- cross-posted to:
- pcgaming@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- pcgaming@lemmy.ca
From the opinion piece:
Last year, I pointed out how many big publishers came crawlin’ back to Steam after trying their own things: EA, Activision, Microsoft. This year, for the first time ever, two Blizzard games released on Steam: Overwatch and Diablo 4.
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I know everyone loves Valve, but it feels super weird to be celebrating a monopoly so much and so ferociously. (I know Steam isn’t a technical monopoly. We don’t need to have that discussion)
Gaben is old, and he’s gonna retire. It’ll likely be a lot sooner than anyone here is comfortable with. When Valve gets sold, or even when gaben isn’t in total control anymore, things are going to start changing, and there isn’t going to be a healthy, diverse marketplace to soften that.
There is a very good chance that the PC platform will be a really horrible place because of the lack of consumer choice in which they can purchase and play games.
In an ideal world, if Gaben was a real saint, he would turn Steam into a foundation or steward-owned purpose organization before he retires, that can’t be sold.
Thank for the interesting read
Didn’t the Patagonia owner do something like that?
Yup. If you open the link they mention Patagonia. They also mention Signal, which I didn’t know was also like this.
Steams biggest competition isn’t another launcher, it’s piracy. Gabe is wise enough to know that, if the next guy to take over is a chode they’ll learn the hard way.
Absolutely. I have not pirated a single game since I got steam. Before that it was almost exclusively pirated games. no shops close by, and buying on mail order took FOREVER! and was very much hit or miss… And impossible to return.
I did buy most of the games that i enjoyed, and played a lot. Since i wanted the box on the shelf. but i still played the pirated version. since that was much easier then puling out the book and look at the 5th word on the 3rd paragraph on page 121 for the copy protection. :)
It’s absolutely weird and unhealthy to celebrate it.
Gaben is old, and he’s gonna retire. It’ll likely be a lot sooner than anyone here is comfortable with. When Valve gets sold, or even when gaben isn’t in total control anymore, things are going to start changing, and there isn’t going to be a healthy, diverse marketplace to soften that.
This is it. Look at history and every major company in the past 200 years. Once the shift happens, it all goes to hell. And yet people are still shouting about some “Steam Victory” like wtf?
Meh, I think there are some private companies that manage to remain vigilant in their purpose even as leaders change.
In my opinion, most problems happen the second a company goes public. So I’m just hoping that Valve never chooses to go public and is thus never legally beholden to shareholder interests.
I agree with all your points… but… IMHO some things keeping Steam honest are services like GoG and if course the High Seas, but more than that there’s the plethora of other entertainment options.
This isn’t housing, air, or water. A person can just not play if it’s too much hassle or too costly. If Steam or any given entertainment option isn’t worth using, people just won’t. There’s no shortage of things to do other than play games, much less use Steam for gaming.
I agree that we shouldn’t imagine Steam will never change, nor should we blindly worship or glorify Valve/GabeN. I just think that games and entertainment generally is an arena where market forces actually work to benefit the consumer.
Of course employment practices and company culture is a whole 'nother thing…
One day, Valve will be under different ownership, and we will regret the time we fought for their monopoly.
That will be a shame for already purchased Steam libraries, but because the PC is an open platform and their “monopoly” is drastically overstated, it might just be the opportunity for GOG to rise up. Or maybe even Epic, if it actually bothers doing better. Valve can’t, and won’t ever be able to completely control where people buy PC games.
You know, as opposed to consoles like Playstation, which, if you don’t like how they are doing business, you just gotta deal with it.
I wouldn’t call it fighting for a monopoly. It’s just that for the last decade people have been doing exactly what everyone keeps saying to do, voting with their wallet. Steam isn’t a clear market leader because people wanted it to be, it’s one because every competitor has not put in the effort to compete but rather chosen to be shitty towards the customer rather than be beneficial to the customer.
It is technically a monopoly, you don’t need 100% market share to be considered one otherwise Google wouldn’t be considered a monopoly but it is.
In the Epic trial, Google made some of the same arguments as those used to defend Steam, like the presence of competing stores or the claim that it wins people over by the quality of the product.
Epic’s expert made these relevant points:
Google impairs competition without preventing it entirely
Google’s conduct targets competition as it emerges
Google is dominant
And we know who won in the antitrust case. Let’s see what happens in Wolfire et al v. Valve.
Wowww this is crazy misleading.
The difference is that Google’s software is forced onto OEMs without them having any real choice. That Google makes them sign contracts forbidding other default app stores. That Google has secret back room deals with some app developers and not others waiving the store fee, giving them an unfair advantage.
Valve does none of that. Can you point me to valve forcing, say, Dell or HP to pre-install Steam and no other game stores? Or them not taking a cut for some games?
