OK so if you feel Lemmy has been trending towards hostility in the past weeks ppease here me out, interact in the comments but keep it civil.
Lemmy vs Reddit
We all had our reasons to move to Lemmy. What I remember clearly from the beginning of the summer was that we were all praising the tone. Over the years, Reddit has become increasingly toxic - most of all in the comment section. To me, that was what made Lemmy special. Even with less content, the general vobe was what made me come back every time.
clash of the clans
Due to the nature of the fediverse, we get to interact with people with different backgrounds and dofferent ideas. Potentially an incredibly enriching experience for everyone. Anti-defed lemmings defend staying federated with everyone for that precise reason, which I really get. But lately the vibe has turned sour. Every post that has the slightest political undertone becomes this big us-vs-them show. Please stop
discussion vs. shitshow
I am not arguing for stopping discussing our opinions. I also get the whole they don’t have downvotes thing. But can we please treat eachother with dignity, and when writing comments say ‘I believe’ or ‘in my opinion’ instead of ‘you all this or that’?
I think this is the only way forward if we want to prevent everyone from personally blocking a lot of instances in the furure.
I’m new to Lemmy but it just feels more like Reddit in the sense that if you’re not part of the “hive mind”, then you’re just told to “go away” instead of participating in actual discussion.
It’s caused me to post less than when I initially joined. There’s not as much activity on Lemmy than on the Reddit equivalent in the main “channel” I read. So I’ve found myself wandering back to Reddit but I don’t post or comment much there either.
Yeah a couple of months ago a lot of lemmings were talking about how they were commenting a lot here while they never did on Reddit. I really think there has been a big shift going on and that has been an immense loss for the platform.
An immense loss for which platform, Reddit or Lemmy you meant?
Why not both?
I think part of this problem is that the USA has split more or less into two different cultures that have developed different languages to the point that they don’t even understand each other and what seems a rational argument in one language is perceived as hate speech in the other.
Europe is going into the same direction but it’s not as extreme yet.
I’m finding it’s the opposite. Depending on what thread I stumble into I’ll get wildly different takes
When people explicitly participate in bad faith, I frankly don’t get what’s so terrible about showing them the door, or in this case, turning off their megaphone line to other instances. If their behavior is great, terrific, super-acceptable and cool where it comes from - wonderful! It can stay there, and the rest of us can see less childish trolling. Because that is 100% “their thing” at an instance level.
Whatever excuses, “boo hoo Reddit was so mean to us years ago”, whatever crocodile tears that “it’s not everyone”, whatever “eThIcAl ImPlIcAtIoNs” of blocking or defederating - I don’t give a shit about excuses trolls make, sorry not sorry. Being taken seriously is not a Right, let alone when you obviously just want to dick with people. “Yes, sure, let me get into Serious Debating Position right in front of this boxing glove on a giant spring I just watched you set up.”
Every discussion about this is not only provoked by their consistently shitty behavior, it also tends to get derailed, trolled and sealioned across instances proving the point immediately. Droves of people are fed up with the whole thing - or would be, if the threadiverse even had “droves” of people left. It is directly and indirectly harming participation: surprise, most people do not want another 4chan, whatever the paintjob.
Their alleged, tragic, Reddit-discriminated backstory seems a lot less convincing going by their current behavior. Instance gets federated, people immediately start to troll and “dunk” like the brave Internet Warriors that they are, and are not subtle about it. When notified “that’s not really cool here, could you not?” the response is a solid “UP YOURS” because they’re Just That Cool and/or literally “Owning The Libs”. This remind you of anything?
The threadiverse was something I’d idly mention to friends (at least the more political and leftist ones, because even before this shitshow, it was relentlessly politically shrill as fuck) and hoped I’d eventually get to seriously recommend. Now I just can’t recommend it to anyone: a dying, troll-infested, technologically suspicious mess, circling the drain.
Lemmy see those nuts. Ha! Goteem!
This i completely agree with.
