Also “free speech” that doesn’t apply to corporate platforms. Which is, you know, all of them. Love when a liberal says “that doesn’t count, they’re a private business” whenever you point out the blatant censorship in the West.
Well private entities should always allowed to choose what content they want to platform. It’s only a problem if we used these privately owned platform as an official communications channel (like government relying on X to announce stuffs).
Freedom of press only applies to the wealthy, how do I benefit from it as a worker when all media in my country perpetuates comprador propaganda and I’m too poor to make my own press?
For sure— I’m not saying freedom of press actually exists under capitalism.
My point is that socialism doesn’t have freedom of press either. Censorship and surveillance by the vanguard state (see China, Cuba, historical USSR) is routine.
“Dictatorship of the proletariat”.
Unfortunately, dictatorships do not have a tendency to allow for freedom of press.
Those words don’t mean anything when they are used to censor. The introduction of censorship allows censors to censor anything, regardless of whether or not it is “capitalist” or not.
There is no way of knowing whether only “capitalist” content is censored or if criticisms that are staunchly and directly against the state (which absolutely deserves its place in any state that doesn’t want to be an echo chamber) are also being censored under the veneer of “capitalism”.
Every government and even every culture practices some degree of control over how we speak and how we exist. Language itself has an impact on this. Despite this fact, it’s possible to recognize proletarian control vs capitalist control.
“Everyone does it!” is literally a logical fallacy.
It’s not even just “some”, you’re minimizing the extent of control here. You cannot have a state held accountable if it systematically suppresses criticism against it.
I’m recognizing the class nature of the state and society. I’m not trying to morally justify anything, but instead point out why it exists, both necessarily and temporarily.
The proletariat is the majority in most if not all societies, arguing the dictatorship of the proletariat is undemocratic merely because the word “dictatorship” doesn’t make sense. Democracy is [ideally, not what it is in practice] is a dictatorship of the majority, and the proletariat are the majority, surely you see how saying democracy is undemocratic makes no sense.
States are instruments of oppression weilded by classes, they are all “dictatorships” in the sense that a class oppresses the other; the question in state is, is it the capitalists oppressing the working class, or the other way around
Except in practice it’s not proletarians doing these things, it’s bureaucrats who end up forming their own class and class interests in the name of the proletariat. The average proletariat isn’t actually the one who makes these rules or checks or applies censorships. See China, USSR, Cuba.
There shouldn’t be classes to begin with. Eliminating hierarchies in lieu of anarchism deals with the issue without it being “another dictatorship”
forming their own class and class interests in the name of the proletariat.
That’s not how class works, it’s not like starting a new club. Class is defined by your relationship to production, not some nebulous title like “beauraucrats”
There shouldn’t be classes to begin with.
Genuinely, what is your suggested approach to rectifying this and what real world data is it based on? How do you expect to abolish class without a clear understanding of what creates it? How would a scientist expect to cure a disease without understanding what it is?
That’s the socialist definition of class, that is not how I understand class.
I can decide to understand gravity as a color if I want to, but it doesn’t make me right.
Calling bureaucracy “nebulous” doesn’t invalidate any of the reasoning I provided
I’m calling the term you’re using (beauraucrats) nebulous, because it is, because you haven’t defined it. You haven’t provided any “reasoning”, you’ve just said “I think this happens” with nothing at all to back it up.
Suggested approach: anarchism.
That’s cool, but some of us feel like living in a society that doesn’t get rolled over by a capitalist military whenever they feel like it. Some of us enjoy functional supply chains, too.
I didn’t disregard the importance of understanding class, merely that I disagreed with the reductive socialist definition of class.
Yeah I’m not saying you don’t think it’s important, I’m saying you don’t understand it. Please tell me what you think is reductive about the definition of class used by the people who have radically transformed multiple feudal societies into world powers, because your own track record does not make a compelling case for abandoning it.
China, Cuba, Historical USSR. No such thing what you described. It’s state-controlled. In china, it’s bureaucratic class that controls the media, not average workers by any means.
The state is governed by the working classes in China, Cuba, USSR, etc. Administration is not a class, it’s a subset of a broader class, ie the proletariat. Classes are relations to ownership of production and distribution, not simply job categories.
Teachers and doctors don’t get to make laws to further their own interests, make it easier for others they know to do the same, amongst the countless other power moves bureaucrats are able to pull off. This power concentrates and develops them into their own class with their own interests because they are so largely cut off and distinguished from the rest of the working population.
Teachers and doctors are nothing like bureaucrats, that’s a fallacious analogy.
Teachers and doctors do get to manipulate their own positions to their own advantage. You’re treating sub-categories of larger categories as distinct from said category, and not a part of it. The class interests of administrators are aligned with the rest of the working classes, towards collectivization of production and distribution and helping everyone. Corruption exists, sure, but this doesn’t mean this is an impossible hurdle, just like the fact that we can get sick doesn’t mean we can’t exist publicly.
Also “free speech” that doesn’t apply to corporate platforms. Which is, you know, all of them. Love when a liberal says “that doesn’t count, they’re a private business” whenever you point out the blatant censorship in the West.
and this logic applies even within bourgeoisie political parties https://observer.com/2017/08/court-admits-dnc-and-debbie-wasserman-schulz-rigged-primaries-against-sanders/
Whole fuckin country is a private business
Well private entities should always allowed to choose what content they want to platform. It’s only a problem if we used these privately owned platform as an official communications channel (like government relying on X to announce stuffs).