Valve’s actions do not have to copy those of Google for it to engage in anti-competitive behavior. Focus on the Steam-specific arguments deemed reasonable enough for the judge to allow the trial to go through, like those on the MFN, high profit margin related to the 30% fee, user reviews manipulation, and so forth.
I said pointing to the Google antitrust case and equating them is misleading, not that it’s impossible for Valve to engage in any anti-competitive behaviour.
And the reason why I said that is because they’re completely different and not even in the same stratosphere in terms of shady ongoings. Nor are they doing the same thing. The Google case has zero bearing on this one.
As for the 30% cut, that’s been deemed fine. See the Apple case and the Google case. Even in Google’s case, where Google lost, it wasn’t down to pricing.
And Valve would have an easier time justifying it too. They could point to their service being much more bandwidth intensive, and including things like friend systems, a messenger, voice chat, streaming, cloud saves, Linux compatibility layers, compatibility for controllers that the OS doesn’t natively support, matchmaking APIs, Steam overlay, custom control options for when the game doesn’t officially support it, etc.
It’s just fanboyism. Everyone shits on PS and Xbox users, but PC gamers weren’t privy to the fact that the PC master race trope was meant mockingly and kinda just ran with it. Now they stan a corporation.
I guess we’ll see how this shakes out in the coming years. God willing, not much will change.
Yep.
People fanboy over Steam endlessly without realizing that with time, it will turn to shit as well.
More competition is good, and maybe Epic is shit today but if their leadership changes then maybe it could actually significantly improve and surpass Steam.
But if it doesn’t exist, then if Steam turns to shit then you’re much more likely to just be stuck with shit.
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The only reason I support them as a monopoly is because they are the closest thing to an ethical/moral capitalist company around. They are proof positive that treating employees, customers, and vendors fairly can lead to an obscenely strong company with profit margins that the amoral assholes out there looking for every way to shaft everyone to make an extra penny can are envious of.
From what I understand discussing the issue with friends who run game studios and deal with Valve/Steam, the employees pretty much have his mindset from the bottom to the top of the org chart. He has been smart in who he hires and who is promoted so leadership is not a bunch of sniveling money grubbers who will sell out immediately when he retires. 🤞
Nothing lasts forever.
Plus, we have enough games. Shut it down, play old games lol
I know Steam isn’t a technical monopoly. We don’t need to have that discussion
That’s one way to swat away all criticism about the premise of your comment…
When Valve gets sold, or even when gaben isn’t in total control anymore, things are going to start changing, and there isn’t going to be a healthy, diverse marketplace to soften that.
Considering the fact that Steam is not a monopoly and alternate storefronts continue to exist (Microsoft will not stop selling games individually on their own store even if it’s just an afterthought to GamePass but it’s the same platform as GamePass), there will be alternatives to Steam if Valve turns anti-consumer. There is little actual loyalty among gamers. Just look at Blizzard: At one point their customer base was almost as die hard as Nintendo’s and it took only a couple of years to throw that away. (I noticed it when the audience actually booed at the Diablo Immortal reveal.)
I’ve been weaning myself off of Steam for years now.
I only use it at this point for games I’ve already bought and games that are exclusive to Steam, like TF2.
Anything else I just download for free.
So many viruses.
I’m not celebrating a monopoly, I’m celebrating a good platform for consumers. Steam likely knows that if it angers people its monopoly is ripe for a ton of regulation, at least in the European market where PC gaming is huge.
They’ve been hit with an anti trust lawsuit in Europe, lost and didn’t cooperate and instead paid some more.
They offer refunds because they got sued for it.
They’ve introduced more and more ways to monetize whales and to trigger people’s dopamine secretion to get them to buy more games.
Valve is still a company that aims to make profits, it’s not your friend.
Epic bought rocket league and promptly tanked it in favor of their stupid fortniteverse. Maybe steam keeps winning because they’re not actively screwing over their customers.
Or Pheonix Point, where Epic bought an kickstarter game that was funded under the promise of releasing on Steam, GOG and potentially other stores and promptly made it exclusive - and this was in the early days when their launcher/store was in a much worse state too.
Rocket League is such an easy slam dunk of a game. The mechanics are so good there should be a family of game modes (like Turbo Golf Racing) that surround the core game mode that have spawned entirely new genres of car games by now. Almost no other video game has a core gamefeel as locked in as Rocket League and honestly Epic should be ashamed Rocket League isnt a household name like minecraft by now.
Epic bought rocket league and promptly tanked it in favor of their stupid fortniteverse.
Sadly Valve is guilty of a similar thing. Valve bought Campo Santo and (at least that’s the public statement) the developers were free to work on whatever projects and chose HL Alyx instead of that new game after Firewatch. Game development gets cancelled all the time and perhaps the new game just wasn’t that good.
There must be more to success than that, because Valve likewise bought Campo Santo, the developer of Firewatch, and now their next game is all but canceled. These companies can’t help but focus on their big money makers at the expense of all else.