Just recently had an argument where i voiced my opinion (albeit not in a really intelligent way at first i admit) and i immediately got a fat load of sarcasm from a person who disagreed with me. Said person thought i was a troll. I tried to convince them multiple times that i am serious and in fact not trolling but i think they still don’t believe me. It got to a point where it was so cumbersome to continue the argument that i just stopped replying.
I’d really prefer if everyone could be a bit more civil/professional in a disagreement.
As with most social media, I think the voting system makes it worse. There is always an element of “playing to the audience,” in that the easiest way to get validation (votes, boosts, replies) is to make sure everyone thinks you’re morally or intellectually superior over the person you’re talking to, whereas an actual normal conversation would be focused on the exchange of new ideas and perspectives.
Stronger moderation could help, and filtering the less civil communities could help, but I suspect it’s just a natural consequence of having a built-in validation system that applies to every post and comment everywhere. As engagement in the fediverse grows overall, I could see it getting worse mainly because of more ‘vote-seeking’ behavior.
I upvoted you, hope it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But I really do think you are right. There is something in our nature making us want to be seen.
Is there a client that lets you easily block vote counts and buttons?
I remember RedReader did this for the bad old place, and it greatly improved my QoL while browsing. I only looked at what people were saying.
I always avoid communities related to politics because of that reason. There are other reasons, like a big focus on US politics or being feed with politics 24 hours per day every day.
But I noticed an increasing amount of hostility in other communities as well, not related directly to politics. For example, in those communities about Ukraine, there is always the usual tankie spreading strong words and what not. Or when there is a post about defederating certain instance, it seems that people take it personally and swear words are easily launched.
People can say the same things in a good way, being nice and polite. There is no need to troll or make others feel shitty. It also depends on what instance you’re on, but for the most part, it’s on us how we want this to become into: either a civil place to discuss everything, or Reddit 2.0.
Hard to avoid it when the morons brigade every post.
I’ve only seen brigades from hexbear on other instances I don’t belong, but I understand that it’s a thing we need to deal with, using proper and more effective moderation tools. Defederation can also be a solution, temporary in this case, until the admins of that instance control, somehow, the brigaders so they stop brigading.
I mean, I can behave in any way I want in my own house, because it’s my own house. But when I’m in someone else’s house, I never think about behaving in that same way, unless I want to face consequences, even before a court of justice. Instances are like houses, and communities are like rooms, and you have to follow the rules of the place you’re interacting on.
Yesterday evening I was feeling the same way, so I started blocking users that are clearly posting inflammatory or aggressively brigadey content (note: not to be confused with things I don’t agree with. It’s about tone and tact, not content), or things that I find annoying to see over and over like the same trollish meme and emoji images. After only an evening of doing that, my Lemmy experience has been worlds better. I did notice a particular instance being the trend which makes me look forward to instance blocking, though at the moment I’d prefer to still do so on an individual user basis.
note: not to be confused with things I don’t agree with. It’s about tone and tact, not content
I’ve got to be honest, I find this kind of wild. That the tone a comment is said in is more important than the actual content of the message.
That assessment is precisely backwards for me.
I share the same view on this topic with the person you’re replying to and appreciate that you chose to type this out the way you did instead of something like ‘lmfao, wtf?’, which could have also signalled disagreement.
I agree . I mean I expect people to be passionate about some topics… ie climate change, wage gap, fascists, big pharma, etc. If it’s not spicy you’re doing it wrong.
(TL;DR: I’m blocking users I feel are significantly cluttering Lemmy with trolling or annoying posts of no substance, not ones that have different ideas than my own. Acknowledging different ideas and perspectives is good.)
I feel like we’re already being hurt by algorithms and whatnot only sending us what we want to hear and filtering out opposing views or ideas. If someone disagrees with me or has an idea different from how I already think, I should know that someone is out there who thinks differently than I do. Maybe I’ll even learn something or come to appreciate a perspective I hadn’t considered before. It can be interesting and even enlightening to see differing viewpoints, and that’s part of what’s so fun to me about the Internet. We can easily see there are all sorts of people out there with different thoughts and ideas.
