- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
As Ireland’s $1,500-a-month basic income pilot program for creatives nears its end in February, officials have to answer a simple question: Is it worth it?
With four months to go, they say the answer is yes.
Earlier this month, Ireland’s government announced its 2026 budget, which includes “a successor to the pilot Basic Income Scheme for the Arts to begin next year” among its expenditures.
Ireland is just one of many places experimenting with guaranteed basic income programs, which provide recurring, unrestricted payments to people in a certain demographic. These programs differ from a universal basic income, which would provide payments for an entire population.
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For those, like me, that are curious how they decide who’s eligible…
Also:
Selection process
The department expects a high volume of applications and it will not be possible to provide funding to all eligible applicants.
Selection will be a non-competitive process. Once an applicant satisfies the eligibility criteria they will be included in an anonymised random sampling process to determine the pilot participants from the pool of eligible applicants for the BIA Pilot.
Funding for the scheme will allow for approximately 2,000 eligible applicants to participate in the pilot scheme.
A lot of gatekeepers in the comments who seem to love the idea of a UBI, but hate any attempt to test the viability of one.
I think this is a great step towards proving the benefits of a UBI for the greater population. I believe supporting the arts is always a positive endeavour, so using them as the pilot program kills two birds with one stone. I think that randomising who gets to enter the pilot program may allow some people to game the system, but the benefits outweigh the possibility of one schyster scamming a paycheque. The lottery system stops this becoming a bonus for established or famous artists, and supports creatives in all areas.
All in all, this is a good thing, and the people who want “all or nothing” are short sighted.
but hate any attempt to test the viability of one
How many more before people are convince it works? I think this is one of those studies or referendums where the powers-that-be and its supporters keep running the test until they get the one result they want. Besides, with the burgeoning automation, UBI is needed. If not, at least universal basic services could be done instead, where we are provided with housing and utilities for free, if the concern that over-accumulation of capital through free handouts might lead to abuse or crash the economy or some vague similar notions
There’s been lots of studies, it works.
You can’t just do a "study’ of UBI. Every single study attempt I’ve seen looks like: -They have funding from something or another, they do not model the taxation half at all -They end up means testing because they can’t model taxation, so they fixate on those in need exclusively. -They tend to last maybe a year or two. The beneficiaries know this is a limited term benefit and need to make the most of it. -They do not target everyone, so the local market won’t even notice the difference in base earning power. You still have lots of poor people excluded from the study. -They did not just force people into the program, participants had to actively seek out participation.
What the experiments have repeatedly proven is that welfare can work to give motivated poor people a needed reprieve to get their feet on solid ground, which we already knew. We haven’t had an actual “study” of real UBI, just studies on welfare that they say is about UBI. About the only difference from actual welfare programs is that the participants are not audited to try to make sure the benefit shuts off the second they get a job. Which may be a good indicator at least that auditing the benefits could stand to be more lax.
UBI might work, but to date we haven’t actually tried it in any useful way. We have universal income in some places, but it’s generally well short of even basic.
Social Security for seniors is UBI, that’s the biggest study you’ll every find. Also, Alaska gets dividends. I think you’re looking at it very narrowly for some reason.
Alaska is too small a payout. No one could have even basic needs meet there. It faiils the criteria for “basic”.
To receive social security, you can’t earn too much money. You generally have to choose either receive benefits or work. Also your payout depends on your specific pay in. You have to get paid during your younger years to “earn” your social security.
Alaska is too small a payout. No one could have even basic needs meet there. It faiils the criteria for “basic”.
True, but Social Security is big enough to live on.
To receive social security, you can’t earn too much money. You generally have to choose either receive benefits or work. Also your payout depends on your specific pay in. You have to get paid during your younger years to “earn” your social security.
Still based on taxes, they know how to make it work. It’s Basic Income regardless. I’m cool with that as a start.
Still based on taxes, they know how to make it work.
The basic logistics or the least of the open questions.
If every one gets 2k a month, how do prices react? Social security participants are only a subset of participants in the economy.
If everyone’s compensation is equal, guaranteed, and sufficient assuming prices didn’t just screw up, can you still get people doing work like sanitation? Social security is from a mindset that no productive prior is no longer required. It pays more to someone that made 100k a year than someone that made 50k a year, so your get proportional to what you put in.
