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for ukraine supporters and soon to be moldovian supporters
I dunno, mate. Maybe I’m an idiot, but when Putin goes on TV and says a bunch of overtly nazi shit like how LGBT rights is pure satanism, I just can’t help believe that maybe I shouldn’t be on their side.
What about when Ukrainian is are using overt Nazi symbols?
I want to outline what just happened here.
Someone posted a meme making fun of people saying two things can be bad, implying one side (Russia) isn’t really bad. Someone replies that the overt nazi stuff putin says is pretty bad.
You reply with whatabout Ukraine nazis.
Either you are agreeing with the point that two things can be bad at the same time, or saying that one side doing nazi stuff is fine, actually because the other side does as well. Which is it?
I want to outline what just happened here.
I want to engage in aggressive strawmanning*
Is that the right fallacy? What’s the strawman?
You are saying we are excluding Putin. That is the straw man. Putin is a capitalist oligarch that should have never led Russia and he has come into power due to the reforms led by western interests and the illegal dissolution of the USSR which has caused untold suffering, in ways like you have leeches like Putin that say Nazi stuff.
Now, what you’re “outlining” is just false, anyone who can read English can see what’s going on in this thread. Ukrainian soldiers are openly using Neo-Nazi imagery on their official uniforms. A US backed pro-NATO president is taking photos with these Nazi symbols proudly (while claiming to be a Jewish convert which is a whole other can of worms).
Yes, Putin is using Nazi rhetoric, as is Trump, many other western and European leaders, Indian and Asian leaders, etc. but this does not change the fact that you can find pictures of Zelensky posing with his own countries soldiers wearing swastikas or swastika/SS adjacent symbols like wolfsangel, black sun, totenkopf, etc.
I gotta stop feeding trolls this shit sucks too much energy out of me
Thanks, uh, I’m not SkyezOpen. Sorry if I interrupted your conversation.
Putin is a capitalist oligarch that should have never led Russia
you can find pictures of Zelensky posing with his own countries soldiers wearing swastikas
So you’re saying that on OP’s infographic we should be supporting neither Ukraine or Russia? Or should we be slightly to the right on the Russia-Ukraine axis because it’s better to support a capitalist oligarch using Nazi rhetoric than not supporting anyone?
I want to outline what just happened here.
You did a whataboutism and then someone talked about the original subject and activated your idiot hypocrite trap card
I don’t doubt that the Ukrainian army is full nazis and fascists. I also don’t doubt that the Russian army is full of nazbols and fascists. Armies tend to attract those sorts.
I wouldn’t really know, but I would not imagine that Ukraine is a progressive country. Outside of the liberal enclaves of the bigger cities, I imagine it’s pretty bad actually. But here’s my surface level view.
Russia:
- has invaded a neighbouring sovereign country,
- puts people in prison for being openly gay,
- has banned legal and healthcare provision for trans people, and
- openly declares to the world stage that it is fighting a rearguard action against western degeneracy in favour of Christian family values. (Admittedly I do not speak Russian and I can’t speak to what is translated as degeneracy or satanism or what-have-you, but no one has credibly disputed that this is the essence of what Russian ministers are saying on camera.)
Ukraine:
- has not invaded any of its neighbours recently,
- has, on paper at least, legal protections for LGBT people, and
- is still signed up to the European Convention of Human Rights.
Regardless of the specific iconography that the less pleasant members of its citizenry choose to display their chuddery, one of the countries is prima facie more nazi than the other in its behaviour at this moment in time. And it’s going to take a lot more than “hurr durr imperialist propaganda” to convince me that it’s Ukraine, given those bare facts.
Ukraine:
Has been engaged in ethnic cleansing since 2014
A pretty big one to leave out
they’re “pro”-LGBT tho 🥴
Pride parade in Kiev in 2022 lasted 10 minutes, organisators dispersed them because crowd of neonazis gathered and it started to look really dangerous. In 2023 it was cancelled afaik, in 2024 there was 500 participants and way more cops, and in 2025 there was around 1500 participants including soldiers and support from other countries (with unknown numbers for both) and there was so many cops they formed multiple ranks around.
it only took them 3 years to get in line with the propaganda lol
I suppose you’re going to tell me that every allegation that Ukraine is ethnically cleansing Russians is true, and every allegation than Russia is ethnically cleansing Ukrainians (and Georgians, for that matter) is a lie?
