I don’t really see any major issues China has that aren’t being actively worked on, big or small. China of course has problems, but these aren’t static and permanent. China is both socialist and anti-imperialist, so in that way it makes sense.
Zoom out, 100 years pass. What do you think is going to get worse in China? What is China doing that’s actively progressing in a bad direction?
I think you’re confusing my condemnation of imperialist countries as being unable to address their problems due to the faulty mode of production they rely on, with the belief that these are simply “negatives.” I see them in the same way all societies have problems, the difference is that some societies are actually able to address these problems by putting needs over profits, and this goes back to the mode of production.
Why do you think I constantly centered imperialism as a problem unable to be solved without revolution?
It’s not just China though, you approach other socialist countries the same way.
You say China’s problems aren’t static or permanent, but you don’t append such disclaimers or framing to issues outside of socialist regions.
I don’t see China as anti-imperialist, but I’ll drop the words “imperialist” and “fascist” altogether for the purposes of this discussion since we use it to mean different things.
Not everything is always changing significantly, some things can stay the same over time, but to answer the question, I’d say I see state surveillance, suppression of criticism, censorship, and things like that getting worse in China. Though this is kind of something I see happening globally, I’m inclined to believe this is worse in China because it’s already etched into the system at a scale more prolific than in the west.
You can routinely find criticisms of America online but China censors this. You do not personally take offense to this because in your view the capitalist should be suppressed (“communism is the dictatorship of the proletariat”), but I do. I will also say that it is this framing which makes it such that one has to be a capitalist in order to criticize the Chinese state (and thus be censored), but this isn’t true; I’m not capitalist but I would certainly criticize the state. I am staunchly against the notion of a dictatorship altogether, but this is something not everyone is uncomfortable with, I suppose.
My issue is that you don’t frame away the negatives that you mention of non-socialist countries as being part of progress or being actively worked on the way you do for socialist countries.
I don’t see China as being innocent and I retain that China is violent and aggressive when it finds the opportunity, and I’ve seen examples of this prior but I’d have to research to get into that w citations.
I treat all countries the same way, my evaluation of them changes depending on the country.
As for your critique of China, surveillance, suppression of misinformation and capitalist viewpoints, etc. are directed against capitalists. It’s a working class state wielding authority against reactionaries. The west also uses state authority against class enemies, it just so happens that these class enemies are the working classes. Opposing socialist democracies is a reactionary viewpoint, even if you consider yourself to be anti-capitalist you’d still be going against both the will of the majority and the working classes.
As for imperialist countries, they aren’t generally improving. The reason for this is dependence on imperialism, and putting profit over need. They cannot effectively improve the lives of their people. This isn’t me treating them differently, but instead evaluating them based on their own (lack of) merit.
As for China being “violent and aggressive given the opportunity,” this is silly and unfounded.
I assumed you would say China’s suppression and censorship is okay because it’s anti-capitalist and I mentioned why that wasn’t an adequate explanation. One could criticize the state without being a capitalist. It is not reactionary for one to criticize the state, unless you are asking for unconditional acceptance of the state. If criticizing the state is considered to be going against the will of the majority, then majority be damned.
I also assumed you would say the west does the same thing, and I mentioned why that wasn’t really true either. Despite their suppression you can still easily find and access criticisms of the state within their countries whereas this is not the case in China.
In my view it is impossible to have a balanced view of a state if all dissent and criticism is cracked down. Labelling all dissent and criticism as capitalist is a wholly inadequate and frankly infantile response.
On western countries not improving: I would say you’re also not considering their existing state of development; it may be easier to develop undeveloped/less developed regions than it is to develop already developed regions further, I would expect plateaus to be a thing in any country’s timeline of development to occur. Some decades from now when China reaches the same level of development one could see plateaus there too.
Again, you can believe yourself to be anti-capitalist, but simply calling yourself one is not an adequate explanation for opposing proletarian state power. Further, you can absolutely find criticism against the CPC in China, and the west also censors to a dramatic degree against the proletariat. Censorship is less transparent and more malicious in the west.
Not all dissent is capitalist. What’s absurd is pretending that all criticism is censored in China, which is why I have been repeating over and over that you have no grounds to stand on to criticize China. You have no idea what China is like, just what you hear online, and as a consequence you have an utterly one-sided view.
As for imperialist countries not developing further, it’s because imperialism results in de-industrialization. The plataue for capitalist development was already reached, you need to transition to socialism to begin developing further. You continue to ignore real, material systems like imperialism, because you simply disagree with analyzing it as a stage in capitalism and instead wish to analyze it purely as a policy states take. This is not how imperialism works.
