Rishi Sunak is considering introducing some of the world’s toughest anti-smoking measures that would in effect ban the next generation from ever being able to buy cigarettes, the Guardian has learned.
Whitehall sources said the prime minister was looking at measures similar to those brought in by New Zealand last December. They involved steadily increasing the legal smoking age so tobacco would end up never being sold to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009.
Creating a new illegal drug market.
In fairness, smoking tobacco is one of the few routes of administration where outlawing makes sense. The overall societal cost is very high, even for non-smokers, as in second-hand smokers and cigarette butts littering. It’s one of the few substances that health experts often recommend to make as unattractive as possible, be it through taxation or law.
I don’t really mind vaping or heating that much, I’d be fine with making cigarettes illegal while keeping the alternatives. Unfortunately, latest legislation has imposed higher burdens on the latter while doing jack about smoking.
Using the litter aspects of cigarettes as a reason to curb smoking has always been a tough one for me. Say someone quits smoking and takes up vaping. Now we have introduced plastic waste & to an extent e-waste in the form of batteries in the disposable vapes.
I don’t have an answer to it but I have at least thought about how there is no 100% environmentally friendly alternative outside of smoking straight tobacco leaf in rolling papers.
The “disposable” vapes are a different issue that needs to be tackled. I’m pretty sure that a meaningful deposit (5 or 10 euros) and the obligation for every seller to accept returns would solve the problem.
It works for beer cans!
In my part of the US, we hardly ever see beer or soda containers in litter. We do see liquor bottles, wine bottles, and sports-drink bottles as litter. Guess which drink containers have a deposit and cash redemption and which don’t?
The “bottle bill” works. It creates incentives for all sorts of people, from frugal homeowners to homeless folks, to collect and return containers. Applying it to other products that show up in litter would just make sense, especially dangerous ones like vape batteries or cartridges.
That is the most reasonable route. A “core charge” type of model where you get the addition fee waived if you bring in an old one.
Same scheme they use with car batteries and some auto parts. Although, some auto parts have a core charge as part of a dubious ploy to prevent the aftermarket from getting the headlight for duplication.
I’m not doubting you, but like, what r&d firm is gonna go, welp, this $50 core charge is too much for us, guess we won’t do it.
I forget what Chevy it was, but they just released a new model and the $2,500 headlight came with a $500 core.
Source: I ordered it.
I mean smoking itself isn’t environmentally friendly. You’re taking all the nicotine and smashing it with oxygen, producing lots of carbon particulates including CO2 and CO - greenhouse gases. Yes, it’s only a tiny amount, but you don’t get that with vaping. With vaping you just extract whole molecules, rather than breaking things down, at least as long as the temperature is properly controlled.
A good vape should have next to no waste. The vape itself should not be disposable, and batteries should last a year minimum even with heavy use. That just leaves whatever container you get your liquid in, which wouldn’t be hard to recycle. Alternatively you could use a dry herb vape, along with pipe tobacco - but if we’re honest if you have a dry herb vape you’re probably not putting tobacco in it. You’re going to put in things like lavender and thyme, of course.
You can always ban disposable vapes? Requiring anyone that wants to vape to carry around those massive refillable batteries would do wonders to discourage people picking up the habit.
There are refillable vapes that aren’t that size. Though you do throw away the coil/juice container.
Haven’t seen one of em biguns in a while.
Using the litter aspects of cigarettes as a reason to curb smoking has always been a tough one for me.
Tell me you’ve never had to clean up after smokers without telling me you’ve never had to clean up after smokers.
Smoked cigarettes for 15 years and chewing tobacco for 5 years. Try again.
So people had to clean up after you is what you’re saying.
You’re forgetting the harm from all the fires (house, grass, and forest) caused by smokers too.
My understanding is that cig smokers actually save our NHS a fair bit of cash, as they die early & rapidly, and they’re a boon to the Exchequer due to the huge sin taxes we have
My country already has a cigarette black market for cheaper imported cigs. Banning them won’t work it’ll only make it harder to regulate the industry.
Once you spark up it’s not obvious at a glance if the cigarette is duty paid or not. There’s a marked difference between a lit cigarette and no cigarette.
People will just smoke in bushes. Teens already do so they don’t get caught by their parents.
So by your logic, cigarettes shouldn’t be taxed at all?
Also, the way this is proposed kind of avoids the issue. People importing cigarettes already smoke, and they’ll be able to in the future because this only targets people born after a certain date to deter them from starting.
No, because I don’t believe a solution that captures every single black market cigarette is possible. The best solution is to heavily regulate the industry and spread accurate information about cigarettes and I’d also personally ban cigarettes in movies under a certain age rating unless essential to the character in some way such as they develop cancer later in the movie or something.
