- cross-posted to:
- fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- cross-posted to:
- fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com
This reddit post likely has tens if not hundreds of thousands of views, look at the top comment.
Lemmy is losing so many potential new users because the UX sucks for the vast majority of people.
What can we do?
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it feels like old reddit
Wait, when did that become a bad thing? I exclusively browsed old.reddit.com because the new layout is a fucking abomination.
That’s the feature! Not a bug.
The new reddit design sucks and always has, other than dark mode.
Boost feels a lot like rif which I was using and which shutdown made me switch to lemmy.
How old are you?
Greenleaf is pretty massively exaggerating about the extent of defederation, as only a handful ever get defederated regularly, certainly not enough to call it ‘wars’.
As for UX, there’s definitely room for lots of improvements, especially in making it easier to explore another instances local communities from within your own insinstance without explicitly subbing to them all or using lemmyverse.net.
But I don’t think the very concept of different instances is truly a barrier or bad UX, that other user is just giving lazy excuses for not switching away from Reddit.
If that was a legitimate issue, MMO’s (which also often have servers the player needs to choose) wouldn’t have the userbase they do. Nor would Email have taken off.
Even if Lemmy was one big simple centralized server, that user would just come up with another reason they couldn’t switch.
“Oh, it’s too small, my niche communities aren’t there”
“The UI isn’t as nice”
“The mod tools aren’t as good”
Etc.
If that was a legitimate issue, MMO’s (which also often have servers the player needs to choose) wouldn’t have the userbase they do. Nor would Email have taken off.
But in an MMO, you still get the same content no matter what server you choose. Over here, it directly impacts what content you can interact with based on (de)federation.
If you joined a German-speaking WoW server as a non-speaking German, the experience was going to be subpar
Yes, and if you join a German-speaking instance as a non-German speaking user, the experience will also be subpar. Hence I talked about content, not language.
I just remembered that WoW nowadays offers a lot of different experiences: Classic, Seasons of Mastery, Retail, etc.
And people get different experiences based on the server they pick.
I’m on three different instances and the sort by All-hot feed is nearly identical.
I’m not on Beehaw or Hexbear, but those instances make it pretty well known they block a lot of other instances.
eh, back when the “exodus” was happening it felt like every second post is about defederation. Nowadays you don’t hear much about it anymore, but if you only looked back then I see how you could come to that conclusion.
I specifically remember looking up tables of who defederates from who and what instances allow NSFW or downvoting because this was an issue among some of the top instances back then.
I ended up making 4 different accounts over 2 months until I landed on a server I’m happy with. That will never be acceptable to any normal user.
Every time someone brings up these issues, people here downplay them like you are doing it right now and nothing is ever done about it.
I looked this up when joining a month ago because I saw hella posts on it and joining world to not see the piracy community didnt help
Honestly, joining a community just for the type of content they have or what they filter is useless. Best approach for me is to have access to everything and then filter what you don’t like by yourself.
This is why email never caught on. Who wants to choose between Gmail, Yahoo, MSN, Proton, and Comcast? A successful email service would be one where you can only communicate with users of the same email service. /s
People these days look weird at you if don’t use Gmail so you can’t see their Google Calendar invite or some other thing that only works with Google… People are literally pushing tech monopolies.
I still see lots of different emails out there, outlook/hotmail is still huge, yahoo occasionally, icloud in the US.
Among my techy friend circle all of us have either our own self hosted mail, a ‘privacy’ company email, or something in the middle.
All to say, I don’t think it’s that uphill of a battle for the very large percentage of Internet users to accept the way federation works.
I’m a student and don’t know anyone who doesn’t use Gmail here… Guess that’s the result of Google dominating education.
At what level? I get a student email from my college (outlook based) as do the professors, though communication is primarily through Canvas. So that’s what I see most often in that context.
I think a lot of people have Gmail incidentally for things like YouTube and other Google account stuff, very few people know you can even bring your own mail.
That was Aol.
Except everyone just uses gmail now
It’s very common, but in Australia at least, not ubiquitous.
And obviously businesses mostly do not
Most businesses also use outlook or gmail
This is fair, however, not ubiquitous and all their servers are expected to place nice with others.