Really, it’s quite disappointing that this is what you seem to take away from this. You have a view of China that doesn’t map to reality, and you have a view of imperialism that doesn’t map to reality either. Without analyzing both concretely, we can’t really move forward.
Both of these critiques could be applied to your views as well.
You can believe the state of China to be for the working class, but that isn’t an adequate explanation for censorship.
Despite censorship in the west, as I pointed out earlier, you can still find extensive criticisms of trump and the American regime in China.
you can absolutely find criticism against the CPC in China
Any examples of open media criticism against CPC in China? Direct and detailed criticisms of Xi Jinping would be the icing on the cake.
You have an utterly one-sided and unrealistically positive view of China yourself, I’ve been saying that for a while now. It’s just in the opposite direction.
I am not a Chinese national, so of course I am going to be getting my information about it from the internet, as I assume is the case for you. Or have you lived there yourself?
Censorship is less transparent in the west.
Highly doubt that. China and transparency are not words I’d put together.
I am choosing to ignore the term “imperialism” because we don’t share an understanding on the term, and I’m not boxing myself into a communist outlook to discuss things.
Both of these critiques could be applied to your views as well.
No, actually, they cannot.
You can believe the state of China to be for the working class, but that isn’t an adequate explanation for censorship.
You’re right, belief alone is not adequate. What’s instead adequate is analyzing the mode of production and distribution in China, the class character of the state, and the historical necessity to prevent capitalist disinformation from spreading uncontested. I don’t just believe China has a working class state based on hope alone, but based on concrete evidence. Over 90% of the public supports the government, and China is ranked even by western organizations as a thriving democracy even by western definitions of democracy:
Historically, capitalists have manipulated the press to spread disinformation. Radio Free Asia is an example primarily directed against China. In the USSR, Radio Free Europe contributed heavily towards pessimism regarding constructing socialism. Class struggle does not end under socialism, so the working classes need to continue to win the class war.
Despite censorship in the west, as I pointed out earlier, you can still find extensive criticisms of trump and the American regime in China.
Of course you’ll find extensive criticism of the west within China, the west is the world imperial hegemon.
Any examples of open media criticism against CPC in China? Direct and detailed criticisms of Xi Jinping would be the icing on the cake.
Criticism doesn’t work like that. People don’t generally make hit pieces. If you want an example of more liberal press in China that desires more liberalization, see South China Morning Post. Institutions are prevented from mouthing off, but people on the ground often consider political critique to be a national pass time. The difference between the west and China is that there is a national hope in China, rather than pessimism.
You have an utterly one-sided and unrealistically positive view of China yourself, I’ve been saying that for a while now. It’s just in the opposite direction.
No, I do not. Frankly, I’ve done far more research into China than you have, and I don’t mean that in a dismissive way, but in the sense that I’ve actually had to grapple with my skepticism of China in the past. I already admitted to many currently existing problems in China, but you’ve continued to make baseless claims about “Chinese imperialism.”
I am not a Chinese national, so of course I am going to be getting my information about it from the internet, as I assume is the case for you. Or have you lived there yourself?
Correct, I have not lived there. That’s why I focus on not making authoritative claims denouncing China, and instead seek to learn what I can from the outside while focusing on changing the world I live in, the west. That’s where my activism takes me. Where we differ is that I have done far more study on Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, and the history of AES countries.
Highly doubt that. China and transparency are not words I’d put together.
Why not? Again, look at the polling from the Perception of Democracy index, China is ranked very favorably by its own people:
I am choosing to ignore the term “imperialism” because we don’t share an understanding on the term, and I’m not boxing myself into a communist outlook to discuss things.
You’ve committed to denying a concrete, materialist understanding of imperialism as a stage in capitalism. I’ve made it clear that imperialism is a necessary evolution within capitalism once it reaches the monopoly stage, with dominance of finance capital, and switches from export of commodity to export of capital. This is a clear and coherent system with an enormous breadth of study, even if you don’t want to call it “imperialism,” the fact is that this system exists, that it’s the dominant mode of the west, and that China does not practice this system.
It does not matter if you do not consider yourself a communist. This was first analyzed by Hobson, a liberal. You do not have to be a communist to recognize it, if you leave this entirely in the hands of communists then you’re just ceding any right to be taken seriously in any geopolitical matter, as it’s the primary contradiction in the modern era.
I do agree that we are at an impasse, but I hope you’ll reconsider your viewpoints and actually commit to studying phenomena in a materialist and dialectical viewpoint.