I think a larger more unnoticed social harm is the damage it does to single payer/socialized medicine. When you only have one insurance pool every person receiving healthcare related to smoking is funding that could have gone to treating diseases that aren’t as easily preventable.
The same goes for things like diabetes, which is absolutely destroying medicare. Right now one out of every three medicare dollars are being used to treat a completely preventable disease for the vast majority of those inflicted with it.
I think that if you want to smoke or drink tons of soda, that’s fine. But we shouldn’t be lessening the scope of healthcare coverage for other people just because of your bad habits. Either the industry making the money needs to subsidize the healthcare cost of their consumers, or the consumers themselves need to do it.
At least over here, taxation on cigarettes offsets the direct cost caused by smoking according to experts. That’s why I left it out, I do believe you’re allowed to be stupid and smoke. But keep the damage to yourself and make sure non-smokers aren’t paying for it one way or another.
So yeah your demand is at least partially already reality over here.
I thought smokers ended up being cheaper for healthcare in the long run because they don’t live as long?
For private healthcare maybe? A lot of the reasons private insurance groups are even somewhat functional is because the vast majority of healthcare cost are shifted over to medicare once people start falling apart.
Most things like cardiovascular disease and lung cancer happen in the late 50s or older. People who aren’t yet old enough for medicare will file for disability to access it earlier in the event of severe illnesses.
I’m fairly sure cig smokers are a net gain on the Exchequer
For-Profit healthcare is the scam here, not people drinking or smoking “too much,” whatever that means to you personally.
For some. Some would ultimately quit and some would never start.
Honestly, tobaco is pretty crap as a recreational drug. It would surprise me if non-smokers would go out of their way to get black market cigarettes like they would with alcohol if it got banned.
There already is a cigarette black market for cheaper imported cigs atleast in my country.
there’s a black market in Australia, but it’s very small and penalties for suppliers are so high there’s barely any incentive to run it, with a dwindling customer base
Do u not think that a factor of that is that people are still able to get cigs legally, even if they r expensive.
you can make it illegal to sell and only a fine for getting caught. Major retailers won’t do it, cornershops(“/bodegas” for the US) that sell under the counter will do it until they get caught, new ones won’t bother because they want their business to be a success, and honestly, probably make more money on chewing gum than black market fags
nicotine high isn’t worth the effort to a dealer to sell if you’re used to selling fent, coke, weed, triple sod, clarky cat etc
gone within a generation. if you really want it, go to France, smuggle it. it’s probably not worth it.
bodegas for the US
Mostly just the New York City area. In the Boston area they’re “packies” (not an ethnic slur – it’s “package store”) and most of the rest of the country it’s a “convenience store” or “corner store”.
Black market cigarettes is a very real thing actually.
fair comment but so is black market everything — from heroin to beanie babies.
Yea and the black market is one of the main reason things are harmful. 1 they r unregulated so your getting God knows what 2 they’re most likely connected to gangs or your countries version of them so ur prolly funding then and 3 it creates a stigma around the drug causing addicts to be less likely to seek out help
right but people still murder, even though murder is illegal
no one thinks that murder should be legal (except for the guys from Alfred Hitchcock’s Rope)
Drugs are a personal vice which the person can do without ever harming another person. Murder is murder. I don’t think it should be legal for drug addicts to steal for their drugs, even tho some will whether or not its legal because that involves harming another person.
Except we have cleaner alternatives in the form of vaping. This isn’t like prohibition where all alcoholic beverages were banned, or like drug prohibition where all narcotics and hallucinogens are only accessible for medical need.
If you need nicotine, you can still buy it. Just not in cigarette form.
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Do it. First decision I’ve heard him make that isn’t about making profit for himself… unless he has invested in vape shops … ah that makes more sense. Fuck Rishi
we have already taken steps to reduce smoking rates. This includes providing 1 million smokers in England with free vape kits via our world-first ‘swap to stop’ scheme
Which family member do you think invested heavily in whichever company got the contract for these vapes?
YES WASTE MORE MONEH ON WAR ON DRUGS!!! It’s not like it’s completely ineffective and is literally killing people🥰😜
If they want to ban tobacco let them first legalise weed, acid, and psylocybin. That’d be a fair trade.
Why are cocaine fent oxy schedule 2?
Legitimate medical uses, at least for fent and oxy
Cocaine can be used in dentistry in a gel if you have certain allergies
The derivates of the cocaine extracted from the coca leaves imported by Coca Cola are used in a variety of ways; from dentistry to eye surgery.
This seems like an American thing. We don’t need to a soft drink company to import medical supplies or materials. But I didn’t know it was used in eye surgery, I’m interested in learning more about that.
It is a very American story.
