When a capitalist system collapse, the always make an reset with a war.
If you want to know more, Lenin described this in more detail in “Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism”.
You mean they know exactly what the problem but choose bury their heads in the sand.
What’s the problem? Is it unchecked capitalism? I think it might be unchecked capitalism.
Even checked capitalism is still the problem. Both decay, both lead to imperialism.
I’m an enjoyer of “checked capitalism” as in a communist party holds all the political power.
Seems that way through enough experience and empirical evidence. I just wonder what could have happened if we enforced anti-trust law earlier on… they were meant to help prevent monopolistic companies from taking over everything. Maybe it was a lost hope, but I would’ve liked to see the system functioning as intended for once.
Well, if the penalty for an antitrust violation is a penny for every billion dollars made while screwing mom and pops small businesses and destroying competition, then there might as well be no anti trust laws at all. They just don’t work. Why should I care about a fine if it’s only 0.001% of what I made while commiting the violations.
Government itself arises out of conflict between classes, and the fundamental mechanism of capitalism is accumulation. The former means without pretty intensive upheaval and reorientation of governmental systems, the institutions are unlikely to interfere with the core function they were designed to protect. The latter means that no matter what protections you put in place, by the very nature of how it works, capitalism will trend towards monopoly.
The truth is that it can’t. In economic formations where private property is the principle aspect, you can’t really take control of capital and plan it to the necessary extent, those at the top are those priests of capital best suited for endlessly profiting and growing. It isn’t “meritocracy,” the system needs profit and will destroy anything that doesn’t help with that. Only socialism can truly be planned.
Why do you make that claim when it has not proven to be true fir almost all capitalist nations?
It’s a trend observable in all capitalist nations. If you develop enough, the rate of profit falls, and so you need to expand outward to profit. This is the basis of imperialism, the carving out of the global south for profit. Across the west, this is a fact, even if it manifests in different ways.
Those on the imperialized end cannot themselves really become imperialist, and the total capital to be imperialized is limited, so you end up with nationalist countries that aren’t imperialist because there’s nothing left to imperialize, but this stays at a crossroads where imperialist countries threaten you into opening up your capital markets to be imperialized.
If it has not happened in most cases you cannot observe a trend because that trend is not actually occurring. Your whole claim starts off flawed.
It’s happened in all possible cases, where do you think it hasn’t happened?
Most capitalist nations are not engaging in imperialism especially those in the global south.
Butchering the definition, imperialism is the monopolist stage of capitalism, specifically the monopoly of finance capital. This can be expanded but there is no point in doing so here.
The monopoly on finance capital is already formed by a cartel of mostly american+european financial institutions and so on. These countries are what we call imperialist, we do not call Russia imperialist simply because they do not have this monopoly and are actively fighting against it, their future ambitions are a story for another day.
Let’s say that somehow the cartel completely disappeared and banks were to start from zero again, a bunch of local banks would emerge all around the world. As time went on, the most efficient banks would inevitably best its competitors, consolidate their position and gain increasingly more market share, until it becomes a local monopoly, then they go global and the process repeats until a global monopoly is formed, this is what happens on every single industry.
This is an inevitable outcome of capitalism simply due the nature of capital growing, capital stagnates when it faces competition so capitalists inevitably organize into cartels to consolidate a monopoly. The only way to do some sort of “checked capitalism” is to completely strip capitalists off political power through a violent revolution, like China did.
When Cowbee says that capitalism decays and leads into imperialism this is what i think he means, and he is right.
Pretty much exactly what I am trying to say, even down to explaining that if the imperialist countries collapsed overnight, the remaining capitalist countries would try to re-assert themselves as the new imperialists. Very well said!
1·8 months agoThat’s a nice comment. Too bad QuoVadisHomines will never see it since sh.itjust.works has defederated lemmygrad.
Did they really? Lmao nothing of value was lost.
Liberalism cannot even protect their own liberal values so let’s not protend they’d really try and fix broken systems
Some liberals don’t even think there’s a problem. They think movements like MAGA and Brexit are just low information voters being riled up by algorithms and populists.