All I can find about their next game is called “In the Valley of Gods” which looks like it is still being developed. What game was cancelled? Also how is that the same as buying an IP then running it into the ground so their main IP can get a mildly popular game mode that will likely be forgotten about in a couple months? I’m already bored of rocket racing and I only installed it because a friend kept begging me to play fortnite zero build which I also don’t enjoy.
It is on indefinite hold. It is still being “developed” in the same way Valve won’t confirm or deny the existence or cancelation of Half-Life 2 Episode 3/Half Life 3, but articles I’ve read previously essentially confirm that no one has been working on it for years.
I’ll happily eat my words if the game does come out because Firewatch was a beautiful game that left me wanting more, but Valve’s internal development structure doesn’t really encourage passion projects.
but Valve’s internal development structure doesn’t really encourage passion projects.
Could you elaborate?
Not the person you’re replying to, but from what I’ve read before Valve is kind of notorious for this because they do encourage people to work on what they want. The problem with this is that it also means it’s hard to get support for your project. For example, in order to get Half-Life: Alyx pushed out, they had to suspend that policy of working only on things that make them happy.
Here’s a quote from the wiki article about HL: Alyx’s development:
Valve abandoned episodic development and made several failed attempts to develop further Half-Life projects. Walker blamed the lack of progress on Valve’s flat management structure, whereby employees decide what to work on themselves. He said the team eventually decided they would be happier if they worked together on a large project, even if it was not their preferred choice.
Here’s some additional info on how they work from an interview:
Robin Walker: We started in February of 2016, I think, with a small team, and we brought out a small prototype. Then people started to play that, understood what we were trying to do afterward, and started joining up. We had 80 people on the team when we were about midway through. The exact size of the team I wouldn’t be able to tell you. The way things work at Valve, people organically join once they’ve finished up what they were doing before, and if what you’re doing makes sense to them. So it was always full steam ahead, I guess, but not in the sense that all 80 people were there from day one.
Jane Ng: I joined the project last year, I think. People just sort of see that “Hey, this project’s getting pretty cool,” and then they roll their desks over when they’re done with whatever they were doing.
Putting a product out requires 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. The reason so many people make hour long video essays is that they can regurgitate their inspiration directly to a camera while doing little substantive work.
Valve likely has other “1% inspiration” tasks people often choose over the “boring” parts of game development - the bits that don’t excite anyone, and would only be done with the direct promise of a paycheck. Who wants to write up a design document, and go through 8 drafts for feedback?
I think the quote from Jane is pretty telling. Some people at Valve only help out when a project starts “getting pretty cool.” It’s probably the cause of a lot of inertia in game development over there. Also, just an interesting detail, Jane Ng is from Campo Santo and she stopped working on In the Valley of Gods to work on HL: Alyx.
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Maybe steam keeps winning because they’re not actively screwing over their customers
Idk, they are kinda screwing over the publishers. But that doesn’t impact the users buying the game, so they don’t care. Which I guess the percentage they take is worth the value they bring, given so many keep selling on steam.
Genuinely curious but how are they screwing over the publishers?
I’m especially curious how that can be true along with the seemingly contradictory conclusion you came to in your last sentence.
Steam gets something to the tune of 30 % as their fee.
30% is industry standard from Apple, Microsoft, Google, Sony, etc.
Steam taking 30% is nothing out of the norm
It’s just a pretty ridiculous cut for steam. Steam gets 30% of every transaction.
But I was saying that I suppose the extreme cut of 30% must be worth it since so many developers keep coming back to steam. But that also could just be because they have such a monopoly that users don’t want to switch DRMs.
You people need to watch the GDC Talk by the spiderweb software indie dev from like half a decade ago. He said, loud and clear, that the 30 cut is great and worth it for what he gets. Sure, lower cut is always nice, but let’s not be stupid and say that the devs don’t get their money’s worth.
Let’s not be stupid, and recommend an hour long video without a link (it’s here) as an answer to why 30% is a good deal. He says it loud and clear, but also it’s hidden somewhere in the hour long talk. Like I said, 30% must be worth it if so many developers are willing to take the cut for the services. But if a big part of what you’re getting is the number of users that use your platform, then you’re in a bit of a loop. The 30% is worth it because so many people will see your game, and users don’t leave steam because it’s where all their games are. The users have incentive to stay, because it’s nice to keep all your games in one spot. I have over 1,500 games on steam, so for me to leave steam would mean leaving behind thousands of dollars worth of content I paid for already. So how can another service enter the arena and have any viability? 30% might be fair, but it might also be too high. What if it doesn’t matter if it’s too high because they get more sales on Steam? It’s a complicated topic, but I’m just saying that 30% of each and every sale is a pretty big cut, even if it has become standard (a standard set by steam).