So much for “I just can’t help believe that maybe I shouldn’t be on their side” when it comes to Nazis…
Pretty sure I just pointed out which one was less nazi. I think I was pretty clear about the fact that I definitely wouldn’t consider either one of them my friends.
So you’re not on Ukrainians side either?
They’re not invading Russia other than a small little portion a few years after the war started.
Those Nazi battalions would be far less defensible if Russia didn’t pose a credible military threat to Ukraine.
Yes we all know history started in 2022
Yes, we all know history ended in 1991
I was very clearly (I felt) referencing the context from 1990-2022 that you had left out of your caping for and downplaying of the Nazis in Ukraine.
I would say that Nazis are always indefensible.
You consider Nazi battalions defensible?
Look at it this way: Russia, fighting against an army of actual seig heiling swastika-wearers hellbent on ethnic cleansing, is the lesser evil here.
You vaguely leftist folks like supporting the lesser evil, right?
Me: Supports Palestinians, absolutely yes.
Supports Russia? I feel like I understand their geopolitical situation more than the average MSNBC viewer and appreciate their massive restraint they’ve conducted themselves with from committing war crimes while achieving their military goals (largely self defense from NATO encroachment). I’d prefer the war ends with Russia maintaining control over Donbas and Crimea without too much retribution against the Ukrainian people since they are largely the victims of the Nazi regime the US installed… Oh yeah, and the denazification of Ukraine with a neutral government and the removal of black rock would be nice… I wouldn’t define that as supporting Russia but it certainly puts me a little on the right of the Y axis line I suppose.
Yeah, I think we’re all about the same there
I would say that the left bottom also understands geopolitics, they’re just reactionary rats tho.
Also the top left barely exists. They have no idea that the US couped Ukraine’s government in 2014, and since then started killing thousands of people in the Donbass, and pushing NATO expansion eastward. There was no peep from the anti-war ppl then about stopping the killings. The rhetoric from them has been dehumanizing slavic peoples, and against any negotiations with Russia to end the war.
The US has demonstrated that it will fight this war down to the last Ukrainian, and are the “anti-war” are mostly proud as long as its not western european or US blood being shed for NATO expansion.
For me the world policy is this
Libertarian Socialist here… commie curious yet I am the top right booyah turds. Upvote for me.
If you want to check out Marxist-Leninist theory, I wrote a basic study guide you can check out.
Politics is a poison and this sole comment section proves it Fights will always happen, smh.
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I don’t see how the top left has a moral compass when Ukraine is one of Israel’s strongest allies, and the two cooperate millitarily. Further, it requires one to believe the victims in Donetsk and Luhansk that were being ethnically cleansed by the post-2014 Banderite regime have no right to self-determination. Also not sure what makes the top right “accelerationist” or “revolutionary defeatist.”
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The Banderites in Kiev have killed thousands of people in Donetsk and Luhansk over the years, and were amassing a force to “finish off the separatists” before Russia got involved directly. The Minsk agreements were both tanked by the west and Ukraine, and could have avoided this war altogether. The movements in Donetsk and Luhansk are not far-right, they are a response to the far-right government that coup’d the president they supported:
Again, you have to believe that the people in the Donbass should quietly accept being ethnically cleansed by Banderites put in charge by the west, and that this is necessary despite the fact that Ukraine and Israel are close allies that aid each other millitarily. Call this “campist” if you want, but materially supporting Ukraine materially supports Israel and thus indirectly accelerates their genocidal settler-colonialism.
The moral compass:
How does this make sense in response to a meme showing that I support Palestine? I know y’all love to use rule 1 to censor people for “bigotry” but at least put some effort into making it plausible.