Liberals literally marry into Maga and fascist families by fooling themselves using this sophistry.
they be living the most insane and obvious property crisis ever and they would still say it’s just people voting wrong.
They don’t just think they’re low information voters, liberals make completely casual attributions to low IQ i.e. scientific racist garbage but completely normalized.
There’s a ton of people on all sides of the political spectrum who are low information because they do not understand how to vet sources.
Yes, only a tiny fraction of the population can be part of the enlightened liberal elite that votes correctly like you and magically makes crapitalism function properly for everyone.
Well it certainly takes a failure of those skills to utilize many of the socialist publications as a primary resource.
Eglin Chairforce heroes being useful again.
I spent my weekend protesting ICE and feeding people in a soup kitchen. What the fuck are you doing to make things better for anyone else?
Yeah protesting ICE, soup kitchen volunteer and anti-communist cold warrior arguing in favor of capitalism and whining about tankies on lemmy. The libertarian type of imaginary liberal lol.
Honey you are making an ass of yourself in exactly this way in this very thread
Only if you accept Marxist/leftist theory as facts and you shouldn’t dothat since so much is unproven or proven to not be true. This is true for any political theory
Pure mind palace stupidity. You’re walking extremely worn paths used by people who are stupid but trying to sound smart. The “everyone is wrong” armchair wisdom that serves no purpose other than giving you an excuse to not investigate your own words.
You don’t even seem to know what ‘marxist/leftist’ theory is categorically but you have the vague notion that ‘so much’ is disproved.
Put actual brain work behind that statement. I’m sick of watching you get treated with deference despite your bad faith and proud ignorance.
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Holy fuck this is spot on.
I’m so tired of hearing “they’re so racist”
It’s such a terminating clause. Like we don’t need to actually understand at a deeper level why guy born a Mexican, still is Mexican but is voting for Trump because… They’re racist against Mexicans???
I’m so done with the left. It’s so tiring. They even adapt their messages. I can go back 15 years and still see the exact comments of “they’re racist” while right wing dominate spaces seem to come up with new things every 6 months. Soy cuck Wojack probably conjures up a whole era all our minds right? What about “man they’re racist” what does that conjure up?
The left should lose the right to call anyone low information voters until they sort themselves the fuck out
Libs arent generally considered left.
I think you’re confused, liberals aren’t left. The commenter you are replying to is complaining about liberals, ie “moderate” right wingers, failing to understand far-right wingers.
Liberalism is the start of the left unless you are incredibly eurocentric. Most of the world is still arguing liberalism vs authoritarianism and Europe is adopting that once again.
Liberalism was “the left” in the 1700s and has desperately tried to maintain that label ever since, all while doing anything it can to preserve the status quo with violence.
“Authoritarianism” isn’t an ideology, nor does it have a corresponding mode of production. That isn’t the argument. The increased despotism in Europe is a consequence of capitalism’s decay, it’s a very liberal despotism.
Liberalism is not the start of the left. Liberalism is the status quo in capitalist society, it’s the ideological component of capitalism. The start of leftism is socialism, the start of rightism is capitalism.
No “authoritarianism” is a end point on the binary that should used rather than capitalism vs anticapitalism it reflects the actual debates going on in non-Western nations
You whole position is eurocentric because it accepts capitalism and liberalism as a default state.
This is wrong.
First of all, ideologies are not recipes, nor choices made by people, but a product of material conditions and reality. There isn’t a debate between “authoritarianism” and “liberalism,” there’s a decaying liberal capitalist system and different classes pushing for their own interests.
Secondly, it isn’t a Eurocentric view. The majority of the world is liberal. Countries like China and Cuba that have managed to move into socialism are not the majority. What’s left and right isn’t determined by the median opinion, but between moving onto the next mode of production or trying to retain the current system (or even move backwards).
There is no “authoritarian vs liberalism” debate, they aren’t even antithetical to each other. It isn’t a spectrum. Most liberal countries are despotic.
That’s a very marxist perspective. There very much is a debate going on all across the planet as to how much freedom from government and religion that people should have. If you bother to educate yourself on the politics of Muslim dominant nations you will see they are having those discussions right now.
To be clear Cowbee, you are talking theory and I am asking you to pull your head out of your books and look at the world around you.