The 30% were introduced by Nintendo for cartridges iirc. So I would not say valve set that standard.
I’m glad steam and gog exist. Both provide an amazing service.
Especially GOG being DRM free but they really need a Linux client.
Hard ask for a Linux client when the Windows client is barely functional.
It would be nice but I like Heroic launcher a lot. I probably wouldn’t bother installing a gog Linux client.
Heroic is currently the best option imo, it at least has cloud saves and updates.
Try Lutris
My friend said he installed gog galaxy onhis steam deck just fine
Why? The website works fine.
downloading 30 separate 4GB files one by one is an unecessary chore. A ‘download all’ would make the website good
This isn’t really that hot of a take. Steam does keep winning and it’s because of convenience for consumers. Valve also is probably the best of those companies when it comes to not violating rights. I really hope when Gaben passes the torch for valve ownership that it’s someone with his vision and priorities
Steam does keep winning and it’s because of convenience for consumers.
As a Linux user, nothing else comes even close. I can read on ProtonDB if I can expect a Windows game to just work, and more often than not, it does.
GOG is also a great concept, and somewhat Linux friendly, but it doesn’t have the Steam “click and play” convenience.
Epic Game Store however, has been decidedly Linux hostile for some reason??? As I see it, Steam and GOG are for gamers, Epic Game Store is for business. It would be a dark day for gamers, if Epic ever became dominant.Epic is Linux adverse mainly because of its Chinese investors. They don’t want to open source their spyware.
Why would they have to open source anything? Just because it’s running on Linux doesn’t mean it’s OSS or even F(L)OSS. Steam isn’t open source either.
Not to mention that open source software can and sometimes does contain spyware.
Not to mention that open source software can and sometimes does contain spyware.
That seems allot more like a one-off, a one time thing.
Also, anyone can view the source code for the open source product.
Nobody with two brain cells says foss can’t have spy/malware. What’s true is only that in important projects, it is very likely it will raise flags very soon. For example, see your link
I would think China would be eager to get out of western (USA) dominated Operating Systems.
I know Russia has attempted it as couple of times, but with very little success.
Steam and GoG are not just free services for gamers either. At their core they are businesses, and they invest significantly to try and make people spend more/get addicted to their services.
I hate this whole idea that some companies are your friend. That just shows their marketing and branding is working on people and blinding people.
I hate this whole idea that some companies are your friend.
It’s not a matter of them being your friend or not, it’s a matter of them respecting their customers, and giving their customers what they want, generating a win-win.
These days most corporations are very happy with the win-lose scenarios, as it maximizes their profits.
Publicly traded companies, which we’ve all learned to hate and not take as our friends, are in no way comparable to Steam which is privately owned. Gabe Newell is in no way forced by shareholders to push for increased profits, the company has no interest in pushing for enshittification unlike VC funded startups.
Thank goodness Gabe will live forever and Steam will always be a private company then!
Oh… Shit.
This is exactly what I mean. It’s like people just have no concept of the future. Point me to any private company that’s been around a long time and is still not shit.
They were the company who had people who recognized that they already did all of their ideas and their best bet was to get out of the way for the next generation of developers. The other studios are apparently run by narcissists who still think they are at the top of their game. The world could learn a big lesson from Valve.
It’s not narcissism. It is a rational decision with major upside if you can pull off building your own storefront and launcher. If you can stop paying steam 30 percent of every sale, and have direct access to the user for data collection and targeted advertising, you try to execute. There is a ton of upside for Epic, EA, or Ubisoft to go direct to consumer and not have a middle man (and possibly be the middle man for others).
I’m referring to the young Gen X and elderly Millennials who still run the industry and still think that everything should be full of micro transactions, huge bugs, and DLC with no content. I’m referring to the people who are scared of Baldurs Gate III and claim that nobody can reach that standard. They are still thinking of games as they were 15 years ago but the world has moved on.
young Gen X and elderly Millennials who still run the industry and still think that everything should be full of micro transactions, huge bugs, and DLC with no content.
As a Gen-Xer I can say with some level of confidence that my gen was all about Shareware and cheering developers on when years later they would release the source code to their games (Doom, etc.). And the games you bought were all complete, no DLC.
I can’t tell you how many years I used the RAR compression format before finally paying for a license for it.
Early gaming/computing was a lot more socialistic than it was capitalistic.
Also Gen X. I seriously never paid for a single piece of software. Then it started to come with your computer. Then you got it for free or through a work account.
In the end I only pay for games.
So much contradiction and ageism in this comment. Older people are the problem thinking of games they were 15 years ago, but also aggressively pushing micro transactions that a pretty new for non mobile games in the past 10 years.
That’s literally my argument. That’s literally what I’m saying. This is not a boomer problem, it’s a problem with those that came after. The world is ready to move on but the industry insiders aren’t.