Tucker Carlson, and other Christo fascists, also support Palestine because they hate Jews so much… So plausible that you’re one of them considering the views you espouse
Banned for simple disagreement
Everybody who has ever uttered these words was in actuality banned for being a terminal dorkass
I personally embrace this framing.
At least until the fall of the US empire, 2nd camp has been on the right side of history almost every single time and especially lately
Dang, i thought the slrpnk instance was cool with communists. Guess they’re as zionazi libs as world is haha!
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so they blame it all on external imperialist aggression from capitalist nations rather than reflect on why those projects failed.
Unbelievable… we have more than enough proof of imperalist aggression being the reason why socialist states “fail”. I mean for fucks sake Cuba is constantly under threat and is actively being sanctioned. They fucking kidnapped the damn democratically elected president in Venezuela for fucks sake!!! Or how about the coup in Chile?
And your point on China as well as your problem with hierarchy has me believe you’re an idealistic anarchist. I recommend reading https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Essay:Why_China_is_not_Capitalist concerning China being “capitalist”.
No no, we may have tried to kill every single socialist project from infancy onward but what those commies need more than peace is some good old fashioned Personal Responsibility
I’m not saying that imperialist aggression didn’t / doesn’t contribute to the collapse of socialist states - it most certainly does - I’m saying campists tend to get tunnel vision and think that it’s the only reason they fail. Cuba has actually been quite successful at enduring in spite of imperialist aggression, and I think there’s a lot of benefit in asking what it is they are doing better than past socialist states. In my opinion the answer lies in the fact that their governmental structure is far more horizontal in comparison to other attempts at socialism such as the USSR, and that has resulted in policy that is far more responsive to the specific material needs of local communities within Cuba. Contrast the USSR in which the pseudoscientific beliefs of a central authority figure turned what could have been a brief and localized food shortage into a full-blown famine spanning the entire union.
With regard to China being state capitalist, I skimmed the essay you linked well enough to see that it does not address the anarchist critique of state “socialism,” namely that state ownership does not truly constitute collective ownership because the state is a hierarchical institution that centralizes decision-making power in such a way that the will of the people affected is often ignored. Don’t get me wrong, I acknowledge the undeniable successes and advantages of central planning when compared to the neoliberal method of not planning at all beyond the fiscal quarter, but those are not the only options. I believe that horizontal planning is superior to both, and is the only way for an economy to be truly socialist in character. Examples of this being done can even be found in the revolutions that created the USSR and the PRC before they seized state power. It’s also not a discrete binary; there is a spectrum between totalitarian dictatorship and full horizontalism, and the projects which are most successful tend to veer towards the latter rather than the former.
The USSR started to trend downwards as a result of sabotage with liberalization and reforms. It was then fully dissolved illegally and was catastrophic to all (now former)soviet states. Then NATO/US bombed the fuck out of Yugoslavia and now we have a huge fascism problem.
Contrast the USSR in which the pseudoscientific beliefs of a central authority figure turned what could have been a brief and localized food shortage into a full-blown famine spanning the entire union.
You are seriously not talking about Holodomor are you? The USSR did its best to help after Kulaks, who were against collectivization, sabotaged their farms and killed their livestocks. And that famine is always used by fascists as a point against communism.
skimmed the essay you linked well enough to see that it does not address the anarchist critique of state “socialism,”
So you did not read it, typical of an anarkiddie… Your aversion to authority is also what makes it really easy for counter-revolutionaries to completely screw over revolutions. Socialism is the transition towards communism and you don’t just press the button to become instantly communist, not when classes exist.
totalitarian dictatorship
Yep, the classic of folding both communism and fascism into one fold to depict both as equally horrible. This is just doing the work for the ruling class for free.
really cool “giving an award to myself” infograph
sorry if we’re correct.
Do you post this comment on every PizzaCake comic?
I also don’t even agree, it’s an explanatory tool for helping explain the difference between the top left and the top right quadrants, spurring the exact discussion we see in this thread
