- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
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More men should read The will to change by bell hooks. Patriarchy hurts men in different ways than it does women, we are all oppressed by it, including gender-nonconforming individuals. Patriarchy stunts male emotional health and creates these unhealthy repressed feelings. Rather than blaming women, men should look towards the systems that impact our daily lives and how they force us into little boxes we don’t always fit neatly into naturally, suffocating us and justifying the general subjugation of women, which in no unclear terms exceeds the suffering of men under patriarchy.
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I liked it a lot! I know people talk about the patriarchy a lot, and thus a lot of what it puts forward isn’t “new,” but the depth hooks goes in on the various facets of patriarchy specifically really helps a lot.
It is so fucking odd, how many people are claiming that e.g. the male loneliness issue is blaming women and then agree with your post.
I agree with your post. I just don’t understand how so many people here can agree that the patriarchy is harming men and is e.g. isolating men, but then turn around and act like mentioning the symptoms and talking about them, makes you misogynistic.
I don’t get it. Women have my support, I just hope I will have theirs too.
I support mens health.
Ive a million stories of hurt men who didnt deal or heal well with their hurt, and ended up hurting others (and themselves) for it. Usually its some tragic thing that happened when they were young and never dealt with it, because culturally men have been told to shove it down and man up for decades at least. But, I’ve been told many a tragedy from male family members, friends and ex lovers. And then watched them go from victim to abuser, or some other consequence, and its sad
Men should be taught, and allowed to express themselves. Its literally okay to cry, its a process of emotion.
Support fellow humans
Fr. A male friend of mine got into make up. Nail polish and such. I notice men who do this, stick to safe black. I asked if he wanted more colour, and he did. I remember cracking being a thing back in 2008 or so. A great caviat to go from just black, to black with colour! Perhaps men could bring this back into fashion lol
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hooks suggests that men need to develop a more nuanced and inclusive understanding of masculinity, one that values emotions, relationships, and mutual respect.
Yep, written by a woman. Replace that with “value traversing rivers on couches strapped to floats and having a blast with the pals” and you’ll get somewhere.
Valuing something already is an emotion so you’re being emotional about being emotional about something so, yeah, no. Go climb a tree, create a tasty recipe, fix a shoe. Shave the soap.
There’s not a male loneliness epidemic.
There’s a loneliness epidemic.
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf
“Joking” by trying to turn this into men vs women is pretty gross.
The solutions look a lot different for the real loneliness epidemic than a “male loneliness epidemic”. You fix the first by creating more walkable cities, more third places you can be without needing to spend money, and giving people the time and money they need to go out, do things, and socialize.
The proposed solutions for the “male loneliness epidemic” seem to be a lot more like shitty men saying “women need to lower their standards and be okay with being my therapist/mom/girlfriend, while I change nothing about myself”
To the average person not caught up in culture war issues, the OP looks like the exact mirror of “women need to lower their standards and be okay with being my therapist/mom/girlfriend, while I change nothing about myself”. That’s a disgusting take, as is saying that men are lonely because they objectify women and have no empathy.
On their face they’re both shitty misogynist/misandrist viewpoints.
It’s bigotry and sharing bigoted memes is wrong, regardless of which ‘side’ is being targeted.
In addition, the underlying message in both of these viewpoints is an attempt to frame the real loneliness epidemic as something that is fabricated by ‘the other side’ and not a real issue with real victims.
There’s a reason the guy in the meme is dressed like a clown.
I completely understand the meme.
I just think the underlying assumptions that the joke is built on are misandrist. In addition, the implication that the loneliness epidemic isn’t real or is largely caused by men (or women in the reverse of this meme) is causing real damage.
You can’t talk about loneliness online without toxic people (“incel”/“femcel”) using these kind of “jokes” to be bigots and people who’re not steeped in online culture read this as “men are lonely because they objectify women and are have no empathy”
It’s not against the community rules, but it’s a joke built on bigotry and I think it’s toxic.
It is a parody of the incel belief system, not actually meant to represent an equal cross section of society
It can be read either way.
It’s also simple enough in structure to be generated slop and the OP could just be an automated account.
It’s hard to say what is true, but on the face of it we should all be able to agree that it would be a bigoted opinion to express literally, out loud and in public.
(Like the OP is doing)
The title should be different but the meme stands on its own. The clown has built a logical fallacy of why he is lonely. To me this is a jab at incel beliefs and doesn’t have a deeper meaning
maybe people want to talk about the deeper meaning behind the jab . does that make you uncomfortable? there is a nice place called Reddit where you might fit in, if so
Lol, you see how I have been respectful but you are not, it would seem you are the redditor
It’s the 1% vs the working class, not gender vs gender.