That’s not the only time it’s a problem. It’s mainly a problem because these privately owned platforms control so much communication.
Valid criticism, but let’s not pretend socialism leads to better outcomes for freedom of speech or press either.
Freedom of press only applies to the wealthy, how do I benefit from it as a worker when all media in my country perpetuates comprador propaganda and I’m too poor to make my own press?
For sure— I’m not saying freedom of press actually exists under capitalism.
My point is that socialism doesn’t have freedom of press either. Censorship and surveillance by the vanguard state (see China, Cuba, historical USSR) is routine.
“Dictatorship of the proletariat”. Unfortunately, dictatorships do not have a tendency to allow for freedom of press.
Dictatorship of the proletariat means democracy for the proletariat, dictatorship against capitalists.
Those words don’t mean anything when they are used to censor. The introduction of censorship allows censors to censor anything, regardless of whether or not it is “capitalist” or not.
There is no way of knowing whether only “capitalist” content is censored or if criticisms that are staunchly and directly against the state (which absolutely deserves its place in any state that doesn’t want to be an echo chamber) are also being censored under the veneer of “capitalism”.
Every government and even every culture practices some degree of control over how we speak and how we exist. Language itself has an impact on this. Despite this fact, it’s possible to recognize proletarian control vs capitalist control.
“Everyone does it!” is literally a logical fallacy.
It’s not even just “some”, you’re minimizing the extent of control here. You cannot have a state held accountable if it systematically suppresses criticism against it.
No it’s an accurate representation of class society and what it necessitates
I’m recognizing the class nature of the state and society. I’m not trying to morally justify anything, but instead point out why it exists, both necessarily and temporarily.
The proletariat is the majority in most if not all societies, arguing the dictatorship of the proletariat is undemocratic merely because the word “dictatorship” doesn’t make sense. Democracy is [ideally, not what it is in practice] is a dictatorship of the majority, and the proletariat are the majority, surely you see how saying democracy is undemocratic makes no sense.
States are instruments of oppression weilded by classes, they are all “dictatorships” in the sense that a class oppresses the other; the question in state is, is it the capitalists oppressing the working class, or the other way around
Except in practice it’s not proletarians doing these things, it’s bureaucrats who end up forming their own class and class interests in the name of the proletariat. The average proletariat isn’t actually the one who makes these rules or checks or applies censorships. See China, USSR, Cuba.
There shouldn’t be classes to begin with. Eliminating hierarchies in lieu of anarchism deals with the issue without it being “another dictatorship”
That’s not how class works, it’s not like starting a new club. Class is defined by your relationship to production, not some nebulous title like “beauraucrats”
Genuinely, what is your suggested approach to rectifying this and what real world data is it based on? How do you expect to abolish class without a clear understanding of what creates it? How would a scientist expect to cure a disease without understanding what it is?
That’s the socialist definition of class, that is not how I understand class.
I didn’t say it’s like “starting a new club”.
Calling bureaucracy “nebulous” doesn’t invalidate any of the reasoning I provided.
Suggested approach: anarchism.
I didn’t disregard the importance of understanding class, merely that I disagreed with the reductive socialist definition of class.
I can decide to understand gravity as a color if I want to, but it doesn’t make me right.
I’m calling the term you’re using (beauraucrats) nebulous, because it is, because you haven’t defined it. You haven’t provided any “reasoning”, you’ve just said “I think this happens” with nothing at all to back it up.
That’s cool, but some of us feel like living in a society that doesn’t get rolled over by a capitalist military whenever they feel like it. Some of us enjoy functional supply chains, too.
Yeah I’m not saying you don’t think it’s important, I’m saying you don’t understand it. Please tell me what you think is reductive about the definition of class used by the people who have radically transformed multiple feudal societies into world powers, because your own track record does not make a compelling case for abandoning it.
Socialism changes which class controls the speech from the capitalist class to the working classes.
This is not the case in any of the AES countries.
China, Cuba, Historical USSR. No such thing what you described. It’s state-controlled. In china, it’s bureaucratic class that controls the media, not average workers by any means.
The state is governed by the working classes in China, Cuba, USSR, etc. Administration is not a class, it’s a subset of a broader class, ie the proletariat. Classes are relations to ownership of production and distribution, not simply job categories.
The bureaucracy is still a class category that is distinct from workers in general with its own class interests.
States such as China aren’t really governed by the working classes.
No, this is not how class or the state works. Administration is a subset of a class, just like teachers and doctors are not classes.
Teachers and doctors don’t get to make laws to further their own interests, make it easier for others they know to do the same, amongst the countless other power moves bureaucrats are able to pull off. This power concentrates and develops them into their own class with their own interests because they are so largely cut off and distinguished from the rest of the working population.
Teachers and doctors are nothing like bureaucrats, that’s a fallacious analogy.
Teachers and doctors do get to manipulate their own positions to their own advantage. You’re treating sub-categories of larger categories as distinct from said category, and not a part of it. The class interests of administrators are aligned with the rest of the working classes, towards collectivization of production and distribution and helping everyone. Corruption exists, sure, but this doesn’t mean this is an impossible hurdle, just like the fact that we can get sick doesn’t mean we can’t exist publicly.