This is about the most recent version of LibreOffice on Windows 10. I can’t speak for other versions.
My daughter worked hard on her social studies essay. I type things in for her because she’s a really bad typist, but she tells me what to write… but I didn’t remember to manually save her social studies essay yesterday, and for some reason the ThinkPad rebooted, LibreOffice crashed and we lost the whole thing… because autosave was not automatically on when I installed it.
No, recovery didn’t work. We just got a blank file.
I rewrote it for her based on the information we had and what I remembered and tried to make it sound like what a 13-year-old would write because it was basically my fault and she did do the work. I did have her sit with me as I wrote it in case she didn’t like something I wrote, but it was sort of cheating. I’m okay with that cheating since I know she worked hard on it.
First, though, I went into the settings and turned on autosave.
I like LibreOffice, but why the hell is that not on automatically? Honestly, I don’t really understand why someone wouldn’t want their documents autosaved, but I’m pretty sure most people would want that.
This isn’t fucking 1993. I shouldn’t have to remember to save a document anymore and it shouldn’t be lost forever because of it.
Like I said, I like LibreOffice. I don’t really want to trust documents to Microsoft or Google. But this was really annoying.
Us older folks automatically hit save every few minutes. But not saving days worth of work is asking for trouble.
I’m feeling old right now, thx
I even impulsively hit Ctrl+S when writing comments on Lemmy once in a while
You have to hit Ctrl+S 3 or 4 times in a row, just in case too.
This is how I play Pokemon yellow. Save game? Better save again just in case.
I sometimes ctrl+S on my web browser.
So did you want this as an .htm archive or what)
I was going to say, it was absolutely drilled into our heads to save after every paragraph.
My high school teacher would occasionally flip the breaker for the computers in the school computer lab just to give those of us with bad saving habits a hard reminder.Your teacher would probably get raked over the coals for traumatizing the kids if she did that now
Meh, only the Libreoffice kids
Nah more for corrupting some of the computers storage drives.
If only computers could automate repetitive tasks. Oh, well.
They can. Just have to turn the autosave on. Better to manually save still just in case
If only people understood the tradeoffs with automation
I still do this regularly while using Google docs even though I don’t think it has any effect.
I am an older folk. I grew up with an Apple II. I just have gotten used to autosave being on automatically in pretty much every word processor I’ve used since probably the mid-1990s. I just can’t imagine why they decided to not have it on when you install it.
I think your memory might be failing on this, because we’re about the same age and autosave wasn’t really a common feature in the 90s. MacOS didn’t introduce autosave until OSX Lion in 2010, and Microsoft’s auto-recover (which was their only feature even close to autosave until office365) wasn’t introduced until the 2000s and didn’t work properly until 2007.
Fair. I could very well be misremembering. I don’t have the greatest memory.
I don’t have the greatest memory.
You should have hit Ctrl + S more throughout life.
If only it were that easy.
It does for me, but I’m autistic.
I can literally decide “I’m gonna remember this thing” and then push it into my brain in a way that I know it’ll be there forever.
It happens to me more and more these days as well.
Never assume something works until you’ve verified it. And even then assume it’ll break some time
I mean, yes, but also it’s a fair assumption to make that autosave would either be on or the fact that it was off would be communicated.
A fair assumption maybe, but not a safe one.
What word processors? Even Microsoft office doesn’t have autosave on by default unless you’re working off of One Drive/Share Point online.
Why would you switch to different software and assume it works the same as another?
Yep, my thoughts exactly… my company doesn’t want us to use OneDrive because of some security fears, so none of our work has autosave. Just because it’s 2024 doesn’t mean everything has autosave. Even working in a browser doesn’t always have autosave, I use some online programs daily that you have to remember to Ctrl + S.
the only time i ever lost a paper/document (at 13, for social studies), was on an apple IIc. then i rewrote it. i cried A LOT.
it has never happened since, and writing is a significant part of my job. i learned the hard way.
I just can’t imagine why they decided to not have it on when you install it.
Different generational audiences expect different UX about their software, as this topic has aptly shown.