I don’t buy into this claim at all. There are millions of opportunities to interact with others and make friends. There’s no issue of loneliness at all social level, people just chose to be off-putting enough so as to be lonely
- Women are male lonliness
- Everything and everyone is weakness
- I’ve made hating dishwashers my entire personality
- There’s a empathy epidemic
I’ll add that people aren’t being hugged, & touched enough. Also, infrastructure sucks to encourage socializing
Its an epidemic of that. We are social creatures. That’s our main motto
When we work together, live in groups, etc we all feel better. Reminds us of our tribe days
A big part of human connection is being physical with each other in a chill way. So try to hug your bros more, & get things done as a unit with women!
Both sides are supposed to be allies to each other
the problem is that incels focusing in that problem think that they are owed sex and attention from attractive women. when the real solution of to develop and use third spaces, and develop social connections of any kind.
This was a pivotal video about “nice guys” I watched growing up that imo everyone should watch.
Favorite line:
This is not a transaction where you walk up to the cashier and pull out your nice bucks and buy sex and romance.
Unfortunately, many men think hugging or touching each other is effeminate and gay.
The guys saying the top three things aren’t necessarily the same as those saying the bottom thing. But there is definitely some overlap. Which is depressing. Though, I mean is that really that surprising given the state of the world and how stupid the average person is?
The loneliness epidemic also effects women. We’re all more lonely and miserable these days. I think really men and women are alienated from each other in large numbers due to internet brain rot. And being too broke to do anything outside except like… go to a public park or a library or something.
The shitty rightwing politics comes after, the average person is too stupid to not get immediately sucked into manipulative rightwing grift when they’re painfully lonely.
I say this as I consume internet brain rot myself. Though at least its on Lemmy and not Tik Tok, Reddit, or Facebook, and its during work, not my free time.
boss makes a dollar,
i make a dime,
that’s why i Lemmy
on company timeBest time to do anything is company time.
But going to the park or beach is fun. My first date with my partner was drinking cider on a park bench by a river.
Not everyone loves meandering around a park or beach. Though I’ll admit its good for our brains to do so. It always feels like a chore to me, I get bored.
Also was it alcoholic cider? That would explain why it was fun.
Also those places aren’t really great for meeting people and even then you don’t want to make those locations the only dating locations.
Cider is always alcoholic in the UK unless specifically sold as low alcohol. Typically first dates are not the same place you first meet someone.
Typically first dates are not the same place you first meet someone.
I know, but that there aren’t a lot of places to meet people in person without spending a bunch of money is a major problem and meeting people online to date sucks.
My first date with ny husband we went on a walk on a trail near our home. We walked for 6 hours lol
Boys are taught to ignore emotions (“are you crying? Man up!”)
But emotions is what connects humans (and animals for that matter) and can’t really be ignored anyway
Join the two… and you get loneliness, frustration, rage.
We should start a conversation on emotional education (not only for boys but especially for boys)
Because nobody wants men to be emotional. When I started opening up is when my marriage started falling apart lol
If opening up is what caused the marriage to fall apart, it was built on a broken foundation and was doomed from the start. You’re only finding out now because emotional unavailability hides that sort of thing.
Yeah as I said… emotional education should not be only for boys.
Sorry mate (or congratulation… depending from the context 🙂)
Yeah happens even before marriage.
Yeah I ain’t ever showing emotions again except to a paid professional lmao.
Most women want someone very emotionally stable
Lol maybe talk to nicer women?
It’s not a “niceness” thing it’s instinctual
I just want to butt in that while the meme is stupid, most women are not awful either.
No of course they aren’t. Who said they are?
I’m saying women are put off my emotional instability aka “showing your feelings”
That’s so fucking silly
Why? Women want stability and protection usually
You’d be surprised
I think it’s in our nature.
I’ve seen no evidence that these kinds of traits are inherently biological.
Regardless of the fact that we have significant evidence that these more “new” forms of masculinity that incorporate less domineering and aggressive mannerisms are beneficial to men, I simply haven’t seen any evidence that these traits are biological.
In the same way that when you don’t socialize a child to prefer certain clothes or toys, (or stigmatize against them) they generally just go with what they prefer in the moment along lines that don’t match the gender binary, from what I’ve seen, the same is generally true for behaviors. We’re heavily influenced by our cultures and by extension, our upbringing, to a degree that explains why these mannerisms are commonly expressed along gendered lines.
Having kids changed my view. Originally I believed nature influenced our gender roles. Since having kids I have seen in my kids and others that there are clear differences in how both boys and girls interact with the world and both are pretty incredible to watch. I think maybe the idea that being more stoic and less emotional is ok.
Saying all that, there are definitely cultural influences that can take these inherent traits to toxic levels.