We’re all bound to lose our cool sometimes, but if I see a poster consistently being inflammatory or trollish, I don’t find value in trying to digest that kind of exchange. Some people may enjoy watching the setting of the bait and seeing others walk into the trap of engaging. It’s just not the type of content I’m into and I found it was becoming increasingly common so I started blocking users that I felt were consistently producing these kinds of situations.
This comment is weird because it doesn’t really follow from what I wrote.
I just find it strange that people value the tone of a message more that the content. Surely the content of the message is far, far, FAR more important than the tone it’s conveyed in?
Like, when people post genocidal rhetoric, it’s not better because they say it in a polite fashion. And it’s not worse if they were raging while they said it. It’s bad because of the content of the message.
But then people say stuff like you did, and it’s kind of unbelievable to me because it seems like valuing the lipstick more than the pig it’s slapped on.
I feel like we’re already being hurt by algorithms and whatnot only sending us what we want to hear and filtering out opposing views or ideas.
Wow. My experience is quite precisely the opposite. With algorithms on most social media constantly trying to shove “opposing views” in my face at all times. Except those “opposing views” are usually that I am a danger to society and should not be allowed to exist as an LGBTQ person. Because that is what drives engagement.
So uhm, maybe an echo chamber is a privilege you enjoy, but it’s not universal.
If someone disagrees with me or has an idea different from how I already think, I should know that someone is out there who thinks differently than I do. Maybe I’ll even learn something or come to appreciate a perspective I hadn’t considered before. It can be interesting and even enlightening to see differing viewpoints, and that’s part of what’s so fun to me about the Internet. We can easily see there are all sorts of people out there with different thoughts and ideas.
But… I genuinely do not understand how you can say this? Because you have primed yourself to ignore anyone who disagrees with you with any degree of vigour. Some disagreements are not going to be civil. But those are often the MOST important disagreements! The ones that people are passionate and angry about.
I’m not saying every troll has something of value to say. But in my experience, you have it precisely backwards. The people who are angry are more likely to be sincere in their beliefs, while the dickhead who types like they’re participating in a debate club is usually the one trolling.
I can see where you’re coming from. I think you might be conflating the idea of what I consider worth taking the effort to block a Lemmy user over with what I might personally consider good ideas or opinions of inherent value. If I see a single post spewing genocidal rhetoric I’m not going to block the user and think that my blocking them is somehow going to make a difference in the underlying issue. I might want to see future the responses to their post (hopefully arguing against it), or I’ll just scroll past it.
Now if I’m seeing that user consistently posting that same kind of thing as I browse around Lemmy, sure, I’ll block them even if their posts are written in the most tactful and respectful way possible, because at that point it’s become repetitive clutter that I don’t want to constantly see while browsing Lemmy. The user blocking part comes in when something has become a consistent annoyance or frustration, because I find it’s not worth the effort to block every user who posts something awful the first time I see it rather than just moving on.
Because you have primed yourself to ignore anyone who disagrees with you with any degree of vigour.
We might be experiencing some semantics issues. I don’t equate angry or frustrated posts to inflammatory and trollish posts. I’m talking about when people are smugly trying to “own” or “dunk on” someone, or being excessively rude and accusatory (I can imagine some situations where this might sometimes be considered justified), or baiting a reaction trap. And I’m generalizing, not arguing a hard unbreakable rule. I agree there’s nothing wrong with getting angry or frustrated about important issues that are a real problem, and I admit some of my most frustrating interactions have been with people who use the approach of “I’m being civil (in my argument for something awful, like genocidal rhetoric) and your angry response means I win the argument by default because I am being ‘reasonable’ while you are not.” I really do get frustrated by that rhetoric playbook tactic. So I do think I see where you’re coming from.
I do agree we’ve had different experiences, and that none are universal. I was caught in an “echo chamber” that almost had me voting in support of California’s Proposition 8 (ban of same-sex marriage) back in the day and had I not been willing to listen to opposing views going against what I had been raised to believe in, I might still be trapped in that environment that I still see some of my old friends and family stuck in.