Thank god email is federated, and not locked down to a particular company
Strawman
It’s the same thing.
Email even has its own version of federation and de federation in dkim.
The only difference is that you’re oftentimes not given access to an email address from your internet provider by default anymore so you’re not automatically joined into the system.
People balking at choosing a server are not showing you a bad user experience, they’re showing that they don’t really want to be part of a reddit alternative.
And the broader lemmy/activitypub/whatever needs to figure out if it wants to be like beehaw and hexbear and abandon the shape of reddit or if it wants to duplicate it and try to compete with reddit.
Email is well established and has incredible UX.
Email wasn’t competing with a well established centralised version of Email with a vastly superior UX when it was trying to gain users.
Lemmy doesn’t exist in a vacuum
Using email is the worst experience in the world. There’s no security, no standard for quotes, no delivery guarantee, a patchwork of attachment deliverability guidelines and you have to understand things like bcc in order to not commit bizarre faux-pas all the time.
Email sucks and I can’t believe a person who wants to have a conversation about ux would seriously hold it up as a positive example.
Email literally replaced messaging held in shared files between time users of mainframes. It replaced the most centralized system imaginable which had a ux that required no additional understanding or training of a mainframe user. Twenty years after its inception, major universities still had to have special training classes to make sure students and faculty could use email.
The problem of people not joining lemmy/activitypub isn’t the ux of choosing a server. The problem is no one wants to leave reddit enough to do so. Lemmy doesn’t offer anything except possibly the same experience as being on some idealized version of reddit so why would users flock to it?
A better approach would be try to be a better platform than reddit like reddit was to digg, like digg was to slashdot etc. that’s what hexbear and beehaw do.
At no point has Gmail ever said “we’re no longer allowing you to send/receive emails to/from Hotmail” or has Yahoo said “we’re maintained by a single volunteer who because of real life stuff can no longer continue so we’re discontinuing our email service.”
But this literally happens with instances all the time.
For the majority of commenters: UX is not UI.
The poor UX experience is the research a person has to do before they can even participate. You need to have a basic understanding of how the network works, and then you have to shop around for a server.
It’s enough friction to prevent people from on-boarding and that’s not good for a platform that needs people to be valuable.
Wait wait wait… This implies people like new reddit… That shit makes my eyes bleed wtf
Well I do like new Reddit. It has a dark mode and works well with different screen/window sizes. Sadly it’s slow and equires JS to load the content (makes it slow).
Imo Lemmy web is most of the good parts of old Reddit and some of good parts of new Reddit. Though it’s not the best UI. My favorite UI for Reddit is Redlib [1]. It’s fast, works well on desktop and mobile, and looks great imo.
I like new reddit. It works well, I just wish I could keep it the same as it is. I HATE Lemmy desktop UI and nearly went back to Reddit because of it. Voyager for mobile and photon for desktop. Honestly photon for both might be better but I’m apparently the 1% of people on Lemmy that actually prefer an app over a website 🤷♀️
Unless we fix the UX problems in Lemmy, a Bluesky-like alternative of reddit is going to pop up, and overtake Lemmy, like what happened with Mastadon
Text-based forums are a niche. The vast majority of the population doesn’t like that format. There’s a reason no Bluesky has emerged, the appeal is just not there.
About Bluesky, there was an app that allowed “Reddit view” (so threads with votes). Can’t find it back right now, the search mostly show Flashes, the Instagram alternative, which probably reflects the larger interest for that type of format.
The web ui has this option now. Although you can’t collapse threads so it’s still pretty hard to navigate
If anything the success or the Twitter ui shows you don’t always need a good UX to succeed
Serious question here: what is the bad ux experience of lemmy compared to reddit? (except choosing an instance in the beginning, I get that this might turn off a lot of people)
Easy fix, if it isnt federated I give them a one star and talk about how im tired of ads and corporate influence in my discussion forums so id rather use the threadiverse, prob does nothing but if it gets even one person to google and switch it was worth the 5 seconds it took to type
I did this for a couples posts that popped up on redditalrs that werent lemmy, they were definitelty alread netuered and ready for ads, worse than reddit
Using Boost for Lemmy and it’s almost like I never switched.