I’ve been struggling for years, living in poverty since I was 18 despite having just about the best education you can have in my field. I’ve made desperate decisions and risky moves to keep a roof over my head all while being spat on by all sorts of people and weathering wave after wave of politically motivated anti-intellectualism and it’s 2AM and I’m exhausted from digging a fucking trench to install pipes for the shitty house in the middle of buttfuck nowhere that I’ve had to move to in order to be able to work from home…
And this piece of news made me cry a little. Even though I don’t live in Ireland.
Cause I know how it is to feel like there’s no way out and to watch how everyone consumes art daily like addicts all while saying artists don’t matter and we should be grateful for the “privilege” we have and yelling “get a real job” anytime you complain.
And that’s my piece. Bring on the logical arguments. I’ve laid out my feelings.
Also, UBI for everyone would be fucking amazing. Why we’re not doing that is beyond me. It’s like “they” think that without a “carrot on a stick” everyone will stop working. If I had a penny for everyone who practically can’t think straight because of how worried they are about basic needs I’d probably save those pennies for my own basic needs. Fear is not a good motivator for workers.
Fear is a good motivator for committing crime. But not for getting a job.
Why we’re not doing that is beyond me. It’s like “they” think that without a “carrot on a stick” everyone will stop working
The people who takes care of your sewage would likely also want to do something else fulfilling. But the difference is that they feel a sense of duty, the sense that those other lazy bastards that get to play music or do ‘nothing’ wont do it. Then they are left with the feeling of either doing something useful for others and get payed, or feeling useless and getting payed. Most people would rather feel useful in a practical sense.
Edit: spelling
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That attitude is why the wealthy will always insist on means testing to oppose progress…
The attitude we need is:
I hope as many people as possible get it now, and we’ll keep working on the rest.
Influencers suck, pretty much as a rule.
But everyone deserves to live. And them being UBI proponents and constantly talking about it because they’re genuinely happy they got it is a hell of a lot better than them taking cash from a billionaire to pit us against each other.
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but like i think i still would rather have artists + influencers ubi then none
Right…
But first you posted a comment about how pissed you were that another group were getting it and they shouldn’t.
Even if you know you meant “everyone should get it”…
You didn’t type that, you were manipulated instead into only saying a group you don’t like shouldn’t get it.
No one reading your initial comment was/is capable of reading your mind. You did what the wealthy wanted, and may have influenced those who just read your first comment.
You’re giving the right fucks. UBI for all.
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This should be the default for anybody in the world. From there on work if you want more. We are social, economical and technologically capable of doing it. Is the 1% the ones preventing it from happening.
0.00004% (billionaires over world population), but yeah. Somebody please tell me why we’re using technology to “make money” instead of progressing the human living standard
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France is a tax haven for millionaires why do you complain ?
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It is very swrious and it is a good reason to tax the rich. And they just decide they shouldn’t.
You fail to mention how fair the taxes and redistribution are, and they are ever more unfair every passing year.
that’s unfair. what classifies as “art”? am i an artist? I’m not sure.
i think a major point of the UBI scheme was the broad democratic support because everyone benefits from it. if only a specific group of people gets it, that’s just another way to split the society. not what we need.
that’s unfair.
Crabs in a Bucket
haha yeah :) but no, actually, i want them to have UBI, i just want everyone else to have it as well :) that’s a difference.
also by the way what i find interesting is that UBI wouldn’t actually have to pay for 100% of people’s living expenses. imagine i get a $100, then i’m gonna spend $30 of that on food at a nearby restaurant, so the chef and waiters are gonna get money, which they then spend again … what i’m saying is that $1 in UBI does far more than $1, because people are gonna spend it and then other people are gonna have it … so you probably need to pay far less than 100% of living expenses, only like maybe 30% could be enough.
Or less. Alaska’s dividend program is a couple thousand a year and significantly reduces its poverty rate.
