Is there any reason the water can’t be safely consumed later? It’s not toxic or nuclear is it? The cooling water didn’t just up and disappear did it?

Edit: Links provided in the comments…

Notable comments:

Edit addendum: I’d like to thank everyone that’s participated in this question thread, sorry if I missed any good relevant links in the comments.

To be clear, I still loathe the whole AI datacenter era, it really is heavily wasteful of resources, notably energy, but I wanted to better understand the water usage situation.

  • WxFisch@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    It evaporates, that’s how it cools. The water is sprayed over a heat exchanger and gets turned to essentially steam and then new water is pumped in and thus the water is “gone”. It will fall as rain somewhere but likely not near where it was taken from.

    A closed loop system could be used but they are more expensive and require more maintenance so large data centers don’t usually use them unless required to.

    • over_clox@lemmy.worldOP
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      8 days ago

      I am still learning. Thank you for your educational comment.

      I loathe AI anyways, I just wanna better understand why I loathe AI…

      • WxFisch@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        This is comparing apples and oranges though. Automotive cooling systems are designed for a very different problem set than datacenter cooling systems. The temperature gradients are much larger in ICE systems, they need to be small, light, and portable, and they cool something that generates much more variable heat loads.

        A data center creates a consistent heat load, is stationary, with access to a source of water that is functionally limitless to the operators, cools a much smaller gradient and needs to do so in the most economical way possible to be as profitable as it can be to the owners. Evaporative coolers are dead simple, very effective, and scale very easily which is why they are used.

      • BussyCat@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        Car cooling systems are stupidly expensive, run at temps that would damage computer CPUs, run outside, and have a really nice advantage over computers which is that at higher heat loads they also tend to go faster thus cooling them off faster.

        Now imagine you redlined a dozen cars for days on end in a garage in the middle of the summer do you think you might damage some components?

        It is still very possible to use closed loop cooling on data centers but any system you build needs to be able to work in summer temps which can be as high as 35-40C and needs to do that without letting the computers exceed 60C. An air cooled system to handle that much heat is going to be very expensive and use a ton of power (and power generation also uses water)

        • over_clox@lemmy.worldOP
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          7 days ago

          While you’re effectively right in your comparison, you also must understand the difference between electronic data center cooling vs vehicle engine cooling.

          Vehicle engines run best at a higher temperature range than electronics, so they install a thermostat, to literally bring the engine temperature up to a suitable range for ideal performance. But the thermostat is not necessary (unless you live near cold polar regions and want heat).

          The thermostat can be safely removed from vehicles in more comfortable climates and the vehicle will run just fine, but just quite a bit cooler.

          So, take the concept of a closed loop cooling system, remove the thermostat from the equation, and you got a more viable closed loop system more suitable to keep electronics cool.

          • BussyCat@lemmy.world
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            6 days ago

            If you remove the thermostat and redline it in a garage it still won’t be able to keep up because it doesn’t have the airflow that’s required

            The concept of closed loop cooling for servers has always existed and it works for home computers. What is conventionally called closed loop cooling just means that you transfer heat from the computer to a liquid and then from the liquid to air. Transferring 100MW of heat to the air is what makes this difficulty especially in a stationary computer.

        • Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          Some aircraft engines, too. The old single-engine Cessnas I trained on were air-cooled. Though that’s pretty easy when you’re pushing cool, atmospheric air over the engine at 100 knots.

  • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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    7 days ago

    Other commenters correctly describe the cost analysis for using evaporative cooling, but I’ll add one more reason why it’s the preferred method when water is available: evaporating water can dissipate truly outlandish amounts of heat with very few moving parts.

    Harkening back to high school physics class, water – like all other substances – has a certain thermal capacity, meaning the energy needed to increase the temperature of 1 kg of water by 1 degree C. The specific thermal capacity of water is already quite high, at 4184 J/(kg*C), besting all the common metals and only losing to lithium, hydrogen, and ammonia. In nature, this means that large bodies of water are natural moderators of temperature, because water can absorb an entire day’s worth of sunlight energy but not substantially change the water temperature.

