“Never argue with stupid people because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” George Carlin
Gish galloping is a well known argumentative technique to avoid scrutiny. It works so well, that now the US government is using a version of it to destroy the government at a rapid pace.
If the American Republic survives I suspect one long term change we’ll need is to introduce classes on political and rhetorical life to schools. Train people on how to have constructive discussions and how to recognize bad faith rhetorical tactics. We’re seeing now just how effectively bad faith tactics can undermine critical thought. This of course will have to be paired with teaching emotional intelligence.
If the goal of our education system is to produce good citizens of a republic and effective stewards of democracy, we need to be putting more time and effort into that. If my schools could fit religion classes in and still be a better education than public schools they can find the way to teach these things. Philosophy classes every year would probably have done me much better than religion classes.
In science there is an answer “you are not even wrong” which is a polite way of saying that wat you said makes so little sense, that it cannot even be disproven.
My version of that is “Well, you can’t argue with that.”
I see you have met my in-laws. This isn’t just some boomer humor, they have truly transcended their Fox News addicted roots and now get really angry about aliens, chemtrails, and all sorts of bullshit.
Same here man. Its insanity. It has to be the lead. People can’t be this stupid otherwise right
Ruts in thinking. Fox News has given them the tools to win any argument with little effort on their part… Any person attempting to provide a sound argument is flooded with BS and gives up… Which they consider a win.
I honestly have no idea, but I suppose it could be the lead. My own mother is bonkers and is starting to remind me of the crazy old mother from Requiem for a Dream.
Same.
So often it’s me typing out a big old comment. Realizing I can preempt some nuance to help the conversation. Thinking of a dozen more little nitpicks that might happen and realizing it’s just not worth it and it’s really the idiocy of the argument that’s making it so hard to explain myself.
You encountered Brandolini’s Law aka the Bullshit Asymmetry Principle: it takes an order of magnitude more effort to debunk bullshit than it takes to produce it.
Exactly that, one bullshit goes into circulation, it spreads everywhere strengthening its flawed position. And just like it was said, facts dont even matter at that point - requiring a novel approach to disprove it.
I met a guy in a sauna the other day who started preaching to me and saying that he doesn’t believe in science because it contradicts the bible story of creation.
I just had nothing to say to this man. His perception of reality is so far off base that I cannot comprehend his thought processes.
Maybe the temperature of the sauna was a little too high? /s
I went to a catholic school in my country. We got teach biology, evolution, genetics and we also got sexual education including abortion (the practice was illegal at the time). One of the first things that i remember from our teology classes was that “we shouldn’t take what is written in the bible in a literal sense and that it was written to a particular volk in a particular time by men”… and the example the Father used was specifically the Genesis, meaning “earth was not created in 6 days”.
I read stories of those lunatics, i mean, those who trully are in a crusade against reality. Are those more common over the equator or something?
did you ask him why he thinks that the bible is true?
“Because it is the word of god”
“Ok, and you know that because…?”
"The Bible says so.’
“And why do you think the Bible is true?”
Rinse and repeat
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This is what lead me to question my own faith: just someone asking honest questions with real curiosity
Keep it mind it can take years for those seeds to bloom from doubt to realisation
I was trying to relax in the sauna, so I didn’t want to get into it. Which is part of the problem with preaching like that!
It’s pointless, then they go on a tangent about how it’s the word of god etc. To them god is real and everything is about god and if they have to make leaps in logic it’s just because mere people can’t understand god’s will
That’s a classic one too
There are some people who have just been filled with so much wrong information over the course of their life that it’s impossible to reach them. Anything you say to them will have a keyword that puts their guard up, any fact you share would be fake news. It’s like their brains have been encrypted with the propaganda and hate. It’s pavlovian. I try to recognize it in myself and maintain an open mind but it’s hard.
Now imagine that they’re your parents.
It’s fucking awful.
I don’t have to
Its unethical to have a battle of wits against an unarmed opponent.
I used to work with people who would smoke whatever weed their friend gave them but wouldn’t get the covid vaccine because “you don’t know what’s in it”
Yes, I block them, after I make sure that they’re insistent on being disingenuous, and not merely misinformed.
Related: Pretty sure I’ve blocked most of the .world moderators/admins at this point.
I never block. I post a lot and blocking doesn’t stop them from seeing and commenting on my posts.
I don’t care what idiots think, I enjoy not having to see their thoughts.
If I’ve blocked someone and they’re commenting on something I’ve said… I don’t care what idiots think.
Yeah, I have a pretty low tolerance for the argumentative bullshit. That’s not why I’m here, and I often don’t give a shit if someone is wrong.
See I enjoy arguments, they can be productive and interesting, but I don’t enjoy arguments with people who are not honest with themselves, argue in bad faith, people who are either deliberately putting words in your mouth, or end up doing it because they are insistently ignorant.
online arguments never change minds, they only serve to galvanize each persons prior beliefs
False. I was deeply religious growing up but can remember the exact “debate” with an online athiest that planted the doubts and lead to my deconversion.
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disagree, I’ve changed my mind several times through online arguments. Not always a flip but often reality is not as binary as you think and opposition has some important points.
The majority of my currently held opinions on things have been shaped and influenced by over a decade of online forums discussion boards and conversations with strangers who hold different views as mine
I usually explain the phenomenon of the internet similar to that of the printing press. It makes the smart people smarter (easier access to information) and dumb people dumber (they can’t detect misinformation and manipulation thus will trend towards the worst possible outcomes). If you are a smart person without access to higher education YouTube and Wikipedia is the greatest invention of mankind; if you are a retard then YouTube leads you to binge watching Candace Owens
- This is not always true.
- There is a third person in this equation.
i don’t see it that way, my views have changed significantly because of the discussions i’ve had (mostly online)
I think this is mostly true IRL too
People will not show you that they’ve been convinced, but inside something may have shifted.
Probably true…
People will not show you that they’ve been convinced,
And this is a major fucking problem imo.
If people would just be ok with admitting they were wrong about things, the situation wouldn’t be nearly as dire
Keep in mind that they themselves probably don’t realize things have started shifting. They just have an inkling of doubt that they need space to nurture into something more.
I speak from experience, being wrong about something and not knowing it feels exactly the same as being right about something.
Most people read internet comments even if they never participate. Regardless of what they say they will be influenced by those comments. If you never have the argument your view will be represented and will die out.
You’re wrong and I am going to harass you until you change your mind to prove it!!
Oh, wait…
Thankfully the fediverse is still small enough that blocking people has a noticable effect. On reddit, for every person you block there’s 4 more to take their place.
It’s not worth the effort to break down their position, and present coherent arguments back to them. They’ll just completely miss what you’re trying to say, and blast back more incomprehensible BS. It’s just raw, blind, ignorant anger, most of the time, we can’t refute emotion with logic, they just don’t hear it.
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