I’m sure there’s a bunch of people who would be pissed off at the fact that they only want to control when a save happens (by default), and not the app.
Personally I would expect it to be on automatically (normal modern UX), but also after I’ve written big blocks of very important text I’d do a manual save, as I don’t know where in the interval cycle between automatic saves I would be at (when’s the next autosave happening). Best of both worlds, basically.
Finally, only because I’m talking to you right now, as far as you and your child goes, only you as their parent knows what’s best for them.
Take heart that if you’re trying, you’re already halfway there, as many parents don’t even bother.
And don’t take the negative downloading you’re getting on this topic as a criticism of your parenting skills, aholes on the Internet trying to keep the world exactly how they expect it to be from way back when, and are so hung up on responsibility to a fault, are not the best sources for knowledge on how well or poorly you’re doing as a parent.
I am an older folk. I grew up with an Apple II.
I as well. Still have fun memories of loading Choplifter into my Apple via a cassette tape recorder.
Thanks much.
Also, I’m going to have to go play Choplifter now!
Few minutes? For me its every few seconds
I’m barely an adult and I do this. I think it’s less your age, and more the type of programs you tend to use—ei. programs where you may not want things auto saved, for me game engine, but there’s plenty of examples.
“Us” don’t do anything, but we do.
Everyone learns compulsive ctrl-s eventually.
I was going to say we’ve all lost an essay before we learned to routinely save the document. :)
Yep. Unfortunate though this is, it’s an important lesson for OP and their kiddo.
Save early and save often.
The lesson for the kiddo is more complex and harder to learn: letting daddy do stuff for you doesn’t always mean it’ll be better.
Side note : You say she’s a bad typist so you type it for her. But how exactly is she going to learn how to type then?
Maybe just let her do things poorly and learn
As I told someone else, I let her do it when it isn’t a long essay. With an essay, it would literally take hours.
With an essay, it would literally take hours.
Ignoring that this would get faster with the practise of typing it themselves:
How quickly are people writing essays these days? I’m a decently fast typer and it always took me a couple of hours to write a whole essay at that age. Once I was a few years older and was diligent in drafting a really good outline first I’d maybe get it to under a hour at the computer, but the speed of typing was never the bottleneck.
All it takes is a few minutes to give chatgpt a good prompt and the copy and casting to the text document. 🧐
Again, it can take her a full minute to type a sentence. She is an incredibly slow typist. This is really the first big essay she’s ever had to write and I wanted her to think about what she wanted to say, not hunt and peck for ages.
Look, maybe you don’t have kids. Maybe your kids are good typists. My kid has just started down this road of writing real essays and I have decided that typing speed is far less important than critical thinking when it comes to her education. You are free to make your own parenting decisions, but I would appreciate you not questioning mine, especially when you are not able to see the full picture when you don’t actually know either me or my child.
Critical thinking is a high level skill. High level skills must be built on top of low level skills, and people learn thing better when they write themselves. The mechanics of putting the words to paper are an important part of the WRITING process.
As a side note, typing well isn’t something that can easily be learned by simply typing more. If her typing is a concern (and it may well be since she’ll be typing much more in college), it may be helpful to search for some typing courses. My impression is that there are some free online ones, but I don’t remember any off the top of my head.
I never truly learned to type, though I had a few weeks instruction in school, and did a few levels of Mario Teaches Typing when I was a kid. None of it really stuck, and typing remains an exercise in hand-eye coordination for me. I topped out at around 70-80 WPM if I’m composing rather than copying, but that’s been good enough for a lifetime of office jobs, and certainly for writing school essays. There is definitely a lower ceiling if you don’t get proper instruction, but simple practice is still helpful.
Perhaps, but that’s a relatively spectacular case. If my memory serves me correctly, the average typing speed is around 40 wpm. And sure, that kind of speed can get the job done but it definitely won’t be a good time. My elementary school was pretty forward-thinking in this respect. They signed us up for computer literacy and typing courses that would last for multiple years that we would do in computer class. I think everyone in my class was hitting at least 50 wpm by middle school. I was typing a solid 70 wpm.