Older millennials got in and reinvented the world. Time to let the zoomers do the same.
See also CD Project Rekt saying that they don’t want to be bought up because they are about to become big again.
What are you talking about. Millennials are just now turning 40 years old. Gen X is the age of the major CEO’s and leaders in the industry. How do millenials “get out of the way” when they finally are hitting mid career where they have a say?
I specifically said younger gen x and older millennials. When the millennials got in, they had great new ideas that changed the world. Now they are out of touch and holding back the industry. Just look at Bethesda and EA s examples of this.
All I’m really trying to say is that when you run out of ideas, get out of the way of those who still have them.
This is pretty much what I said would happen in some other threads. EGS came and portrayed itself as a savior or developers, but the cost of solution comes from consumers. They didn’t try to compete in quality of service or features, but spent hundreds of millions on exclusive deals. Who in their right mind would switch from something like Steam where sole focus is the consumer.
Yes, Steam takes a huge percentage but it’s not like anyone is forcing developers to go there. Developers go there because that’s where the people are. And people are there because they get many more benefits for the same or lower price. Steam offers so many conveniences and features it’s hard to list them all. From cloud saves to Proton, chat, family sharing and so on.
Steam Input is another underrated feature, makes use of any controller plug and play.
What’s funny though is that a game was exclusive to the Epic Games Store, the devs of the game recommended to launch the game launcher via steam to use steam input as EGS or game had some controller detection issues lol
But like seriously, it’s 2024, all games should support all controllers natively, without the need for steam input/rewasd/ds4windows etc
While some games do support dualsense and dualshock natively, but they don’t support switch controller?!
While we’re at it can we also have both sets of controller glyphs available on PC for games that released on Xbox and Playstation? My ps5 controller works fine but I still see “press Y to interact” in game
some games do show ps5 glyphs, if the game uses steam input api completely it will show
and some other games show glyphs natively like FIFA/FC 24 and other ps games like spiderman, god of war etc
Unfortunately FromSoft missed this memo and only has Xbox/MKB glyphs native. Since Elden Ring uses anti-cheat I can’t even mod the ps5 glyphs in without losing online functionality :(
The games that just let you choose within the options are gold. With GeForce Now, OSX, Moonlight, or 3rd party controllers it is sometimes a total mess to just display as a damn PlayStation or Nintendo controller. I can’t stand the Xbox layout and it is even worse when I get used to playing a game with one layout and then I am expected to use a different one because using X launcher on other system doesn’t see the controller that way.
I can’t help that my brain can’t switch back and forth easily nor mentally remap buttons that clearly say something different when I look down. I have put labels next to the buttons on my 8bit controllers so I can “remember” what the Xbox layout is… The only layout I don’t need labels for is PlayStation.
If Epic had required developers to, say, sell games 15% cheaper (they only take a 12% cut instead of 30%, so the devs would still win out!) then they could have had a really cool argument on their hands. “Look how much Steam costs you as the consumer just from them enriching themselves!”. Then the dearth of features would have been excusable, sure the shop is shit and does ˜nothing but hey, 10% cheaper in return!
Instead, as you say, they wanted to completely brute-force consumers onto the platform by putting their big fortnite money dick on the table, and it backfires and they spent a ton of money on a fat load of nothing.
Plus they’ve nicely trained their consumers that all the EGS client is for is launching it once on Thursdays to get your free game. Not the thing you want customers to associate with your supposedly money-making scheme.
If Epic had required developers to, say, sell games 15% cheaper
Epic cannot do that because
In response to one inquiry from a game publisher, in another example, Valve explained: “We basically see any selling of the game on PC, Steam key or not, as a part of the same shared PC market- so even if you weren’t using Steam keys, we’d just choose to stop selling a game if it was always running discounts of 75% off on one store but 50% off on ours. . . .”
(source)
However, Epic regularly offers coupons out of pocket. Right now you can get 33% off any game above $14.99 or the regional equivalent, as many times as you want, even if the game is already discounted by the publisher. You also get 10% as cashback.
What’s in your wallet?
And you can properly UNINSTALL games on steam. Epic is a joke when it comes to this. Have to right click and delete folder contents like it’s a 90s version of hacking a game illegally downloaded. They just need a little key generator with an 80s game sound you can’t mute. I thoroughly hate my experience with epic. Archaic POS.
Buuttt Alorn Waek 2 is great!
Fuck Epic with a rusty shovel.
This article didn’t research the VR bits…Gabe has said multiple times, even recently, that they are working steadily on VR and it’s hardware. Their next headset even has a codename, Deckard.
Also, I don’t think most people realize Valve doesn’t have much of an internal structure. It more resembles a community of people working together because they want to.
Oh god, I just realized… Imagine if they brought Portal back, but in VR like they did Half-Life.
