On the side bar it lists the following:
- [Matrix/Element]Dead
- Discord
“Discord” is an active link, but the Matrix link is completely inactive. Not only is it inactive (which could have be excused as a broken link), but it is also manually labeled as “Dead”, as if there is no intention of making it work. How can a community that is focused on privacy willingly favor a service that is privacy non-respecting when a perfectly functional privacy-respecting alternative exists?
It’s the timeless debate between accessibility and exclusivity. Do you want more people in your community by compromising some values? Or would you rather be a hardliner but never reach those people?
Most of the time you have to pick somewhere on that spectrum. It’s a question of pragmatism and utilitarianism.
Does it do more good for lots of people to be slightly more privacy-aware, or is it better to have a very small portion of the population that are super privacy-aware?
You have to decide, and the debate rages on all the time.
If you compromise on the very topic you’re promoting, you don’t care enough.
Wait, really? So you think Matrix is the ultimate form of secure and private “chat” communities? Because if it is not then it is a compromise.
This Lemmy instance for sure as hell is not the most private and secure.
It’s a lot better than discord, that’s for sure
deleted by creator
Never used it but I can imagine it being better. Discord is annoying as hell. Point was that the commenter seemed to argue that you should not accept any compromises, which seems silly to me.
They said a “big” compromise? Why did you skip over their qualifier? Are all compromises equal?
(Test)
Where did they say that?
I dunno. The comment doesn’t have the word in it now; that’s why #1981 is important. But, maybe they didn’t and I imagined it.
It remains true that not all compromises are equal, and the privacy compromises we make for Discord are relatively large compared to the ones for Matrix.
There is an “edited” indicator for posts, and the post you’re referring to doesn’t have it.
Sure, your point is true, but you were (incorrectly) accusing the other commenter of skipping a qualifier that would make your point relevant.
You’re right; Voyager doesn’t show the “edited” flag.
I was mistaken about the word, and the accusation about skipping over it was unwarrented.
I think this is missing the point by arguing semantics, but my phrasing was wrong.
Not compromising at all would be not using the internet though. Probably live in a cottage somewhere in the middle of nowhere too.
Isn’t Lemmy itself a big compromise?
We all compromise somewhere, it’s just a question of where the line is. Even Richard Stallman makes concessions for things like Firmware and hardware being closed source.
deleted by creator
In addition to adoption, it takes time for the usability to catch up.
Right now Signal is just as good (IMO better) as Messenger usability wise, but that wasn’t always there.
Matrix needs some time to iron out those issues
I agree to an extent, but usability is not a sufficient condition for mass adoption. I think Lemmy for end users is just as usable as Reddit was, at least for me it is. But people don’t want to leave their communities.
That’s why personally I have a Discord still. There are too many communities I am an active part of on there to abandon Discord outright. Plus all of my friends and family are on there, and I’ve already approached some them about switching and they all have said the same thing I just did.
I wasn’t ever super invested in Reddit, so it was easy for me to abandon it for Lemmy, and I vastly prefer the communities here. Discord though is a different story for now, unfortunately.
Are you able to at least bridge you matrix to the discord? You should, at the very least, be able to do that while also promoting matrix.
deleted by creator
Oh shit. I did not realize that.
Because privacy communities are a joke.
Yeah it quickly becomes a dick measuring contest and shunning people for using different things. It becomes very black/white views, and have some crazy out of touch takes, like expecting your grandma to self host lol. They also confuse anonymity with privacy, like how not being able to sign up for something with tor and monero is a privacy violation, it’s not.
I think it falls into the same pitfalls as most super niche communities, like a lot of subreddits did.
For example, the shaving subreddit (/r/wicked_edge I think?). Its mission statement was to introduce people to cleaner, safer, and more efficient shaving methods. And for the most part, with all of its resources and wikis, it successfully did it. But if you choose to stay after you’ve made your informed purchases, the posts were mostly braggarts showing off their latest hundreds-of-dollars handles, supreme razor blades, brushes made from actual gold, that sort of thing. My point is, the average person (by my guess, like 90% of people going to the site) gets the information they need and then never participate in the community again. But those who stay are those who really want to stay– people who are most likely to brag and boast. So over time, it falls more and more into plain old dick measuring contests.
This obviously isn’t true of all communities, but I think it’s a common pitfall for a lot of them. I can imagine privacy is very similar: take all the steps you can to learn to protect your privacy, and then… you’re good, for the most part.
Wow this is great I am surprised to see people talking about this (let alone even being aware of it).
Really refreshing to not have it to be a contest to follow random dogmas.
Lemmy is refreshingly smarter than I was used to seeing on Reddit.
Hahahaha
Not have it be a contest to follow random dogmas
Lemmy is refreshingly smarter than… reddit
I don’t know if this was intentional or not, but either way this was hilarious!!
Reminds me of what happened to the pipe tobacco sub after Reddit banned trading of tobacco.
What had been a thriving sub of trading, sharing, well written reviews and friendly discussion quickly became stagnant and started leaning towards people showing off their expensive pipes and tobacco orders. Without the people who came for the trading and stayed to chat, the sub became boring quickly.