I won’t go into details but very quickly Lemmy has changed for the worse. I don’t see it as that different from Reddit now
i think the issue is fundamental to the “meta forum” concept both lemmy and reddit share.
when comunitys are small, they mostly consist of people that are intrested, and usually knowledgeable enough to participate in discussion.
but as size and thus discoverability of a community increases, posts start trending more and more.
so less informed, and more reactionairy users (if not straight up trolls) that browse r/all start flooding the posts and dilute propper discourse with bad uninformed takes.
ti;dr essentially, reddit style plattforms turn into twitter for big communities.
Yeah that is it well articulated… I’ve noticed recently more and more people that seem to only want to argue… And very often not even about the actual topic at hand.
Agreed.
Well put.
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In the early days of Reddit it was said that the voting buttons were there to reflect whether the poster was adding to or subtracting from the discussion. I really liked that idea because you could upvote someone you completely disagree with because they were having a conversation in good faith.
Instead, the voting buttons devolved into an agreement button and a popularity contest. The toxicity is obvious here when a post is heavily downvoted for disagreement with the masses, despite being a bona fide entry into the conversation.
Slashdot always had an interesting take on the idea with max +5/-5 and the whole “outstanding”, “funny”, “informative”, etc tags that could be applied. This allows for several meta conversations - the jokes and memes, the serious, the philosophical and more with our interfering with one another and lets the readers absorb the topic based on the level of their mood.
I wish we could somehow encourage and promote content that makes an effort to understand and contribute, or even share a differing opinion (politely). And highly discourage nasty replies.
Is it an inevitable problem with scale?
It is inevitable with scaling quickly. In the early days of the internet there were unwritten (and later written) rules how to behave. And people who didn’t accept those even after being educated were usually banned for a time.
This worked because the early internet users were mostly us nerds and we tend to be able to have civilized discussions.
Every time new users came, those were quickly educated and if they didn’t fit in they either left or built their own communities.
Of cause there were always trolls but they were few and quickly isolated.
The problem with people who couldn’t behave started when people came in more quickly than they could be educated. And those who knew the rules didn’t want to repeat the rules 20 times a day to some newcomers. So either a community stopped accepting new members or started accepting shitstorms.
Perhaps we are setting the entry bar too low. Many places in my city have gatekeepers that do not allow shirtless people to enter. The internet tends to gatekeep via subscription or employ moderators, if those elements are missing the discourse deteriorates with scale. I wouldn’t mind paying for a service such as Lemmy if it maintained order. It’s also possible to create cryptographic identities so users can assure their historical reputation using signed PGP, in this way dark web markets have reduced the problem of fraudulent sock puppets.
I fully appreciate the desire for more civil discussion.
But please be aware that tone policing has been used as an offensive weapon against many marginalized groups: “We get that you want to fight for your rights, but could you please do that in the form of civil discourse?” That phrase is almost always heard when years of civil discourse lead nowhere.
I came here to say something similar, this “no politics” bullshit is such a privileged take.
Never mind that many of the largest communities on reddit had a similar policy, and it didn’t stop them being toxic cesspits, because it’s never about policing those who support the status quo, but only ever those who stand up to it.
‘no politics’ means someone is a coward at best.
I get what your are saying. Let me just offer some nuance. As I said in the post above, I think our diversity can be a huge strength. Discussing ideas and having an open environment to do so is something really good. I just think a lot of people come to these discussions just to speak, not to listen. Also, divisiveness and dogmatic political discourse is metastasizing over to all kinds of communities that were (in my view) created with no political intent.
So it’s becoming increasingly hard to get away from this toxicity without defederating or blocking a huge amount of instances, and I think that’s a shame. That’s all I’m trying to say.
I get ya. I’m also privileged enough that I used to be able to ignore politics unless it was really in my face, because most of it didn’t affect me directly.
But some people’s actual identities, bodies, their continued existence, is political - whether they like it or not.
So I’m sorry. We live in interesting times. Historical times. Some people feel we might be at the end of history. It’s going to get loud.
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