This 100%. And there are other former-reddit-3rd party apps as well afaik
Yea but imo that’s part of the problem. I use sync because it makes it easy, but I’ve tried to figure out how to access lemmy on desktop and it’s non-trivial (I still haven’t bothered to figure it out, I’ve given up multiple times)
For the android users : https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rubenmayayo.lemmy
Edit: ohhh, this may be better than Sync…
Reddit being popular is keeping the majority of people away from Lemmy.
When you get right down to it: people don’t care that Reddit is selling their information, that the site itself is a piece of garbage, that running the site requires a bunch of no-life weirdos whose numbers will only increase going forward and whose power will likewise, or that the design actively encourages bots to the point of disincentivizing actual human beings from using it.
They want their memes, they want their news, they want their niche little interest subs and they want their porn. The simple fact is that lemmy is a smaller version of Reddit with fewer options and to the majority of people who don’t care about their data or the objectively dogshit running of the site, there is no reason to cross over to Lemmy.
Until Reddit takes a Musk-type turn into being totally unuseable, lemmy will only see a trickle of users who are burned by Reddit.
Aren’t you guys sick of forced infinite growth in every aspect of our collective existence? The Fediverse is not shareholder owned, we don’t have to be slaves to The Red Line That Must Go Up. Reddit went to shit when it was aggresively mainstreamed, I don’t want it to happen to lemmy as well.
Reddit ux is also ass. Only difference between reddit and lemmy is that the federation bit is extremely confusing and not intuitive.
Has software usage really gotten to the point where the average person can’t handle being given a choice about anything? Where it’s just too much effort to do anything more than mindlessly click on whatever is presented to them? 🤦
Don’t over think it, the people who want to be here will be.
Hard disagree. The entire point of Lemmy is to move away from Corporate run, Billionaire run, Millionaire run, social media (which Reddit is). Without attracting new users Lemmy will almost certainly perish. It’s goal should be a low bar to onboard new social media users coming from places like Reddit, Facebook, X.
Saying “Not our problem” is a woefully shortsighted.
Hard disagree. The entire point of Lemmy is to move away from Corporate run, Billionaire run, Millionaire run, social media
Lemmy is a protocol for networking individual privately hosted social media instances. It is not a panacea for corporate control of social media infrastructure. You’re still hosting these sites on AWS / Azure / some other large corporately controlled private hardware setup. You’re still securing the URL from a private DNS. You’re still paying for these sites out of the surplus of a handful of wealth(ier) patrons and their friendly donors (or ending up like Hexbear.net, with a domain name up for grabs because it was mismanaged by part time broke amateurs).
Saying “Not our problem” is a woefully shortsighted.
There’s not a lot we can do about it individually. I would argue that the fractured - often openly hostile - intra-instance infighting on Lemmy feeds directly into OP’s image’s “this is too weird and scary” attitude.
If popping into the Fediverse and just picking a Lemmy instance was as straightforward as selecting “Communities I’m interested in” on other bigger social media feeds, the onboarding would be smoother. But if you poke around and see people going whole hog frothing at the mouth “Everyone on <instance>.<whatever> is morally degenerate and has ruined the community at large!!!” reactionary in between instances, that’s an immediate turn off that I don’t think anyone within the Lemmy network knows how to deal with.
Its the same intra-channel fighting we saw on Reddit, just ported into a more decentralized network. And it neglects the fundamentals of modern web hosting (we’re all at the mercy of the IANA / Cloudflare, etc / the major hosting companies).
Lemmy is, itself, a shortsighted patch on a much larger and scarier problem. The instance infighting only reveals how shortsighted.
First off, there’s nothing we can do about moving away from larger hosting Corporations, not with the technology we currently have. If we want to reach a national or international audience, we need infrastructure, and that has to come from somewhere; a business model makes sense. If you’re hosting to a small community, you’d be able to get away with 1 selfhost, but to scale you’d need redundancies and bandwidth. The best choice we can make is the companies we would rather do business with. At this point, I’m definitely favoring Cloudflare and Azure (in that order) over AWS.
I would argue that the fractured - often openly hostile - intra-instance infighting on Lemmy feeds directly into OP’s image’s “this is too weird and scary” attitude.