Coca Cola uses coca leaves for the flavor. The government banned cocaine because of racism. Coca Cola had to remove the cocaine because of capitalism and made an arrangement with the government instead of going out of business thanks to corruption.
Then why’s marijuana schedule 3?
All these progressively restrictive laws have been good to me. I’m of the generation who remembers smoking on planes, and my grandmother smoking in her hospital bed.
I was probably at two packs a day in the nineties because it was cheap and acceptable.
These days, a pack will last me a week, and I only ever smoke in my backyard at home, in clothing dedicated to the habit that get washed separately from my other clothes.
Bans and social stigma have forced me into near non-smoking without ever consciously trying.
Do I ever have an occasional night of celebratory drinking where I exceed that trend? You betcha, and I don’t feel sorry about it. But I’m glad that I’m not the chain smoking beef jerky with a voice three octaves lower than it should be that my grandparents were.
I still believe that people should be able to enjoy vice and that you shouldn’t be completely ostracized from society for not living a perfect organic free range fair trade intoxicant free perfectly vegan whatever else life.
But to phase out tobacco as it has been going, I have found that I haven’t minded at all in the long term.
(As to the occasional celebratory night, for completely different reasons, I hardly drink anymore. Also was not a conscious choice or effort. It just lost its attraction for me)
What’s a “progressively restrictive law”?
The first smoking bans were sections of airplanes
Then they were for domestic flights under two hours
Then they were for domestic flights
Then they were for all flights
The first restaurant bans were only the dining area
Then they included the bar area
Then they hit stand alone bars
The smoking bans you know today did not hit all at once. They got progressively more restrictive over a period of many years.
Back many many moons ago in the year 2008 I traveled to the great city Vancouver to see a friend. They took me to a venue to see a band and cigarette smoking wasn’t allowed.
But you bet your fucking ass there was plenty of people smoking weed. Which seems to be just fine…breathing in second hand smoke…which is the main reason these tabacco restrictions are in place.
EDIT
I don’t care if you smoke weed, only it has the same second hand smoke issue tabacco does and should follow the same rule.
It smells so much worse too
In the US, cigarette smoking had already peaked and begun to decline before smoking bans. The bans almost certainly accelerated the decline, though.
A law that is slightly more restrictive than the last that will be followed by a slightly more restrictive law.
Stopping cigarette companies giving away packs of 5 outside colleges if you could prove you were over 16 was a sensible progressively restrictive law that followed to them not being displayed in shops and having warnings in the packets for example.
Man, my freshman year of college, in California of all places, we had cigarette vending machines in our freshman dorm. The only smoking policy in your dorm room was that your roommate had to be cool with it. Zero designated non-smoking rooms. There was a smoking section inside the cafeteria. You couldn’t smoke during class, but the professors could smoke in their offices and we had a coffee bar in the building that was one huge cloud.
How things have changed, eh?
Tried going cold Turkey today, made it like 14 hours.
It’s the right thing to do. It’s a very hard addiction to escape. I know a guy who beat heroin and can’t beat nicotine.
It took me years to quit, I slowly cut cigs out of my daily activities.
Good on you! That’s awesome. thankfully I’m not inhaling anything anymore, but damn if it’s hard to quit the substance entirely. Big ups to everyone who made it out though.
Yeah its tough, just do your best and stick with it. Now my only nicotine is from a cigar a few times a year.
Nice, what type? I’m not a cigar guy, but if I ever encounter a Cohiba I’m going to try it.
Just random cigars from samplers like Rocky Patel, Oliva, Romeo y Julieta. Had a Cohiba my buddy brought back a while back. It was good but not mind blowing.
I knew someone who kicked a cocaine habit and stopped drinking alcohol, but died of cancer because he couldn’t quit smoking.
One day at a time. Keep trying. It’s absolutely worth it.
I recently quit. I’m about 6 weeks since my last patch. A relapse is exceedingly unlikely.
Going cold turkey would never have worked for me. Cut down > switch to patches > taper off.
About bloody time. Cigarettes are disgusting and do nothing but immense harm to those who smoke them, and those around them.
Sunak is a tosser, but cigarettes are a no brainer. Sure, old boomers still smoke them, but only the dumbest young people still smoke, and most of them use e-cigs (which are still bad, but nowhere remotely near as bad).
Several of my grandparents died before I could ever know them because of smoking, for example. Fuck smoking. Smoking kills.
Smoking is one of the very few things everyone is better off not doing.
Same with alcohol, but I don’t think we’re allowed to say that yet. Maybe one day!
American prohibition and the war on drugs has shown that toal band like that really just make consumption worse while piling a whole new slew of problems onto an existing issue.
I wholeheartedly agree with ya there, but would smoking be carried on in the same fashions as drugs and booze?