We’d get so many videos of people falling over in their living room
working steadily on VR and it’s hardware.
If they fix the bullshit joystick switch on the goddamn index controllers I will throat every valve employee that made it happen.
Open up for gaben
Funded by the cash cow steam store, they just kinda do what they will in the mean time.
It’s funny that back in 2009 Gabe Newell was talking about the focus on the customer, and making the DRM be above all useful and do things that benefit customers instead of just benefitting the developer/publisher…and here we are today where people really don’t give a shit about the revenue split, but the fact that Steam is an extremely convenient and useful platform that does a lot of legwork for the end users that people don’t even think about anymore.
Epic is trying to wave a banner of revolution, where we the end users just want our shit to work and run nicely. Obligatory mention of Linux here as well, where it seems Valve is truly trying to foster an ecosystem that benefits customers as opposed to fucking them over. That’s in lieu of the Polygon hit-piece https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/16/15622366/valve-gabe-newell-sales-origin-destructive where they point out the scummy things Valve has done…but if you take Valve away you’re left with a barren landscape of shitty publishers that actively treat customers awful with none of the good things Valve does.
Such a weak article. One of the arguments is that valve is awful because… people talk about steam sales, thus giving them free marketing.
Personally, I just don’t want to have to use 6 different game stores/launchers and I’m happy with steam. Just having game pass also is enough to illustrate how much of a pain it would be, since I’ve bought a bunch of games and have later noticed I could have tried them for free on the Xbox app.
Man, you weren’t kidding. Their strongest argument was that valve can run steam for essentially free, which is just fucking ridiculous. Valve defined content service in the 21st century, they paved the way for streaming and netflix. How anyone that is arguing in good faith can think reliably serving data thats 10x-100x larger than a Netflix stream is ‘basically free’ is unbelievable.
Also, it is not “pulling out all the stops” to drag out an international business court case if that case took eighteen months. I’ve seen international filings where you havent even gotten a hearing date after 18 months, what in the hell is the author smoking…
Well… Not to take away any points from Valve because it’s still a big chunk of infrastructure, but this made me pause… I think steam content is arguably easier to serve than something like Netflix. Netflix has to deal with encoding content and it’s important for streams to not buffer, so it has to consistently stream data at a decent rate (if steam hiccups it sucks, but it’s not a problem where you’re interrupted mid game, at least). Games can be a lot bigger than videos, but I’m not sure how much that matters for this. Storage is relatively cheap and Netflix will probably have multiple copies of each video in different codecs and bitrates which might make it more equivalent storage wise? Per hour of entertainment my guess is that Netflix actually has to send more data over the network than steam on average. There’s plenty of smaller games, and people can often spend hundreds of hours in a single game. If somebody rewatches a show they’ll stream it again, but if they replay a game they might still have a copy downloaded…
I don’t know any of the actual details, but I’m curious now how they actually compare! I’d guess Netflix probably has twice as many active users as steam, and I’d guess Netflix uses more bandwidth per user than steam (I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if it was 10x as much… I think people could easily stream 50gb per day, and I maaaaybe download that much from steam in a couple of weeks on average). Would be curious how it actually works out!
This isn’t to say steam is free to host, it obviously isn’t, I just think Netflix might be harder. I’m a tiny bit worried about Steam’s back catalog long term, eventually it may not be deemed profitable to keep hosting old games “for free”. Like eventually if nobody is buying a game anymore, but people keep downloading it, it couuuuld technically cost steam more to host than they made off of it, and maintaining storage long term costs money too (though hopefully this keeps getting less expensive over time). The margins for Valve are super high, though, so hopefully it doesn’t matter!
That’s in lieu of the Polygon hit-piece https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/16/15622366/valve-gabe-newell-sales-origin-destructive where they point out the scummy things Valve has done
That article thinks people aren’t smart enough to realize that Valve is a corporation like other ones, but it’s one that strives for the “win-win” scenarios, where other corporations strive for the “win-lose” (AKA profit above all).
People don’t mind if a corporation makes money, as long as they do it ethically (products that are priced fairly, not harmful to their customers, works well, and last a long time), and also takes care of their customers, treating them with respect.
But that article doesn’t seem to realize that, it tends to write that all off as just some kind of psyop by Valve on their customer base to ‘pull the wool over their eyes’ while they fuck them over.
having a company that is not actively trying to exploit us is surprisingly refreshing.
It’s rare that I wholeheartedly back a billion dollar company, but I do with Valve. Until Gabe is no longer CEO and their business model changes to something more nefarious, I will stick with them for years to come. No battle.net, No epic, just Steam.
Valve has done scummy things even recently but the scummy things they’ve done have never personally affected me negatively so I don’t care.
Source for the scummies?
Replacing csgo with counterstrike 2 so its broken launch could be covered up with a decade of positive reviews for a different game and guaranteeing people won’t be able to play the previous after an indefinite amount of time was pretty scummy, for one.