Anyways, I think there are certain aspects of typing where having guidance could really help. I know people who chicken-peck because that’s just how they’ve always done it and they’ve never broken that habit.
Then let it take hours. That’s how you learn. She’s not going to learn to remember to save regularly if you just sweep the mistake under the rug and do the heavy lifting for her the second time around.
When I was learning Dvorak, I decided I would use it all the time. Even if it took me hours to write an essay. I now type 120 wpm. Practice works.
The only way I learned how to type growing up was from instant messaging my friends. All of those ridiculous typing programs didn’t help. One random thing that might help is a different keyboard, or, different profile keycaps!
I love me some mechanical keyboards and I like the tactile feedback from “brown” switches. The last one I built I found out about the wonderful world of keycaps, specifically keycap profiles. I fell in love with MT3s as they are a little “cupped”. My fingers sort of fall into the scoops and get enough tactile feedback to stay on the key and they just feel nice. I haven’t looked at cheaper membrane keyboards in years, but I remember you could pull off the keycaps and put different ones on those, but I have no idea how they are now.
If you are interested in mechanical keyboards, you can usually buy a sample kit that has all of the different switches and you may be able to find something similar for keycaps.
I guess what I am trying to say is a different keyboard, or even keycaps, may help her learn. Though I do realize that this stuff is expensive too. As someone who is on a keyboard everyday, it became a tool to invest in.
No need to go crazy with the first one. That first step from laptop keyboard or membrane pack-in is the biggest jump you’ll ever make in typing experience. a brown-switch gamer board with the RBG turned off and some cheap Amazon “CSA” style keycaps might be all you’d ever need. Of course, even that type of thinking can lead to certain… rabbit holes.
Just want to say, what a good parent for actually giving your child a hand in school work. The work load has become so insane for children.
Thank you, although in my case, it’s required. My daughter is in online school. It’s a public school run by the state, not a private school, so she has real classes with real licensed teachers via live videoconference and the assignments are graded by the teachers. They require a parent to be a ‘learning coach.’ Mostly to keep the kid on track.
But I also know my daughter has very little patience for bullshit, as I did I when I was her age, so when they say things like “to learn about biological cells, draw a picture of an imaginary factory and show the different parts of the factory and label how they work” (an actual assignment) and it isn’t being graded, it’s just busywork, I tell her we can skip it. I wish I had someone who let me skip that nonsense. Like you said, the workload, or in this case the expected workload is insane. And most of it isn’t conducive to learning. Drawing an imaginary factory- and they wanted kids to do this before teaching them the parts of the cell- isn’t going to help you learn what mitochondria are.
Meanwhile, she’s getting better grades than she did when she was in public school. It’s working out pretty well.
Drawing an imaginary factory- and they wanted kids to do this before teaching them the parts of the cell- isn’t going to help you learn what mitochondria are.
That sounds like it’s an exercise meant to get the kids thinking about a multi-faceted system existing inside a single structure, with parts that are interconnected but distinct, and will lead into a common metaphor teachers use to teach about biological cells. Not being graded means they’re not judging the kids on what they know or don’t, but want to evaluate where they are with this sort of thinking and figure out what they will focus on. Also, your kid may be smart and already know where they’re going with this, but others in the class may not. If she does, she could probably knock that out in fifteen minutes. Even if you decide that she doesn’t need to do it, I don’t think it’s stupid busy work, at least not necessarily.
Some teachers are dumb; we need too many of them and pay them too little for each and every one to be a superstar. The ones coming up with curricula and lesson plans usually aren’t, though.
Oh that sounds like a much better situation. I only found out public online schools were an option in my second to last year of high school, when the bullshit work load had already been waning. Doing it mostly online now for college and it’s so much less stressful. Wish you both luck. 🤞
The most mildly infuriating thing about this post is a parent not letting a child do their own work because they would do it slowly. I’ve read all the responses, clearly OP is not willing to reflect on what others are telling him. I just feel sorry for the child whose peers are getting practice in basic life skills that she won’t have the opportunity to because her dad thinks he knows better than her teachers and the curriculum. His own ego is so wrapped up in his child writing a good essay and showing ‘critical thinking’ that he’s not letting her do her own work. He admits to cheating. Just a wretched situation that I hope turns around when another adult steps in or his child gets old enough to tell him to back off.