    But where water really trounces the competition is its “heat of vaporization”. This is the extra energy needed for liquid water to become vapor; simply bringing water to 100 C is not sufficient to make it airborne. Water has a value of 2146 kJ/kg. Simplifying to where 1 kg of water is 1 liter of water, we can convert this unit into something more familiar: 0.596 kWh/L.

    What these two physical properties of water tell us is that if our city water comes out of the pipe at 20 C, then to get it to 100 C to boil, we need the difference (80) times the thermal capacity (4184 J/kg*C), which is 334,720 J/kg . Using the same simplification from earlier, that comes out to be 0.093 kWh/L. And then to actual make the boiling liquid become a vapor (so that it’ll float away), we then need 0.596 kWh/L on top of that.

    Let that sink in for a moment: the energy to turn water into vapor (0.596 kWh/L) is six times higher than the energy (0.093 kWh/L) to raise liquid water from 20 C to 100 C. That’s truly incredible, for a non-toxic, life-compatible substance that we can (but should we?) safely dump into the environment. If you total the two values, one liter of water can dissipate 0.69 kWh of energy per liter. Nice!

    In the context of a 100 megawatt data center (which apparently is what the industry considers as the smallest “hyperscale data center”), if that facility used only evaporative cooling, the water requirement would be 144,927 L/hour. That is an Olympic-size swimming pool every 6.9 seconds hours. Not nice!

    And AI datacenters are only getting larger, with some reaching into the low single-digits of gigawatts. But what is the alternative to cooling the more-modest data center from earlier? The reality is that the universe only provides for three forms of heat transfer: conduction, convection, and radiation. The heat from data centers cannot be concentrated into a laser and radiated into space, and we don’t have some sort of underground granite mountain that the data centers can conduct their heat into. Convection is precisely the idea of storing the heat into a substance (eg water, air) and then jettisoning the substance.

    So if we don’t want to use water, then we have to use air. But for the two qualities of water that make it an excellent substance for evaporative cooling, air doesn’t come close – 1003 J/(kg*C) and no heat of vaporization, because air is already gaseous. That means we need to move ungodly amounts of air to dissipate 100 megawatts. But humanity has already invented the means to do this, by a clever structure that naturally encourages air to flow through it.

    The only caveat is that the clever structure is a cooling tower, and is characteristic of nuclear power stations. It’s also used for non-nuclear power station cooling, but it’s most famous in the nuclear context, where generators are well into the gigawatt range. Should AI datacenters use nuclear-sized air cooling towers instead of water evaporation? It would work, but even as someone that’s not anti-nuclear, the optics of raising a cooling tower in rural America just to cool a datacenter would be untenable. And that’s probably why no AI datacenter has done that.

    To be abundantly clear, I’d rather not have AI datacenters at all. But since the question was why water consumption is such a big deal, it might be best to say that it’s a physics problem: there isn’t any other readily-available way to provide cooling for 100+ megawatts, without building a 100+ meter tower. Water is always going to be cheaper and more on-hand than concrete.

        • morbidcactus@lemmy.ca
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          7 days ago

          And even for fresh water, you have biofouling to worry about and what to do with the water after you’ve used it, can’t just dump it into the environment untreated.

          • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.club
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            7 days ago

            There are already heat exchanging systems that do this with brackish water already; you don’t need to treat water if all you ate doing to the water is making the water hotter or colder.

              • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.club
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                7 days ago

                I agree that pumping in water at a different temperature can affect the environment. It is just that a lot of people tend to conflate the effluent coming from plants like this as something which needs chemical or other treatment when the issue is thermal only.

      • BussyCat@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        People mentioned corrosion which is true of all sea water systems but in evaporative systems you also have the addition of salt forming on all the evaporative surfaces which can drastically increase corrosion more than normal seawater and cause fouling

        So to do this properly you would want an RO system making freshwater before the cooler which at that point it would make more sense to just have a separate company doing desalination.

  • reksas@sopuli.xyz
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    7 days ago

    we already have heating plants that transfer heat to homes via water, couldnt they just do that instead of wasting all the drinking water?

    • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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      7 days ago

      I think you’re describing district heating, which works great in places that planned ahead and buried the necessary plumbing so that the waste heat from nearby industrial processes can be beneficially used to heat nearby homes and offices.