You say the people of China view it “very favourably” but if you look at the columns for free speech and transparency it is on the lower side.
Incorrect, China is near the top of the list. See the bottom:
Free speech and transparency are the specific aspects I was talking about; public support is not a silver bullet and can be fabricated by state control.
Free speech and transparency are high in China, assuming you’re a part of the working classes, so you should have no problems.
Capitalists manipulating the press to spread disinformation is not an excuse for the state to suppress and censor all criticism.
Says who? And further, no, not all criticism is censored, institutionalized private owned disinformation is censored. The working classes need to be able to control which class’s speech is allowed to propogate and dominate, otherwise capitalists manipulate the press to spread nihilism towards the socialist project. This has happened historically, and it sounds like you don’t actually care if a socialist project succeeds as long as fascists and capitalists are given free speech.
I meant in America over there, not China. It is not difficult for an American to fire up YouTube and find an English video openly criticizing the trump administration.
Sure, it isn’t difficult to find that, because liberal societies have effectively drawn attention to individual figures, rather than the system itself. Criticize Trump all you want, don’t you dare start suggesting socialism as it exists in the real world is a better system though. What you are finding is Great Man Theory, the idea that history is driven not by material conditions but individual great men and women sporadically born throughout history, which serves as a pressure valve.
You can easily find Americans criticizing trump or the US on YouTube with millions of views, if not more. So this is just false. I can easily provide you with such a video(s) if requested. Can you do the same about China, from Chinese nationals in china?
Why would people in China make hit pieces on a beloved leader? Why are you taking the absence of such hit pieces as evidence that Xi Jinping is actually evil? You can find articles from South China Morning Post, itself a Chinese media platform, criticizing the CPC! You’re trying to have it both ways!
I have dropped the use of the term “imperialist” in this discussion, but yes I do believe China is violent and opportunistic.
Yes, you unilaterally dropped one of the most critical parts of this discussion because it wasn’t going your way, and you have not once provided evidence of China being “violent and opportunistic.” You’ve hemmed and hawed around these lines.
Yet you have no problem doing the inverse.
Do you mean I have no problems highlighting structural issues with the west? I live in the west, I know its problems well. Do you mean that I am more comfortable making claims about China? It’s because I have studied it far more than you have, including the ideology driving the CPC. I’m certainly no expert, but there’s a clear gap in knowledge here that would be silly to not acknowledge.
I’m not interested in discussing imperialism here. Jargon asides, I see China as being a violent state in its own ways, “imperialist” or not.
Yes, again, you’re not interested in discussing the single most crucial component of modern geopolitics. You’ve decided to ignore the topic completely because acknowledging it undermines your points. As for seeing China as a “violent state,” this is definitely true with respect to how it treats fascists and capitalists, but not towards the working classes.
I don’t find your views compelling so I’m not likely to reconsider my beliefs, much less to fit specifically within a communist box.
It must be very convenient to be able to refuse to discuss topics that are widely acknowledged and studied even by non-communists, in order to retreat to idealism and metaphysics (like race science earlier). I’m being harsh now, because this has become a farce. I am sorry, but if you are going to continue to retreat into vibes and gut-feelings over materialist analysis, then there’s nowhere for this conversation to go.
I don’t really see any major issues China has that aren’t being actively worked on, big or small. China of course has problems, but these aren’t static and permanent. China is both socialist and anti-imperialist, so in that way it makes sense.
Zoom out, 100 years pass. What do you think is going to get worse in China? What is China doing that’s actively progressing in a bad direction?
I think you’re confusing my condemnation of imperialist countries as being unable to address their problems due to the faulty mode of production they rely on, with the belief that these are simply “negatives.” I see them in the same way all societies have problems, the difference is that some societies are actually able to address these problems by putting needs over profits, and this goes back to the mode of production.
Why do you think I constantly centered imperialism as a problem unable to be solved without revolution?
It’s not just China though, you approach other socialist countries the same way.
You say China’s problems aren’t static or permanent, but you don’t append such disclaimers or framing to issues outside of socialist regions.
I don’t see China as anti-imperialist, but I’ll drop the words “imperialist” and “fascist” altogether for the purposes of this discussion since we use it to mean different things.
Not everything is always changing significantly, some things can stay the same over time, but to answer the question, I’d say I see state surveillance, suppression of criticism, censorship, and things like that getting worse in China. Though this is kind of something I see happening globally, I’m inclined to believe this is worse in China because it’s already etched into the system at a scale more prolific than in the west.