Never trust autosave. Everything from notepad to Visual Studio gets the Ctrl+S treatment when something is updated.
Is that because of bugs, or shitty software that you don’t trust autosave? Isn’t it likely that ctrl-s is affected by the same problem and regardless of how compulsively you press the combo, it does in fact nothing?
Note that OPs instance simply had autosave disabled, not really a trust issue
While I can understand you wanting autosave on in your situation, I much prefer autosave off because I often open files to see what is in them and do not want to automatically modify them just because I accidentally hit a key and delete it. Automatically changing stuff is a choice you should have to make, not a feature that I have to race to disable.
What freaks me out is when I open a file, make no changes, go to close it, and I get “Do you want to save the changes you made?”
Yes. Like many here, I’ve learned to hit save A LOT. But I also want to decide when the time is right. Whether I’m writing a paper, coding, photo retouching, whatever, I flail around and experiment while working. I want to lock in my changes when I’m happy with the progress. If something goes awry I’d rather resume at the last manual save than some other weird thing I did afterwards.
Unless she is has some sort of disability, you typing for her just seems like enablement.
But she’s bad at it, see
Yeah and practice is useless. Everyone knows you’re either born with it or not
3 take aways from this that I hope you’ll get:
- Learn to save often. Sometimes that means 5x in a row just to be sure.
- Never just assume the software is going to save you from yourself. Its OK to trust software, but you gotta make sure it does what you expect it to do. In this case, that means either checking those settings when you start out, or making sure the file exists on disk.
- Invest in some typing games for your kid so they learn how to type properly and can do their own work! I understand wanting to help your kid succeed, but you can’t do that in the long term without crippling their development.
On the other hand… consider if your cat had walked over the keyboard before it rebooted and replaced it all with
hhhhgggggggggggggggggggghgfbefore it auto saved and replaced the document. Would you still be an advocate for auto save?It sucks to lose work, but this is clearly a user error.
To be fair, you could just delete the faulty part or click on Undo, and just save again.
Auto-save can usually create a new save with a timestamp, every time it saves. It´s called incremental auto-saves.
I’ve never seen this feature
I don’t have a cat and we did this out at a cafe, so yes, I would still be an advocate for it. I think that most people do not have that issue even if they have a cat.
It sucks to lose work, but this is clearly a user error.
Didn’t wanna say it but yeah, 100%.
Also I was kinda suspicious of the simultaneous claim that the PC randomly restarted and LO crashed. And there’s no recovery file. But that’s probably just me. For all the faults Windows has, failing to catch programs with unsaved work when restarting isn’t one of them I’ve ever experienced.
This is the most classic case of “safety feature makes people unsafe” I’ve ever seen.
This kind of thing didn’t happen before auto save, because everyone knew to save.
Auto save exists because everyone forgot to save sometimes.
You’re absolutely right. I got used to the convenience and got out of the habit of it.
But there are other situations that manually saving wouldn’t be solved and auto saving does.
Like it’s easier to lose data if something happens before you manually save it. With auto saving that’s more difficult as it is auto saving every x time or x changes. Yeah you could do that manually… every x minutes/work but it’s something that clearly should be automated.
The main issue here was assuming something has a feature and that it has it enabled without checking if it does.
CTRL+S CTRL+S CTRL+S CTRL+S CTRL+S
Shit, did I save yet?
CTRL+S CTRL+S CTRL+S
I don’t fuck around, that’s how I play my games too!
I use Office 365 for work and I still CTRL+S. Something learned the hard way is hard to let go of lol
quicksave
Bound quicksave to the M4 button, same as F5/refresh. I’ll just spam it at all times, in all apps and games.
The responses have classic “I run Arch” energy. It’s never the fault of the software. It’s always the fault of the user. Ignore them. This is terrible UX and should be criticised. She did absolutely nothing wrong.
Seriously, it’s 2024. Everyone has to use technology now, so the software should reflect that. UX is probably one of the big barriers to widespread FOSS adoption.