      The detail, however, is that those industrial processes are diverting the heat to the district plumbing, but if nobody needs heating (eg 40 C summer weather), then they will vent the heat using air cooling to the atmosphere. That is to say, the demand for heating will vary at times, and this is fine because the industrial process can just go back to dumping the heat into the air.

      This doesn’t work for AI data centers because the amount of “waste” heat (eg 100+ megawatts) is well in excess of any nearby demand for heating. To quantify demand, I looked to the district heating system of Ulaanbaatar, the capital city of Mongolia, home to 1.67 million people, and the coldest capital city in the world by average annual temperature:

      the Ulaanbaatar District Heating Company, encompassing 13,500 buildings with a total connected capacity of 3924 MW

      The system serves 60% of the population, so about 1 million people. Where in the mostly-temperate USA could a 4 gigawatt AI data center be located so that it’s right next to 1 million people that need 24/7 heating as though they lived in Mongolia?

      Scaling down to a 100 megawatt data center, the demand would be for a population of 25,000 living in essentially arctic conditions. Such places already have district heating, such as in Alaska. So if a smaller AI data center shows up, it just means the existing non-AJ heat source would fall back to dumping heat into the air.

      In the end, there are very few places that need heating all year round, but AI datacenters would be producing heat all year round. Even if the heat were used for something outlandish, like heating every square meter of public roadway, that still might not be enough demand to quench these behemoth AI datacenters. And that’s before the cost of building out the district heating system.

      We should definitely build district heating systems where they make sense, but building them so AI data centers can exist would be doing the right thing for the most terrible of reasons

    • Tiral@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      I think it would be a huge infrastructure project. But yeah, makes way more sense logically. Although knowing these AI dip shits they’d probably charge you a ton even though you’re basically using their “waste”. Almost like “I know what I got” Facebook marketplace post.

  • JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    The other question is: why do they have to use potable water, as opoosed to, for example, filtered river water?

  • RamRabbit@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    The water gets used over and over and over in the data center. It’s in a loop. The reporting that data centers consume vast quantities of water completely misunderstand the core concept of a water loop.

    That said, most data centers use the water for evaporative cooling. In that case, it comes back down as rain. But again, even in that case the reporting is still very overblown.

    • over_clox@lemmy.worldOP
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      8 days ago

      So, similar to a vehicle radiator, just larger scale?

      Well, if that’s the case, yeah antifreeze isn’t good for anyone, but still a proper closed loop cooling system isn’t exactly wasting water is it?

      • RamRabbit@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        From the video (timestamped):

        Even under the maximlist goals of AI companies, the projected increase of water use is small compared to what cities and industries already use.

        He even mentions how US corn uses 80x more water than worldwide AI use; with 40% of that corn burned as ethanol. And that power usage is the much larger concern.

        • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Corn ethanol being stupid doesn’t make AI less stupid.

          There’s plenty of stupidity out there. That logic would make everything useless.

          By that logic, no one outside the US would care about voting, since they already reached peak stupidity, so voting for a better president in Argentina will not get rid of trump.

          • Bazoogle@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            It is useful if you’re trying to figure out what to focus on. In this case, the concern is wasteful water usage. If you point to a larger area of wasteful water consumption, it would make more sense to target that first.

            • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              Except we are already focusing on AI data centers. By bringing up corn you’re just unfocusing. Which is the opposite of what you want.

              Yes, both are bad, and we should get rid of both. But both things can be done at the same time. You don’t need to steal the focus from another issue to try to redirect it.

              Instead of “why are we caring about data centers? Corn is worse!”. Try “while we are fighting data centers, we should also look at corn, they’re bad too”.

        • over_clox@lemmy.worldOP
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          8 days ago

          I made a point to update my post, not only with your link, but also with your timestamped link.

          This is why I’m here, to ask questions and seek answers…

          • RamRabbit@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            I appreciate it. <3

            Lots of other people are making solid points as well. Glad to see people engaging.

          • Bazoogle@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            That link shows Altman saying current datacenters use closed loop systems and make vague rhetorical questions. That’s not a source

    • Nurse_Robot@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      Welcome to Lemmy. “AI bad” downvoting will always happen at anything that symbolizes sympathy, even when you’re just providing an objective factual take. Thanks for your informative post.

      Edit: case in point