Pfft. My gramgram self-hosts on her own LFS build with a hardened kernel and custom written SELinux policies. All your grandparents need to get on her level.
Disclaimer: Everything here is a lie.
like how not being able to sign up for something with tor and monero is a privacy violation, it’s not.
Note that “secrecy” and “privacy” are often understood in Security lingo as different things. One protects confidentiality, the other one protects anonymity.
It’s possible to have one and not the other…
You can have a very private system through onion routing but have the contents of the messages exchanged be in plaintext, open to the public. Nobody will be able to know the one who wrote the message was you. But they can see the message. (then there is privacy, but not secrecy).
Or you can have very strongly encrypted communications (say HTTPS) but have the DNS exchanges (or the TLS handshake, or the IP addresses) be in the clear, so people in the middle (eg. your ISP… or your workplace tech guys) can know exactly that the packages are sent by you and where you sent them, even if their content is encrypted. They can know which service you tried to access to, for how long and how many times (so you have secrecy, but not privacy).
Shun!
it quickly becomes a dick measuring contest and shunning people for using different things. It becomes very black/white views, and have some crazy out of touch takes
In other words, it’s just like literally every online community in the history of the Internet. When Sir TimBL created the first web page, people probably used it to bitch about how everyone else was doing it wrong.
Most cryptocurrency communities use Discord or Telegram. It’s such an embarrasment.
I’ve never understood this either, given the whole notion and enthusiasm behind decentralization. I get the trade-offs regarding privacy, security, and convenience, but if you’re really tryna start a movement, and you really believe in the concept and principles of something like cryptocurrency, it seems like your communities and communication channels should also reflect similar values.
Crypto enthusiasts don’t really care or understand decentralization. If you talk to crypto bros you will realize pretty quickly that a lot of them are very very low IQ morons.
I was at an event and met a crypto bro. He tried to explain to a group of us that btc is like moss and the world is the forest. A couple people legitimately “got it” and began to get excited about crypto.
Crypto enthusiasts don’t really care or understand decentralization.
I wouldn’t criticize others for their low IQ while making such a dumb generalization.
Oh I hate communities that use Telegram. I mean, sure, I guess there’s better privacy, but Telegram was just not built for that. Messages always get lost, and there are no channels, which means no info channel, so they have to try and cram everything into the description.
Should be telling the only two services they use is one infamous for fuck tons of child grooming and one infamous for fuck tons of terrorism.
Lazyness and convenience, as always.
Omg fuck discord so much
I don’t understand why it’s so popular… It’s a fancy IRC that’s centralized by a single company
fancy IRC
IRC was already “caveman playing with sticks and pebbles” a decade before discord became a thing. It’s really not a good point of comparison and questioning.
Discord became popular for one simple reason: anyone could make a server, share it with a crossplatform link, and others could then try out that link without installing anything. In other words, it became popular because it literally copied Slack and because the Skype era was atrociously bad customization and ease of use-wise compared to the preceding.
Every time I see Slack/Discord et Al. described as such, I wonder if any of these people actually used any of those. By use, I mean actually try out its features, not just treating it as IRC (“just” channels, messages and DMs for text convos).
I hate Discord with a passion, but pretending like it’s just “fancy IRC” is IMHO pretty absurd.
Removed by mod
If you legitimately don’t understand why it’s popular, you are seriously out of touch.
- Better moderation tools
- Easier to do voice/video channels
- Easy to create your own server
- Huge amount of useful bots created by the community
- Features like replies, threads, onboarding screens, and custom emotes
Don’t get me wrong, I wish that we could use a FOSS platform instead of Discord, but 1: people are already using Discord and it’s hard to get everyone to switch platform, and 2: there is no comparable alternative right now
deleted by creator
Dude, Matrix mod tools are pretty much universally complained about, and I say that as a person who uses Matrix as a mod.
I think most of those points you said aren’t the reason
But they are
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
I use it because some of my favorite games for the Nintendo DS that has Wiimmfi support use it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Too hard to regrow the, already tiny user base in those cases.
Just got whiplash from hearing Wiimmfi outside the mkwii community
Yeah, seems like it is only for MK for Wii, as it shows in the always decent active users count, but it supports many games, and I use it mainly for Metroid Prime Hunters and Jump Ultimate Stars.
deleted by creator
It’s the emojis for me tbh. I’m not sorry
deleted by creator
I’ve used the Discord bridge before; it works pretty well, and allows Matrix users to practice better (identity & tracking) privacy if they want. There is none, in Discord.
It does require (a) the Discord community admin to allow the bridge, and (b) some playing with configuration of the bridge to get banning working.
The biggest issue with Matrix is how privacy-respecting it is. Any public forum with anonymous account creation is subject to spam bots, and requires more work by admins. The biggest complaint about the bridge, and why so many Discord admins do not allow it, is because it greatly increases the spam they have to deal with. Kicking and blocking do work fine through the bridge, but it’s still a distraction requiring constant vigilance.
Matrix needs better admin tools (where have we heard that before?) Mjolnir is good, but the freely hosted instance was shut down a year or so ago, so it’s not available to casual users. And taking on running a service just for a community bridge is a silly requirement.