No worries LibreOffice has ancestry going back to CP/M (via StarOffice) so it’s on the DOS side of things: Of course it’s the fault of the software, it’s not a Unix native program.
How? How is this terrible? Why should autosave be expected? I absolutely do not like autosave. No thanks. It is an unusual behaviour, why would anyone expect it to do this?
That said, it is really weird that it didn’t recover. I have never hard Libre office not recover from a computer outage or even a forced shutdown. That is unexpected.
You’re weird. Autosave is the norm in 2024. It’s not unusual at all, and helps in the most important of use cases; accidental non-saving. It was the norm a decade ago.
You’re weird. Autosave is the norm in 2024
I do support challenging the software design before blaming the user, but I feel like I’m being thrown through a bit of a loop here. Autosave, while not unusual, is still the minority behaviour - surely?
I’m checking through tools I have installed and can’t find much that autosaves - even Word (tested editing a local file) doesn’t seem to autosave as far as I can tell. And, to be fair to the software, I often don’t want to overwrite the disk copy automatically (though there are some “best of both worlds” approaches, like with VSCode).
I would have sworn that autosave was enabled by default in absolutely every software that has anything to save since like the 2000s, you’re throwing me on a loop here.
As far as text editors actually, i feel like they may be constantly saving, particularly if they’re cloud-based. But i’ve been using LibreOffice for a while so i wouldn’t know. (and yes i did have to enable autosave)
I would have sworn that autosave was enabled by default in absolutely every software that has anything to save since like the 2000s
Possible that we’re thinking about different features? Like for Microsoft Word, if I save a file to disk, make an edit, then exit out without saving (hitting “cancel” when it asks if I want to save) the disk copy is left untouched. That’s how the most tools work as far as I’m aware. It does have crash recovery (which may or may not work better than LibreOffice’s crash recovery, no idea).
Some editing software will use a copy of your file as extended memory, so it is always caching to disk. That can be slow, so some don’t do it for small files. I am thinking of Linux tools like vi and vim.
No it isn’t.
And in the case of Word and Excel it only is enabled if you have One Drive, Office 365 subscription, or Sharepoint Online. And all of that started in 2023. Google Docs auto saves - which follows the pattern of needing to deal with state changes since the document is not local.
None of my local apps auto save. Some do auto recovery, but they are temp files until closed. This is not the norm in 2024.
What you refer to as auto recovery is what I mean as auto save. Even your email clients do it. I will concede if you can see the value of auto recovery.
Ok but what’s your argument against autosave? You haven’t made one?
Autosave has screwed me over many times. Not all changes I make need saving. Not all drives are always present during a save.
I have worked up what if scenarios and had it auto save, and now the document is missing the original.
I prefer to manage my own revisions.
Yea same here, I see autosave as a side effect. I want to be in control of my increments
Lol she didn’t do anything. It was the op doing his daughter’s work for her that didn’t save it.
That’s the most troubling part of this story, that the op doesn’t insist their child learn how to type. I’m wondering how much of their other work they do for her.
Libre office is open source, btw. If it’s so poorly designed op can go and fix it.
Whether or not OP can fix it hinges on much more than “if it’s so poorly designed”
People have said “I lost everything because of Microsoft Word.” “I lost everything because of Wordpad.” “I lost everything because of Notepad.” You guys probably blame schools for not teaching your kids how to laundry, taxes, or change a tire.
So in unrelated news I had to replace a keycap because… yeah.
This is user error. Everyone knows to save.
Not really, autosave has been a thing for so many years at this point
So has automatic braking in cars.
Many people still drive older cars due to costs and environmental factors, meanwhile there’s no real reason to use an old version of a word processing software unless you really want to due to nostalgic reasons. And automatic braking doesn’t even exist on every new car…
I agree and disagree at the same time.
I agree, people should learn how to use technology.
I disagree, technology should be easy to use./s
On the upside, doing the same essay again is so much easier and usually comes out way better.
Yes. If anything, if I were an english teacher, at some point I’d have my kids turning in the same essay four or five times, just to show them how good things can get when they remake them again and again.