Defining living expenses is tough. If everyone is homeless, getting them a studio or tiny house seems basic, but if everyone is in a studio, getting them into a one bedroom seems basic. If everyone struggles to get enough clean water to drink, having water for drinking and washing seems basic, but if everyone has plenty of wash water then they want pools and irrigated golf courses. The way human brains are programmed with a hedonistic treadmill means we will never feel like 100% of our living expenses are covered. But every sustainable bit of help we can set up society to deliver makes our society richer.
*hedonic treadmill.
Well, our current system is unfair. So you can get on board with helping struggling artists, or you could rather more people struggle.
If this scheme works out, it doesn’t take much to think this could be applied to more and more groups.
It has to start somewhere, and opposing this because it doesn’t immediately include everyone is short sighted and selfish imo. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good here.
It gets even more unfair: participants get selected by chance (if they fulfill the criteria)
BUT it’s just a pilot project. I hope it’s successful and gets implemented for everyone - I mean everyone has the potential to become an artist if money isn’t the deciding factor anymore.
Who knows how many great musicians, painter, etc. are stuck in a 9-5 job? I for example want to create a game… Not really “art” in the classical sense, but creative and prone to bring me next to no money unless I have a lot of luck.
Hell, even scientists might be more free in what they want to study if money is less of a problem…
UBI might be a great thing and I agree that art isn’t the only thing that could benefit from it.
How many great artists, thinkers, and other potential geniuses are actually out there in the world, but they were unable to fulfill their potential because they had to struggle just to survive?
Imagine how many Ramanujans are actually out there, unable to do what they’re great at because they’re being crushed by the capitalist machine.
I would guess, it means you have an art degree or something of the sort.
Reminds me of when Ireland uploaded one of the most ridiculous rap videos ever to their country’s youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8
They’ve always prioritized the arts, mostly because the English have been trying to erase Irish culture for centuries.
It makes perfect since why Ireland would prioritize Irish artists.
One of those guys does the blindboy podcast now, it’s well worth a listen.
Absolute tune, the video is hilarious too.
The question is: Who or what determines if you are an artist?
This is why universal* basic is the proper way. We’re heading toward a world where there will never be enough existing jobs for everyone who wants to work, let alone those who can’t work, and finally the smallest cohort, those who don’t want to “work” at all.
The administrative burden of means testing so many people is absurd. And when you do and they fail then what?
People who are against looking after the unemployed rarely say the quiet part out loud. That they don’t care about homelessness, disease, violent crime, or whatever, since they can isolate themselves away from it. The law works for them, and so does the system, so they’re safe. So let the peasants who refuse to tow the line figure it out on their own.
*universal Took me a minute 😅
Fuck, oops. Swipe typing on Android is a minefield of typos. But it’s so fast one handed.
One day AI will properly fix my typos. Maybe.
I agree with this, but I want to ask a question as this has come up in topic recently in a friend group. Do you not worry that “universal” becomes “stipulated”?
I don’t think there’s a meaningful difference. If you’re a citizen or permanent resident of a country with UBI you should get the UBI if you’re of working age. No exceptions.
It’s not the only progressive policy that’s needed. Certain regulations over the cost of basic services and commodities is essential too. Housing/rent, food, and healthcare prices to name a few need to be controlled or there’s a risk those dependent on the UBI will be priced out of the market. That’s the biggest challenge to making it work, next to of course taxing the wealthy their fair share.
They’ve been saying this for decades and this was the birth of bullshit jobs.
You mean in Ireland?
So far I am unaware of a UBI policy having been appropriately implemented anywhere in the world.
It would be the end of “bullshit jobs” and make employment outside of specialist roles people actually want to do a sellers’ market.
You’ll have to raise the pay, benefits, and other working conditiona until it actually becomes a job people want to do, rather.
Right now there are enough desperate people, particularly immigrants in many countries, willing to do anything. That should be an ethical problem for all of us.
Immigrants probably wouldn’t get the UBI and would still be more likely to take up unwanted jobs, so there would still need to be instruments like minimum wage (or better, guaranteed minimum income) that apply to all people engaged in full time work. The GMI should only be needed in industries with low profits or no profits so these employers can offer attractive and fair wages.
You yourself?
Are you using most of your day being creative, or do you have steady employment? You don’t need an authority to determine who is an artist
That would lead to loads of self-proclaimed “artists”.