CS2 is fine and it feels like CSGO, except the nades were updated. If you want to go nostalgic you can go play the other CS games.
I understand preserving a game is important, but this isn’t a single-player game, this is a game that they have to continuously host and manage, which costs money. Valve wanted to update the game, and they probably didn’t want to have 2 games fighting each other. You can be mad at their strategy, but CSGO was a free multiplayer game (yes yes it was $15 or $20 dollars years ago), and they decided to change it into an updated free multiplayer game.
If you want to call them scummy because they slightly changed a game you paid for, go for it. Never buy another Valve product and go exclusively GOG.
Having said all that, I would be on your side if and only if we were talking about a single-player game that does not need to be managed 24/7.
Replacing csgo with counterstrike 2 so its broken launch could be covered up with a decade of positive reviews for a different game and guaranteeing people won’t be able to play the previous after an indefinite amount of time was pretty scummy, for one.
People would be way more up in arms had it been a completely new game where none of the inventory transfers over. Recent reviews are still “mostly positive” and traditional CSGO is still available, just unsupported. I dislike it myself that practice with bots and a friend currently no longer works in CS2 but enabling csgo_legacy wan’t that much of a deal for me.
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I like what Valve does and I sound like a fanboy sometimes because they just keep doing great stuff… But I don’t fucking trust them long term. I hope they prove me wrong, of course! I also don’t really trust anybody else.
Maybe there’s a disproportionately high amount of linux users on lemmy, cause I keep seeing it come up in the comments. But I would use Epic if they had linux support. Heck some games like satisfactory I have access to on both cause I paid for it twice lol
Call me whatever, but Valve does so much for Linux gaming that when I do buy games I make sure to get them through Steam. Between Proton and the Steam Deck it seems like Valve is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Linux gaming is in a great place right now and Valve deserves a lot of credit.
They also have Steam Input which is incredible. The customization and control you have over your experience is insane.
Epic Games on the other hand can’t even be bothered to support Linux properly. Valve earns their cut.
🤡
They won me over permanently when they instituted a refund policy.
Not just a refund policy but a refund policy where you can just say ‘yeah this shit sucks yo’
You’re not wrong. 💯
I rarely am. I’m a very wise man.
the oracle stated something to the effect of “Socrates is the wisest person in Athens.”[3] Socrates, believing the oracle but also completely convinced that he knew nothing, was said to have concluded that nobody knew anything, and that he was only wiser than others because he was the only person who recognized his own ignorance.
I know this quote, for I am very intelligent. Also handsome.
And exceedingly humble.
You forgot to mention modest. :p
And exceedingly humble.
Could you be the humblest person in the world?
It took the australian government to do it, but at least they did it in the best possible way after being forced to, instead of throwing a tantrum and having people need to talk to a support person.
Steam did have refund policy and I have returned games in the past, but it was a review process.
Makes sense Santa would holiday somewhere sunny.
Pretty sure Gabe lives in New Zealand now. Unless I’m remembering incorrectly, he just got stuck there during COVID and then never left once restrictions were eased.
By the way, that sun is the ozone hole.
Unless I’m remembering incorrectly, he just got stuck there during COVID and then never left once restrictions were eased.
Yeah, there was some fuss recently about him getting ordered to attend as a witness at some trial in the US instead of video conferencing as is the norm since covid.
We did it boiz.
Pat yourselves on the back if you never used an alternative.
This is a weird mentality. Competition in the space is good, even if the current “default” thing is really good.
Fanboys and monopolies, name a better combination.
Cheese and a cheese slicer.
You missed an opportunity to say “coffee and biscuits” and I’ve never been more disappointed 😔
I failed myself 😓
Sorry you got swindled into buying games on a bunch of different launchers.
I’ve not been “swindled” into anything, I’ve never paid for shit twice and I get most of my games DRM free on GOG. I use Epic exclusively for their free games.
I’m just sick of hearing Gabe’s personal blowjob brigade pretending that monopolies and capitalism don’t apply when it’s a product they personally enjoy.
Competition is good…when the competition is actually competitive.
But what has happened is games on are steam … which installs the launcher + game.
So it’s not a win at all. It’s actually a loss for us. If steam was to force “yeah you can publish the game on steam, but you cannot use your launcher”
The competition kind of shot itself in the foot
Competition for the sake of competition isn’t intrinsically a good thing.
Seems to me, most of the people complaining about Steam are greedy devs who want to make more money off of their products.
For me, as a user, that’s not my concern. For me, as a user, it’s more important that I can play games without having to download different launchers just to make someone else richer.
GOG is probably the only legitimate competitor with Steam. They provide value to customers instead of just themselves or greedy devs.