You can routinely find criticisms of America online but China censors this. You do not personally take offense to this because in your view the capitalist should be suppressed (“communism is the dictatorship of the proletariat”), but I do. I will also say that it is this framing which makes it such that one has to be a capitalist in order to criticize the Chinese state (and thus be censored), but this isn’t true; I’m not capitalist but I would certainly criticize the state. I am staunchly against the notion of a dictatorship altogether, but this is something not everyone is uncomfortable with, I suppose.
My issue is that you don’t frame away the negatives that you mention of non-socialist countries as being part of progress or being actively worked on the way you do for socialist countries.
I don’t see China as being innocent and I retain that China is violent and aggressive when it finds the opportunity, and I’ve seen examples of this prior but I’d have to research to get into that w citations.
I treat all countries the same way, my evaluation of them changes depending on the country.
As for your critique of China, surveillance, suppression of misinformation and capitalist viewpoints, etc. are directed against capitalists. It’s a working class state wielding authority against reactionaries. The west also uses state authority against class enemies, it just so happens that these class enemies are the working classes. Opposing socialist democracies is a reactionary viewpoint, even if you consider yourself to be anti-capitalist you’d still be going against both the will of the majority and the working classes.
As for imperialist countries, they aren’t generally improving. The reason for this is dependence on imperialism, and putting profit over need. They cannot effectively improve the lives of their people. This isn’t me treating them differently, but instead evaluating them based on their own (lack of) merit.
As for China being “violent and aggressive given the opportunity,” this is silly and unfounded.
I assumed you would say China’s suppression and censorship is okay because it’s anti-capitalist and I mentioned why that wasn’t an adequate explanation. One could criticize the state without being a capitalist. It is not reactionary for one to criticize the state, unless you are asking for unconditional acceptance of the state. If criticizing the state is considered to be going against the will of the majority, then majority be damned.
I also assumed you would say the west does the same thing, and I mentioned why that wasn’t really true either. Despite their suppression you can still easily find and access criticisms of the state within their countries whereas this is not the case in China.
In my view it is impossible to have a balanced view of a state if all dissent and criticism is cracked down. Labelling all dissent and criticism as capitalist is a wholly inadequate and frankly infantile response.
On western countries not improving: I would say you’re also not considering their existing state of development; it may be easier to develop undeveloped/less developed regions than it is to develop already developed regions further, I would expect plateaus to be a thing in any country’s timeline of development to occur. Some decades from now when China reaches the same level of development one could see plateaus there too.
Again, you can believe yourself to be anti-capitalist, but simply calling yourself one is not an adequate explanation for opposing proletarian state power. Further, you can absolutely find criticism against the CPC in China, and the west also censors to a dramatic degree against the proletariat. Censorship is less transparent and more malicious in the west.
Not all dissent is capitalist. What’s absurd is pretending that all criticism is censored in China, which is why I have been repeating over and over that you have no grounds to stand on to criticize China. You have no idea what China is like, just what you hear online, and as a consequence you have an utterly one-sided view.
As for imperialist countries not developing further, it’s because imperialism results in de-industrialization. The plataue for capitalist development was already reached, you need to transition to socialism to begin developing further. You continue to ignore real, material systems like imperialism, because you simply disagree with analyzing it as a stage in capitalism and instead wish to analyze it purely as a policy states take. This is not how imperialism works.
Really, it’s quite disappointing that this is what you seem to take away from this. You have a view of China that doesn’t map to reality, and you have a view of imperialism that doesn’t map to reality either. Without analyzing both concretely, we can’t really move forward.
Both of these critiques could be applied to your views as well.
You can believe the state of China to be for the working class, but that isn’t an adequate explanation for censorship.
Despite censorship in the west, as I pointed out earlier, you can still find extensive criticisms of trump and the American regime in China.
Any examples of open media criticism against CPC in China? Direct and detailed criticisms of Xi Jinping would be the icing on the cake.
You have an utterly one-sided and unrealistically positive view of China yourself, I’ve been saying that for a while now. It’s just in the opposite direction.
I am not a Chinese national, so of course I am going to be getting my information about it from the internet, as I assume is the case for you. Or have you lived there yourself?
Highly doubt that. China and transparency are not words I’d put together.
I am choosing to ignore the term “imperialism” because we don’t share an understanding on the term, and I’m not boxing myself into a communist outlook to discuss things.
Though it does seem we are at an impasse.
No, actually, they cannot.