I’d like to see studies showing when kids are left to their own that they will trend towards non traditional gender based toys. My gut is believing that this may not need proof that girls and boys do not experience emotions with similar intensity.
One thing I think is a clear difference is attention to details between men and women. What I worry is that if we start thinking men and women are more similar than they are we could run into problems when average people wrongly assume the other experiences things they do.
they generally just go with what they prefer in the moment along lines that don’t match the gender binary
Nope. Lego did a large behavioural study on this because this was their assumption, they thought they were doing completely gender-neutral stuff, but even controlling for parents’s biases their stuff wasn’t gender-neutral when it came to actually be interesting to kids. I’m talking about stuff like the city series, here: A street, bunch of houses, bunch of minifigs. Figures that the girls by and large where looking at the inside of the buildings, finding them empty, and lost interest while boys where seeing the streets, found ample of detail and also a car to drive around, and created stories. There are, of course, as always exceptions to the binary but the overall trend was undeniable.
That (and the insistence of US stores on not having gender-neutral isles and putting Lego in the boy’s section) made them create the Friends series: Detailed house interiors, larger, more detailed minifigs. The pink is for the stores and parents, the interiors for the girls, the build-what-you-want flexibility for the humans.
Generally speaking, I think that difference feminism has been discarded prematurely. Sure, none of the normative BS that many of its proponents espoused should ever see the light of day, but denying difference is harmful in its own way, and the reason is the inevitability of essentialising: If you say “there is no difference at all between men and women” you’re bound to essentialise everyone towards your own gender. And it’s way better to be essentialised as an apple when you’re an apple than it is to be essentialised as a pear.
Do you realise that kids before puberty don’t have much difference from biological point of view. Sexual organs are not developed or fully developed and no hormones to speak of.
The story of Lego you said… cool you can control parents behaviour… what about peer pressure? Or the idea was to control the parents of a whole town (including Cartoons and TV shows)?
Boys develop coarse motor skills first, then fine motor skills, for girls it’s the other way around. Which also means that girls are quite good at sitting still in primary school, boys, without getting tired out in recess, very much aren’t. Cue “behavioural issues”.
Lego did control for everything that could be controlled. They’re the OG “our toys are for everyone” company. They thought that their stuff was gender neutral, that stores and parents, society, were the problem, but had to admit that, no, kids actually do have, statistically speaking, different play preferences. Their female set designers didn’t catch it because they were not kids, any more.
And “no hormones to speak of” MF if there were no hormones involved male karyotypes would develop female.
Lego did a large behavioural study on this because this was their assumption, they thought they were doing completely gender-neutral stuff, but even controlling for parents’s biases their stuff wasn’t gender-neutral when it came to actually be interesting to kids.
Interesting. I can’t seem to find anything on this study, but maybe that’s just my search engine not providing very relevant results.
What is a relevant result is the study from just a few years ago that Lego also commissioned, which they’re using to justify making their product lines more gender neutral, after finding that:
“girls today feel increasingly confident to engage in all types of play and creative activities, but remain held back by society’s ingrained gender stereotypes” and that “Girls […] are more open towards different types of creative play compared to what their parents and society typically encourage.”
And they found a significant effect from parents pushing their kids into certain interests and hobbies influencing the behaviors of children:
Our insights further indicate that girls are typically encouraged into activities that are more cognitive, artistic and related to performance compared to boys who are more likely to be pushed into physical and STEM-like activities (digital, science, building, tools). Parents from this study are almost five times as likely to encourage girls over boys to engage in dance (81% vs. 19%) and dress-up (83% vs. 17%) activities, and over three times as likely to do the same for cooking/baking (80% vs. 20%). Adversely, they are almost four times as likely to encourage boys over girls to engage in program games (80% vs. 20%) and sports (76% vs. 24%) and over twice as likely to do the same when it comes to coding toys (71% vs. 29%)
And they even showed that kids felt pressured not to engage in cross-gendered play, even when they wanted to:
71% of boys vs. 42% of girls say they worry about being made fun of if they play with a toy typically associated for the other gender.
Now, a quick note on your other point.
If you say “there is no difference at all between men and women” you’re bound to essentialise everyone towards your own gender.
I don’t believe there is no difference at all between men and women. I simply believe that a lot of the things we say are inherent differences are actually not as inherent as people tend to believe.
For example, I’ve seen no evidence that women are inherently more kind/caring/empathetic than men in any biological way, only that society socializes them to be so, and thus we see that trend perpetuated over time. Yet if you ask most people, they’ll assume there’s something biological that makes women more like that emotionally.
I don’t believe there is no difference at all between men and women. I simply believe that a lot of the things we say are inherent differences are actually not as inherent as people tend to believe.
Depending on who you mean with “we” I definitely agree.