Liberalism is authoritarian.
Liberals are left
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Only if you are eurocentric and accept liberalism as a default state. I would argue eurocentric perspectives are inherently problematic.
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Neoliberalism is absolutely not the default when we look at the whole world. If we look at the developed world it is the default. That is not the case for everyone.
Your binary only makes sense for some of the world. That’s why I keep pointing to how eurocentric it us.
No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left.
Yes they are. A Liberal for most political subgroups in liberalism are left of center with the odd leaning center right. Liberalism values mostly are left of center values.
Please define liberalism for me.
No, they aren’t. Liberalism is the ideological superstructure of capitalism, while leftists support socialism of various fashions. The driving distinction between right and left is retaining the current system, or progressing onwards to the next.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/left-liberals
Liberal/Left-leaning people embrace social services and government intervention in the economy. Conservative/Right-leaning people support lower taxes, free markets and less government intervention in the economy. Libertarians advocate both personal and economic liberty (freedom). Authoritarians favour strict obedience to authority and government control, at the expense of personal and economic freedom.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/leftright/
the word left is applied to people and groups that have liberal views.
What is “center” supposed to mean here?
lmao what is it with people trying to map abstract political concepts onto geometric and spacial shapes?
The colloquial meaning of “liberal” used by some Americans does not align with how it’s used in political theory. That’s okay, words have different meaning in different contexts.
“Left” and “right” stem from the French Revolution (1789!) where the people who sat on the left of the National Assembly were progressives that supported the revolution and people who sat on the right were conservatives that wanted to preserve the old system. Liberalism (as defined in political theory, not colloquially) is the dominant global ideology and thus is no longer progressive or radical. It may have been progressive when monarchy was the main form of government, propping up feudalism as the main economic structure. But that’s obviously not how the world works 200+ years later
Yes, liberals tend to define the entire scope of political economy to a narrow, capitalist viewpoint. That doesn’t make it correct. A huge range of viewpoints narrowly occupies the “radical” portion, while an absolute mountain of space comparatively is given to subdivisions of capitalism. It’s a deeply silly graph.
I think I get it. Right wing groups like koch Bros and heritage institutes push the left to fracture into very niche small subsets in order to isolate making it hard for those groups to organize and easier to kill them off. Much like how a cheetah separates a young calf from the herd. So what groups are you talking about for your “huge range of viewpoints”
Totally not silly at all to get hyper specific about political ideology. I’m a liberal right center neo cat Audi rhino born a capitalist but transitioned to a socialist somewhere around 1992 when political synergy was at its peak
Someone hearing for the first time that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher are staunch liberals.
That entirely depends on whether we accept liberalism as a default which most nations do not. Most of the world is still arguing authoritarianism vs liberalism right now.
Are you guys being serious right now? This is insane. Liberal values are left of center.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history, but you’d have to read many more foundational texts before that one.
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Liberals espouse various and often mutually conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Emerging together does not mean they are dependent on each other.
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialismBoth are political left of center views. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalism.
As the other commenter mentioned, it seems everyone here has a very binary understanding of things. I’d be cautious as I’ve seen this same binary views with Trump fuck heads in 2016.
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do.
No, you are using a different binary and I would argue you are using the incorrect binary as most are not dividing over support for capitalism.
Yea but you’re all not authority on any of this. So it doesn’t matter. The rest of the world knows liberalism as left of center. Just facts
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Which century are you from? 18th?
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
I think it’s a very nuanced position but I still defend that it’s center left. Economically conservative I’m assuming means pro capitalist.
I support cooperatives and changing laws to fix how people are allowed to invest in the market. I don’t see why those things are not left.
Look at Mondragon Spain as one example of a proven successful example. Like historically successful. They changed how corporations are controlled after WWII and have proven successfully it works.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
You’re arguing with people on lemmy.ml.
I got nothing better going on.
How can liberals be left when liberalism is the hegemonic ideology in the US. Both parties are liberal and both parties represent oligarch interests, the only difference between them is in how to manage the internal contradictions of the country.
Liberals are rightwing.
There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there’s a small resurgance with Mamdani.
But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing.
Yea what about in Canada
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
Canada’s two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that.
Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party).
Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Yea I get it. Liberalism is left of center. There’s no denying it. A lot of you just moved far left to the point that you all think the center moved with you. It did not. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalist. The options are not support socialism or capitalism. That is very lazy way to categorize the political spectrum. There’s more to it.
What if a leftist invented wojack?
Even better to my point then that the right was more effective with using it. Something about the left is super passive which is weird because they’re so loud with what they’ll do one day if ever they had the opportunity to do something about the thing they’re really mad at for that day they’ll totally do it.
I mean the internet is the worst place to do politics so idc if the right used some meme I made up. Want to do politics go outside, it was campaigning and canvassing that won the election for Zohran, it’s also what got Die Linke 10% of the vote in Germany. Real politics happens in the real world. Yeah the right wing is loud online, but they’re fucking cowards in real life. Most of the leftists I know are doing shit in real life not posting. FYI I told the wojack joke in real life then somebody posted it on the web, same with shocked pikachu also a joke told in real life. You’d be suprised how much doing stuff in real life achieves.
Everything is online. Nobody knows you knocked on doors in the neighborhood while people were eating supper. After supper people are logging into their favorite social media and engaging with content. Content which right now is leaning heavily on the right and affecting generations. I’ll argue all day that everything you said is exactly what the left is fucked and totally losing everything for the foreseeable future.
Zohran I hope to God succeeds but he’s going to need so much support online and the left removed themselves from every platform, they have no connection, structure or voices to organize online, they have no tools to assist. They all hate AI. They think every platforms is racist except fully leftist ones.
TPUSA, Heritage foundation, Cato institute, Koch Bros fucking UFC and barstool sports are all going to really amplify and sabotage Zohran. They have so many ins with business and media, they’ll all self sandstone sabotage to make sure the numbers can be amplified ONLINE to as many people as possible. The left is so far behind the times, they have no ability to counter this very foreseeable future.
You’re right. I’m one of the ones who got offline from the big social media sites. Honestly, I feel like it’s a civic duty and have tried to convince everyone of Fediverse accounts and have failed. I also don’t know what’s going on in my friend’s lives, and I even got off Bluesky due to tracking or some other offense I can’t remember. But I can tell you for sure, once the US gov becomes destabilized enough, that data collection from all these years will be abused to the point that all the people in the “I have nothing to hide” club are seriously going to regret being on Facebook and Instagram, etc. This surveillance state is going to be awful when they succeed, and they will.
I did do for the same reasons. But I question if this speeds things up.
If I was a big think tank charged with changing the public opinion to favor the right wing, my first thing I’d advise you to do was remove political opponents from the view of the general public.
Then once the area has been cleared, it’ll be cheaper to flood the zone with messages and opinions and content that shapes public opinion you favor the view I want.
Lol ok mr very online guy. You know that those media organisations you mentioned are all funded by billionaires. People like me aren’t funded because we say stuff that is uncomfortable and I don’t give a shit about appeasing advertisers. The biggest difference you can make is in the real world, being there for your community volunteering tennant unions etc. Posting is the lowest effort and easiest thing you can do. Actual struggle happens in real life.
Then why the fuck do you people show up to protest??
How does it make any sense to you that people will drive miles to some street and stand around while police kick your heads in. You cannot argue protesting publicly is effective yet engagement and capture online is not. What is really fucking crazy is how a lot of the left are convinced a public protest is Mecca while online engagement (which every one is putting money into as you said) is crap.
Almost like the people who put money into the effective methods are convincing their opponent to do the ineffective thing while they convince them the effective methods that they’re all invested in is useless.
They’re funding what you are doing for free right now. It’s insane how thick minded so many of you are. Every comment or content you all make costs them money to counter. It’s a numbers game. It costs you nothing. Take every protester willing to show up in the streets and teach them how to create media.
The left is cooked. So much brain rot on the left. You’re all calling people who have beat you in every arena as low information. Yet they beat you all, everywhere. How’d that no Kings protest work out?
Online is where opinions are shaped and formed. It’s a force multiplier. I’m so done with the left. Have no idea what they’re doing. It’s like watching people click their fingers in a park all over again.
