murderer though
That’s the point.
I agree, but now it’s two years later, and that same attitude with get similar results. The democrats need to do way better than just “not as bad as trump”.
Turns out Harris is a bad candidate
And Americans are stupid.
Both these things can be true at the same time.
Harris also received 48% of the popular vote. She didn’t win, but that kind of turnout doesn’t make a candidate a bad candidate. There just happens to be a lot of Americans that think a felon rapist pedophile with one failed presidency under his belt was a better option.
Yeah, this unfortunately
We’ll see how this all pans out.
I agree and was furious with those who kept that stance. I respected them still.
We would be better today but the progressives and DemSocs could be the change our country has been truly needing. If Harris won it wouldn’t be as bad now but it would all be very much status quo since the 80s.
We have an opportunity because of the bullshit we’re dealing with.
We shall see.
i would argue harris would stand by the status quo left by trump, because that’s what biden did.
There would be no argument from me, that was my point. Unsure if I was clear on the intent of my reply.
If we survive this fascist coup, what we’re going through may be a blessing. If Harris would have won things would not change.
We need to hit bottom, burn it down to rebuild with clearer vision of an equitable society.
INRI; all things are renewed with fire
i am all for forward thinking. starving the DNC until they give up is the only step forward that i see. giving what the dnc wants gives us what we always get from them, republican policies. i dont think hitting rock bottom will change the opinions of the dnc doners, but the voter? i can only hope.
fuck vote blue no matter who, vote blue only if they represent your interests, else tell them to fuck off.
Wraith it’s so fucking complex, simple taglines will not do.
Here’s my stance; if primaries are over support the lesser of two evils. Yes the whole system is corrupt and the DNC is a slave to corporations, beholden to them before the people they represent. This was proven by not supporting Bernie. Fuck them.
Fuck the Greedy. Old. Pedophiles. even more. They’re pure fucking evil, never forgive or forget what they’ve done.
So if it’s Red or Blue, then always Blue.
i voted blue no matter who for harris, i am not doing it again.
you still advocate voting blue not matter who and you also note that doing so gives the dnc the power to push rightward and attack their own progressives. at this point i believe starving the dnc out is the only path forward, as painful as it will be in the short term.
What’s your point?
They need a snickers
Yea these people are fuckin idiots lol