A nice thing about GOG is that you can choose whether or not you use their launcher. You can use GOG Galaxy, and it will download game updates and sync saves. or you can just not use it; and just launch the games directly. Or you can put shortcuts to the gog games into steam and launch them from there. Or you can launch your steam games from galaxy if you like. … I appreciate that kind of stuff a lot, because although I think Steam does a good job, I’m very wary of lock-in and companies becoming too powerful.
(And of course, for real indie games, itch.io is the place to go.)
For me, as a user, that’s not my concern. For me, as a user, it’s more important that I can
have my convenienceFTFY
Also, the only truly bad competition is subsidized competition. As long as it’s not surviving on some kind of grant or funding, instead of its actual market value, then it’s always a good thing as it keeps competitors on their toes.
That is looks like it’s supposed to point out something negative.
Convenience is always something to consider as a customer in literally any product. It’s most often the main driver between competitors and can make or brake a product.
So, yeah. Using another launcher that has 10% of the features and not a single upside while being incredibly inconvenient has not worked out. Fuck origin, uplay, and the likes.
Listen. Some of us have our life savings in our Steam library. If competition ever drives Steam bankrupt, we go down with the ship! We take Steam’s health personally and very seriously. Your mumbo jumbo about competition doesn’t factor into it.
That’s why you buy from GOG.
No one wants Steam bankrupt, they just want more than one videogame vendor on PC to be viable.
“Mumbo jumbo about competition” I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or are just legitimately a braindead moron.
There are exceptions to the notion that competition is good. If we attempt to map out all the exceptions, we will be left with mumbo jumbo. Economic libertarianism is the true death of the brain. Some monopolies are good and any threat to the monopoly is a threat to the consumer.
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As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread, the only bad competition is one that gets subsidized in order to survive. If they are operating on their own profit margins then they are definitionally “good competition.”
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No, zero monopolies are good. If you can even name one that you personally believe to somehow be good then I can explain why you’re wrong.
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At no point in time has a natural diversification of product sources has been bad for the consumer. The only exceptions to this relate back to point #1, the subsidized or otherwise “assisted” business model.
Any threat to the monopoly is a threat to the consumer
Tell me, does your childhood home have a lot of lead paint on the walls? We aren’t trying to take down Steam FFS, just provide alternatives that force them to stay competitive by giving better service to the consumer.
The fact that you think a second source for videogames is somehow going to threaten you personally just shows how much of a zombie you are. Gabe isn’t your lord and savior, he’s just another rich guy who has a monopoly on his corner of the market. Grow the fuck up.
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Ya because so far it doesn’t seem to impact the consumer so it works for me lol. Valve has always had great sales too. If they jacked up prices YoY, and did evil things, then I’d welcome competition. But all I see at this point is lousy extra software to install a single game or two. Annoying. Fragmented. Just just media streaming.
What I’m wondering: is this going to happen to the many streaming services as well? They’re many and expensive. Are they going to consolidate in a few or are they going to lower their prices so that they don’t continue to lose users?
No. They’re repeating cable history. The great bundling has already begun. Hulu and Disney are being rolled together. You’re going to have fewer options moving forward. You’ll have to buy the netflix-hulu-disney-peacock-hbo-starz bundle or the other one with all the rest. Then they can keep cranking up the price because it’s all or nothing. Prices will go up until too many people choose the “nothing” option, then they’ll start doing a “build your own package” to let you drop half and save 10% just because you want one of the services.
Yo ho yo ho a repeat of history for me.
I see it’s not your first rodeo…
It will just keep getting worse until some new “disruptor” enters the marketplace. That one will be great for a while, then collapse into a new archipelago of shitty cash grabs.
I’m just wondering what the next big thing will be… Maybe some kind of local macro-kiosks that have mechanical DRM units that store all the data so they don’t have to negotiate with the non-open ISPs. You could probably even include impulse sales of physical merchandise and consumables while people browse for the media they want.
or are they going to lower their prices so that they don’t continue to lose users?
We all know this isn’t happening
HBO and Disney are already delisting some shows and selling the rights for the more successful ones to buy and add it to their catalog.
are they going to lower their prices so that they don’t continue to lose users?
If they lose users, they’ll increase the prices for everyone else. Then they’ll lose even more and increase prices even more.
Let’s start a pool to predict how many years/months until Steam enshitifies. It WILL happen. It’s just a matter of when.
Of course, but I’m not expecting that to happen until Gabe dies or retires. Until then I think Steam will be number 1.
Hopefully not soon, but probably once Gabe is gone if i had to guess.
If steam goes public, might as well start packing the bug out bag because shit is going to go south real quick.
It WILL happen. It’s just a matter of when.
Probably but that doesn’t mean that I have to buy games on inferior platform now.
GOG > itch.io > Steam > whale poo > everything else
For Linux, it’s Steam and then anything that works with Bottles, Lutris or Heroic.