You’re right, belief alone is not adequate. What’s instead adequate is analyzing the mode of production and distribution in China, the class character of the state, and the historical necessity to prevent capitalist disinformation from spreading uncontested. I don’t just believe China has a working class state based on hope alone, but based on concrete evidence. Over 90% of the public supports the government, and China is ranked even by western organizations as a thriving democracy even by western definitions of democracy:
Historically, capitalists have manipulated the press to spread disinformation. Radio Free Asia is an example primarily directed against China. In the USSR, Radio Free Europe contributed heavily towards pessimism regarding constructing socialism. Class struggle does not end under socialism, so the working classes need to continue to win the class war.
Of course you’ll find extensive criticism of the west within China, the west is the world imperial hegemon.
Criticism doesn’t work like that. People don’t generally make hit pieces. If you want an example of more liberal press in China that desires more liberalization, see South China Morning Post. Institutions are prevented from mouthing off, but people on the ground often consider political critique to be a national pass time. The difference between the west and China is that there is a national hope in China, rather than pessimism.
No, I do not. Frankly, I’ve done far more research into China than you have, and I don’t mean that in a dismissive way, but in the sense that I’ve actually had to grapple with my skepticism of China in the past. I already admitted to many currently existing problems in China, but you’ve continued to make baseless claims about “Chinese imperialism.”
Correct, I have not lived there. That’s why I focus on not making authoritative claims denouncing China, and instead seek to learn what I can from the outside while focusing on changing the world I live in, the west. That’s where my activism takes me. Where we differ is that I have done far more study on Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, and the history of AES countries.
Why not? Again, look at the polling from the Perception of Democracy index, China is ranked very favorably by its own people:
You’ve committed to denying a concrete, materialist understanding of imperialism as a stage in capitalism. I’ve made it clear that imperialism is a necessary evolution within capitalism once it reaches the monopoly stage, with dominance of finance capital, and switches from export of commodity to export of capital. This is a clear and coherent system with an enormous breadth of study, even if you don’t want to call it “imperialism,” the fact is that this system exists, that it’s the dominant mode of the west, and that China does not practice this system.
It does not matter if you do not consider yourself a communist. This was first analyzed by Hobson, a liberal. You do not have to be a communist to recognize it, if you leave this entirely in the hands of communists then you’re just ceding any right to be taken seriously in any geopolitical matter, as it’s the primary contradiction in the modern era.
I do agree that we are at an impasse, but I hope you’ll reconsider your viewpoints and actually commit to studying phenomena in a materialist and dialectical viewpoint.
Removed by mod
Incorrect, China is near the top of the list. See the bottom:
Free speech and transparency are high in China, assuming you’re a part of the working classes, so you should have no problems.
Says who? And further, no, not all criticism is censored, institutionalized private owned disinformation is censored. The working classes need to be able to control which class’s speech is allowed to propogate and dominate, otherwise capitalists manipulate the press to spread nihilism towards the socialist project. This has happened historically, and it sounds like you don’t actually care if a socialist project succeeds as long as fascists and capitalists are given free speech.
Sure, it isn’t difficult to find that, because liberal societies have effectively drawn attention to individual figures, rather than the system itself. Criticize Trump all you want, don’t you dare start suggesting socialism as it exists in the real world is a better system though. What you are finding is Great Man Theory, the idea that history is driven not by material conditions but individual great men and women sporadically born throughout history, which serves as a pressure valve.
Why would people in China make hit pieces on a beloved leader? Why are you taking the absence of such hit pieces as evidence that Xi Jinping is actually evil? You can find articles from South China Morning Post, itself a Chinese media platform, criticizing the CPC! You’re trying to have it both ways!
Yes, you unilaterally dropped one of the most critical parts of this discussion because it wasn’t going your way, and you have not once provided evidence of China being “violent and opportunistic.” You’ve hemmed and hawed around these lines.
Do you mean I have no problems highlighting structural issues with the west? I live in the west, I know its problems well. Do you mean that I am more comfortable making claims about China? It’s because I have studied it far more than you have, including the ideology driving the CPC. I’m certainly no expert, but there’s a clear gap in knowledge here that would be silly to not acknowledge.
Yes, again, you’re not interested in discussing the single most crucial component of modern geopolitics. You’ve decided to ignore the topic completely because acknowledging it undermines your points. As for seeing China as a “violent state,” this is definitely true with respect to how it treats fascists and capitalists, but not towards the working classes.
It must be very convenient to be able to refuse to discuss topics that are widely acknowledged and studied even by non-communists, in order to retreat to idealism and metaphysics (like race science earlier). I’m being harsh now, because this has become a farce. I am sorry, but if you are going to continue to retreat into vibes and gut-feelings over materialist analysis, then there’s nowhere for this conversation to go.