No, it would lead to loads of self-proclaimed artists. Successful and real are not the same thing
Wishing to be an artist does not make it so. There is a lot of human slop in “arts”.
Here it is guys, found who’s the authority on what is art and what is slop
Everyone is his or her personal authority on what is art and what is slop. That’s what makes art subjective. Which also makes defining who is an artist subjective.
For my PERSONAL perception, quite a lot of what is sold as art is slop. If you consider randomly splattered paint or rusty heaps of steel “art”, fine, that is also your PERSONAL decision.
So you are saying that no single authority can define who is or isn’t an artist because art is personal? I agree.
Being paid to create art, that’s the literal job description
And it’s not a full UBI, it’s got an assessment as part of it
This would fix me
I hate being alive.
I don’t know if I would stop working, between my wife and I we currently make a little bit more than that both working full time.
But my mental health would just go through the roof, almost all of my anxiety and depression is rooted in financial instability because I am shit poor at saving and was more interested in skiing than college.
Being able to work part time when I need a break and not fall behind the stupid money driven eat race, I think I would be a lot healthier and happier.
“I’d rather be an out of work musician than an out of work pipefitter.” – The Commitments
I want to become an artist and move to Ireland now.
I hope such sentiment on a broad scale doesn’t overwhelm ireland, leading to capitalists saying such a system doesn’t work and nobody ever implementing it again.
UBI has been tried since the 1960s with the results that you describe
Well shite.
Don’t misunderstand, I am for UBI, but historically, it’s been tried over and over, and never heard from again. I suspect the need of the ruling class to watch ants take public transit to perform ritualistic useless “work” is what really drives the economy.
Oh, I did not misunderstand, don’t worry. Still though, shite. And what you’re describing id just another angle on the problem of social construction of value. The thing is though, try a thousand times and it will work once and if people like it, it gets to stay in one form or another. We’ll get there.
Imagine Irish homeless turn to storytelling as an art in order to be eligible for the pay? That would be incredible.
Good news. I hope Canada gets there, but I doubt we will. We are too focused on oil expansion and infrastructure to pay any mind to the ‘dirty poors’ right now.
If we had kept Petro Canada as a crown corporation past the 1980s, we could be funding UBI NOW, but of course, conservatives fucked that up.
We wouldn’t have foolishly gotten rid of the railway in the country if our past governments weren’t so corrupt.
conservatives fucked that up
That was a Conservative + Liberal special, both of them selling off our assets all over the place.
Feels like this is going to devolve into a bit of an Old Boys Club. As in, only ‘recognised’ artists get the basic income, and who decides who gets recognised? Art organisations, and those will very quickly restrict their membership or else be flooded by anyone who claims to be an artist and can get an AI to spit out some slop and get some moron to buy it.
Then, the government can go to those art organisations and go “Right, no more art critical of the government or we won’t be recognising your organisation for the Basic Income scheme”, thus cutting off the funding for the membership and, driven by the need to eat and survive, said membership will alter their art to be more comfortable to whoever happens to be in charge at the time.
This is basically what happens in Brasil. We have a government funding program for a few decades now. The big names (ie. Friends and family) get up to a million to make their bad movies and the small folk never get approved.
I worked in the ministry of culture. We were petitioning for funding on EU programs to open libraries in small cities (50k EUR) while singers got that from the ministry for a single performance. Not to pay for the stage and lights, that was just the singer.
Every publisher has to send copies of every book to the national archive. There isn’t enough budget to catalogue or correctly store them, so they lay in gigantic warehouses gathering dust and being eaten by mites. It is so bad it is considered hazardous environment so it is super expensive to fix it.
But the famous director gets hundreds of thousands every year to make shitty movies nobody sees, because that one time 20 years ago he did something good.
But the famous director gets hundreds of thousands every year to make shitty movies nobody sees, because that one time 20 years ago he did something good.
To be fair, this is also how it works in Hollywood.
They should just give a basic income to everyone
Shift the zero
It makes sense
You’d reduce so much cost
Which is paid by the government
Which is paid by your taxes
Give your tax money to the people who needs them not the people who decide who needs money
Why did basic income fell of our radar? And were left with fasism everywhere?