I see this in a lot of comments about this so while I don’t want to downplay the severity of this, I’ve personally never see instance in-fighting. Maybe it’s the things I’m subscribed to, idk, but I usually visit both my local and all just to see what’s going on. The Hexbear domain being sold is probably one of the first times I’ve run across discussions about other instances. Also, their domain being sold is lowkey hilarious. That was a problem as old as the internet (losing a domain). As we move to decentralization and privatization/ownership of data that’s going to continue to be a thing I think.
Its the same intra-channel fighting we saw on Reddit,
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the intra-channel fighting - is it just disagreeable people commenting, or is it like “This community is better than that” or “This instance is better than that”? I often see discussions on Reddit, arguing, bad faith actors, but I wouldn’t classify that as in-channel-fighting. idk.
There’s not a lot we can do about it individually.
Complain. JoinLemmy is Open Source on Github. If you have ideas - share them. If you take a look through their issues and feel like adding in your 2 cents, go for it.
If a small, one time pop-up designed to solve your problem makes you give up on solving your problem then you were never going to solve that problem.
Unpopular opinion maybe but I like Lemmy and lemmy users and I’m glad that we’re a bit different from Reddit. At least in my experience it feels a bit different.
I was on Sync for Reddit before going here, and checked out Lemmy as the devs switched platform. So the joke’s on them, my UX is basically identical.
That said, sucks that people shy away because of complexity.
The UX for both Voyager and Sync seem really good. I’ve tried it out on a device, you can scroll before logging in, and when you try to create an account there aren’t loops to jump through and a default instance is pre-selected
Voyager is just Apollo for Lemmy is why I use it
Unfortunately, Sync for Lemmy is basically dead. Hasn’t been updated in nearly a year. I’m currently looking for a good alternative
Thanks for the heads up, seems like it might stop functioning properly in the future according to posts on the Sync community. Guess I’ll look around for some alternative in case that happens.
I think a big problem is a lot of the explainers for new users, at least the ones that were around back when I first joined Mastodon, were or are absolute dog shit. They were all existential explanations rather than practical ones. I was trying to figure out which instance to join, and why one might be better for me than another, and every explainer I saw was basically a variation on, “iT’s JuSt LikE EmAiL. wHy Is tHaT hArD? sToP bEiNg So sTuPid, DuMmY.” None of them really explained the user experience, and how different instances might affect it, let alone the existence of the local and global feeds and how your instance choice affects those. It was like asking someone how to use chopsticks and them telling you, “It’s easy. Just put food in your mouth with them. Works just like a fork.”
Technically true, but it omits some pretty crucial information.
Once you’re into it and have the lay of the land, it seems really simple in retrospect. But if you’re coming in cold with no idea how any of it works, and the only help you get is some dickhead shouting, “EmAiL! iT’s LiKe EmAiL!” then the learning curve seems a lot steeper than it actually is.
👏👏👏 Very well said!
None of them really explained the user experience, and how different instances might affect it, let alone the existence of the local and global feeds and how your instance choice affects those
I almost never use the local feeds. Technically my instance choice does affect them, but I could switch to any other random Lemmy instance and the experience would be 99.99% the same for me.
To me it’s not forks vs. chopsticks, it’s someone looking at a fork with 3 tines instead of 4 and getting paralyzed not being able to decide between the two.
https://old.lemmy.world/ looks just like reddit. It’s not the UI. It’s network effect and there’s not a lot to be done.
People are still on Twitter while the owner makes Nazi salutes and Bluesky is a 1:1 replacement feature-wise with a modern interface. People just don’t like to move.
The vast majority of users don’t like the old.reddit view, else reddit would have that as default.
Are you suggesting that businesses only change things based on what their users want? Because that’s obviously nonsense. Enshitification finds a way regardless of what the consumer wants.
Two things can be true at the same time.
Yes reddit doesn’t care about their users.
But also the old reddit is worse for the vast majority of people
I have friends who still only use old.reddit and refuse to switch to new UI.
Would they be interested in Lemmy? Them using old.reddit shows that they would probably like it here
I already tried getting them on. Maybe https://old.lemmy.world/ can help.
How old are those friends of yours?
I mean… old (it’s in the name). Does it matter? What’s your point?