I quit years ago after thirty years of smoking and while it was hard as fuck, and i was nasty as a human for a while, I didn’t get the urge to find plug for smokes or off up ass for a pack of butts. Or kill anyone for that matter.
Here in Canada the jump in price has reservation smokes selling like fucking crazy. My old Racist as fuck neighbor bent his morals just enough to say his buying them was justified. I am pretty sure old Dar would drop and blow a herpes staff for a smoke, so I am probably already wrong to question it.
While people may not be willing to kill or rob someone to get a pack of smokes, there will absolutely be a black market for them that will be rife with unsavory characters that will. I live an hour away from a recreational marijuana state and it has destroyed the local black market for pot as anyone who wants to get high can just drive across the state line and get their own pot. No more sketchy drug dealers pushing other substances, no more police stings to catch teenagers buying dope.
Buying controlled and reasonably dangerous substances from licensed retailers like a dispensary, grocery store, or even a gas station is a lot safer for everyone than trying to keep tabs on a black market. The danger of prohibition wasn’t alcoholics trying to find their next drink, it was mobsters like Capone trying to dominate the black market for popular goods.
Edit since i misread what you meant: Sure tobacco is on it’s way out as is, but nicotine consumption is still skyrocketing. I dont see how banning tobacco sales for anyine born after a certain date like Sunak is proposing will help anything. People under 30 are already way less likely to smoke tobacco but consume unhealthy quantities of nicotine anyway.
This just isn’t true though. Other countries ban alcohol and it doesn’t turn into what happened during American alcohol prohibition. Nor does it mean banning needs to be done like it was done during that period either. You people gotta start thinking a bit deeper about stuff.
What countries have successfully banned alcohol? Besides Muslim countries that employ capital punishment.
The Chiapas state of Mexico.
Lol sure. The worst country in the world for narcotics trafficking?
Do you pick out Alabama when you talk about the entirety of the US? Or do you tend to be less xenophobic and less racist?
Ban alcohol too or it’s hypocrisy once again.
Checks history
Wait a minute…
.
I’m very pro-legalization but honestly tobacco is a shit drug. No real high, very addictive and awful health effects. I don’t see many people going through the hassle of maintaining their addiction illegally if it was banned everywhere.
.
You could say its harder to quit cigs because it’s more publicly available though.
I think the reason tobacco is so hard to kick is just because there’s no immediate deleterious effects. Why quit this week when you could quit next week or next month?
I know, I am one :( But I also know that if I had to go to a dealer to buy cigarettes, I couldn’t smoke in public and it was as socially frowned upon as hard drugs I’d have a much easier time quitting.
banning is never the answer. people will migrate to a different dissociative substance and it’ll increase bootlegs and criminal activity.
Didn’t he just say yesterday that he didn’t want the government to butt into people’s lives? I thought that was why he abandoned all those laws which didn’t exist. You know, the meat tax and the 7 bins xD
The (stopped?) trend in the US had been to tax cigs to make them unaffordable. Just before the last major hike, my brand was about $5/pack. Now it is $10-12. So glad I quit.
Is that a viable strategy, to continue tax/price hikes?
Did it stop you smoking? If so, then yes it worked.
Every 10% increase in cigarette tax results a 4% reduction in consumption among adults, and a 7% decrease amongst youth. Source
It was a minor motivator for me. Bigger ones were things like not dying and my son.
Interesting stats, thanks.
It’s a hella regressive tax though… and we know social ad campaigns actually work.
I went to Niagara Falls in 2004, and I was a little perplexed with the stop smoking campaign flyers attached to the back of individual cigarette packs (pictures of rotten teeth, black lung, etc.). Ended going over to New York to buy smokes because they were SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive and without the flyers.
I mean taxes change habits, there is no doubt about that. Some people quit, some people buy illegal cigarettes imported from the south, others buy Indian cigarettes, others stop smoking, some roll their own with pipe tobacco that no one has ever smoked In a pipe. But the ad campaigns worked surprisingly well for long term smoke cessation. They really did nip it in the butt
I was paying $14 a pack when I quit 6 weeks ago in NYS. The gum is working out great so far and I feel so much better. 17 years smoking regularly. They should be banned everywhere, sorry fellow smokers. It’s a disgusting, nasty habit that is incredibly hard to break.
I’ve been on zyns for a while now, my lungs do feel so much better. It’s hard to quit the substance, but it’s easier than ever to take it in without inhaling anything.
Good for you! Enjoy your journey to better health!
prohibition still doesn’t work
Good
Legalise weed but ban tobacco!
Just saying.
Alcohol is a bigger problem in the UK.
Alcohol is a problem most places. Best thing I ever did for myself was quit drinking entirely.
I remember when they had the same idea around 2014, to ban smoking for anyone born in the UK from 2000 onwards. That would have been easier to enforce.