For example, I’ve seen no evidence that women are inherently more kind/caring/empathetic than men in any biological way, only that society socializes them to be so,
…and fails at doing so, if I may add. Male-pattern aggression is simply more obvious because it’s in your face physical while female-pattern is psychological, always ensuring plausible deniability.
Yet if you ask most people, they’ll assume there’s something biological that makes women more like that emotionally.
Women favour low-risk engagement, passive aggressiveness over overt aggressiveness. Thus you see emotional manipulation used way more often, one approach being self-victim-framing, and for that the narrative of “oh women are so delicate and emotional they have to be protected no matter what they do” fits the bill. Female viciousness is beautiful but I very much prefer it in the “never start a fight, but always finish it” version. Relevant symphonic metal. Also if you’re trying it with me you’re getting tickled into submission.
When all your “friends” are alpha bro podcasters trying to get you to buy shit, yeah you’re gonna be lonely.
The young men’s version of a facebook MLM group.
Empathy being both a weakness and a sin…
What more proof do you need that America is a failed state?
Are these the same guys that think that eating pussy makes you gay?
It’s no fucking wonder they’re lonely.
Have they tried not being assholes?
Sopranos confirmed that…never made sense…
Anyone who says that has never been offered pussy, at least not twice. I ate pussy before I fucked pussy, although it happenned in short succession
I have always found that being good at it is a very good way to be invited back. It’s the least gay thing that you can do.
More sociological insights from the keen minds who teach us you need a small penis to like sports cars.
What?
Anybody can create a meme, but too many people get too much of their “information” from them.
I mean, ok but I’m not really sure what you mean still. Who are you referring to? I mean it could be many people I suppose, but it usually depends on the memes they’re consuming.
lets be honest, people who need a large gender affirming car are fun to laugh at.
Not as laughable as the assumption that “needing a large gender affirming car” was the actual reason someone bought a car, without knowing anything about them except that they’re male. Maybe that proves psychic powers are real too!
way to many massive trucks look like they never touched actually work and are used for commute.
no need for that, and truck owners like them because they are manly, so basically gender affirming cars
need a large gender affirming car
???
This is a projection of your own brainrot sexism, nothing more.
Don’t try to make it sound like you ever mocked a woman for having a large car, either, you’re not fooling anyone with “people”, lol.
oh no, I offended a conservative, the most easily offended demographic.
why don’t you go listen to some podcasts and cry about it
You said something stupid, and it was identified as such. That’s not being offended.
Though the fact that you had to assume several things about me personally to rationalize the way you behave, as your ego is apparently just too fragile to conceive of the possibility that YTA, says a lot, and makes me wonder if you’re available in IMAX.
if the problem is that men have loneliness issues i have a solution.
it’s men, more than one, become friends.
is there a issue with modern social alienation caused by individual atomisation? yes.
should we focus on it? yes
does it mean that women owe them sex? fuck no,
i think its more than just women
Dude I’m lonely because I’m a hypersexual libido chameleon with a long term partner who has a pandas sex drive.
If you like football and your best friend doesn’t like football, what do you do? You beg your best friend to play football… but if they really don’t like football or it is just a “once in a while thing” what you do? Probably find another friend or group of friends that like football. Your best friend likely stays your best friend but now you are happy, your best friend is not annoyed by you asking playing football and you have new friends
Of course you don’t hide or lie to your best friend on what you do and when… otherwise they would be (rightfully) upset but if you share and they are mad that you want to have new friends it’s on them to be unreasonable.
Well here Ethical non monogamy in a nutshell in a context where it is socially acceptable 🤷♂️
Yes… It’s because of the few loud-mouthed, salty, misogynists that men are generally lonely.
Maybe if this wasn’t the attitude towards men all the time, there’d be less young boys listening to twats like Andrew Tate.
Or maybe if there were less young boys listening to Andrew Tate there wouldn’t be that attitude towards men?
You can keep digging the trenches if you want. Why do you want to alienate people for the sake of it?
I actually do not alienate, but I do criticize when necessary.
I have a close relative who took the red pill and is all in on the manosphere. Sometimes he sends me, and I’m not even kidding, 30 messages in a day about all the manosphere content he watches; but we still hang out and talk. I don’t comment on everything he sends me if it is something we have already debated over. If it is something different or something I find to be egregious, I do call him out on it.
To be fair, some days are harder than others to hear his bullshit, and I take a break and mute his messages for a while. I feel overall I still value him as a person and it is important to interact with him. However, I can also empathize with those that want nothing to do with someone who holds those opinions.
Andrew Tate is so successful because there already existed the conditions to radicalise young people for quite some time.
Cult leaders or radical leaders don’t have a platform if everyone is just fine. No-one in a healthy environment wakes up in the morning and decides “let’s start some hateful shit, because it’s just so much fun!”
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