My points are, that it’s not an either-or, but that it requires work. It’s a question of commitment, not possibility. c/privacy could have a Matrix-first, privacy-friendly approach and still offer Discord for privacy casuals; it’s just harder.
Discord UX be like
I guess people just prefer and are more active on Discord
“I guess people just prefer and are more active on Facebook Messenger”
Wanna go crazy? Use SimpleXchat
Removed by mod
Because privacy and convenience are two extreme opposites and you can only go so far in the privacy direction before you start losing everything. Discord just works a million times better as a public forum/community than Matrix and is much more easily accessible to everyone.
There is a limit. I am privacy conscious but I still use all Google Services for example, because they actually provide me with a better web, work, mobile and entertainment experiences. Similarly, I prefer Discord for big communities with channels, server bots and topics, over Matrix.
Edit: all those people saying we can’t be privacy conscious and use Google Services at the same time: yes you can. Their services literally make my life better so I will keep using them, but I keep what I share with them to the absolute minimum. I go into their settings and disable everything I can about tracking and ads personalization (even if they still track me, I do my best not to be). You can surely still be privacy conscious using non-private products. Being extremist is not how you convince average joes to think about privacy, nor by telling them to give up all they use for unknown (for them) alternatives.
Matrix is pretty convenient. They’ve got a great mobile and web app experience.
What exactly does discord have that mateix doesn’t? They both have threading, replies, reacts, etc.
Removed by mod
Could you elaborate?
Removed by mod
Each matrix chat is it’s own channel. To admin multiple channels as you would on discord you just have to set up multiple matrix chats held by a common owner.
There is a mod role but you’re right that you can’t make custom ones though I honestly don’t see much need to for a simple privacy community.
And I think matrix has voice now.
But yah I get what you’re saying. Thank you for the elaboration.
Yes, Google even read your mails, it’s sooo private. Its right that Google offers good services respect quality, but its a privacy nightmare and nowadays there are very good alternatives out there, even when they are also propietary. Eg, YT is maybe the best streaming platform, but full of ads, clickbaits, tracking and other crap, now even blocks videos if you use some adblockers. Because of this a lot of people translade subscriptions and playlists to Odysee, also privacy but way better respect privacy and few ads (online service of IMDB)
Discord is certainly not the best but also not the worse (see Reddit, X, Fakebook, WhatsCrap, etc), but offers a lot of features which other platforms don’t have.
Privacy in internet finish when you go online, the user can only patch the worst leaks more or less succesfull, beginning with the worst privacy and security hole, himself. Read the TOS and PP of an soft or service you want to use, check the sites with Blacklight, Webkoll, UrlVoid, Exodus Privacy, AV or similar, even if it is FOSS, which no neccesarly is a security or privacy feature, tracking APIs from Google, Amazon, Facebook and M$ are also FOSS and included in a lot of FOSS in this Microsoft site called GitHub.
You don’t need a tin foil hat, but common sense in the internet.
deleted by creator
Well they’re privacy “conscious” but still feel trapped. IMHO the first sentence is even more telling namely “privacy and convenience are two extreme opposites” as a justification. It’s not necessarily true, namely one can use… well pretty much anything BUT Google or Meta product and have a perfectly convenient experience. They are just used to it, so amalgamating what they are used to to what is objectively convenient for all.
Maybe some day in the near future they will decide to go from being conscious to active about it and I can tell in advance, they are going to feel a lot better, but it requires more than introspection, it requires action.
non-privacy services have more money=have more and probably better people to work on them=better quality
Please stop using questionable logic to promote large companies, they do not need your free help for more marketing. There is even research showing it’s false https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/when-31-4-the-effect-of-gift-salience-on-employee-effort-in-an-online-labor-market in many ways https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/01461672231159781
There is no correlation between pay and quality work. I’m genuinely shocked this is even an argument held on a platform running on FLOSS.
Some might be more “convenient” on having an easier on-boarding, and even that is questionable, but regardless that’s not the same as “better quality”.
i said more and probably better programmers
Some shocking answers here 🤷♂️
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
Why is it always graphene os drama.
Also are you really expecting evidence for a cp/gore flood, like wtf? Not only are you asking for people to screen cap that (like they even have anything to prove), but you only have to be in there a few days to actually see it happen.
Removed by mod
Literally who gives a fuck
I do.
Anyone who uses sophist name calling like “neo nazi” can just fuck right off in my world.
That shows clearly their intent is a personal attack and not a search for understanding/knowledge/truth.
Removed by mod
This drama has never brought any good and just brings down everyone involved. He clearly has some issues and that doesn’t need advertising. And that includes me he’s also called an undercover agent or whatever that’s against graphene because I like Firefox. In fact these comments will probably find a way back to him somehow, it’s better to just not feed these things.
Removed by mod
Stop feeding the drama then
Removed by mod
Cringe
You people won’t lay off strcat jfc
It’s the same issue with a lot of open-source software projects. Many use proprietary/closed-source services to communicate with users or develop the software itself. It’s quite ironic, really. 🤦♂️
deleted by creator
