I currently use Telegram for my friends and family, but have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK Government is either reaching agreement for backdoors with messaging services, or is trying its hardest to.
I’m also on Element/Matrix. Before I try to get my contacts to join me on there, should I be aware of any privacy issues or is that a good place to head?
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Telegram is the least secure thing there is. Not only it’s complete zero effort security, it’s also much above zero effort to advertise itself as almost secure. Not a good combination as you know.
I currently use Telegram for my friends and family
Telegram is probably the worst thing you could use, it doesn’t encrypt messages by default and they are stored on Telegram’s servers, so they can read them at any time.
I’m also on Element/Matrix. Before I try to get my contacts to join me on there, should I be aware of any privacy issues
Yes, Matrix leaks a bunch of metadata and doesn’t have post-quantum encryption.
The best option is to use Signal. It uses end-to-end encryption by default for everything: Normal chats, group chats, voice and video calls and even stories. Messages are only stored on their servers (in encrypted format, so they can’t access them) until you receive them, after which they are promptly deleted and only stored on your device. And Signal has much better metadata protection than Matrix. The UX is also much better and less confusing, making onboarding new users much easier.
But you should also be aware that Signal does not federate, so the company can be bought. They have control over all accounts and the servers, without easy way to migrate away again. So it might just be another trap.
Try to use federated services (like matrix), they are more robust against hostile take overs.
so the company can be bought
The company (Signal Messenger LLC) is fully owned by Signal Foundation, a 501©3 non profit organization.
Try to use federated services
I generally like this idea, and I also use federated services for things like social media, that’s why we’re having a discussion here on Lemmy. But it introduces some issues with private messaging, like lack of reliability, which sucks if you want to use Matrix as your primary messenger, as well as metadata leaks. Federation is not always the answer, and in my opinion definitely not when it comes private and secure messaging.
they are more robust against hostile take overs
Probably around 80-90% of Matrix users are on the matrix.org homeserver, so it’s absolutely not as decentralized and resilient as you think it is.
The company (Signal Messenger LLC) is fully owned by Signal Foundation, a 501©3 non profit organization.
OpenAI is also non-profit. Not really an argument.
Probably around 80-90% of Matrix users are on the matrix.org homeserver, so it’s absolutely not as decentralized and resilient as you think it is.
Well, the goal is that moving to your own server, will not mean that you will loose access to all your contacts. Which makes moving instances much simpler. If Matrix gets a hostile take-over, your don’t really need to reach a critical mass for an alternative server.
This is such a bad take it seems like deliberate misinformation.
Signal is open-source software maintained by a non-profit. User data is not stored on Signal servers, they have no way to access messages as they are stored and encrypted on your phone. If the Signal Foundation were revealed as bad actors then the open-source code could be forked to a new project.
Feel free to fully evaluate their code here: https://github.com/signalapp
At least (to my knowledge) the Signal messages are decrypted on the client end, so buying the company doesn’t give them automatic access to messages.
Having said that, I’m sure a hostile new owner could update the app to decrypt and then send the messages as plaintext to the servers if they wanted…
Well, you can still insert client side decryption into the app.
But it isn’t really about the messages, it is about the control of the servers and the accounts. You cannot easily move away from their servers, because you will lose your contacts. This gives the people controlling the servers power over you. A sort of vendor lockin.
In the 1990s US ISPs would “give you” an e-mail account with their service: you@isp.com. Of course, this is insta-lockin for that e-mail address, you can never port it.
Owning your own domain name and running e-mail service through that worked, for a few years, but the big players have made whitelist / blacklist such a frustrating whack-a-mole game in the e-mail space that running your own e-mail server quickly became impractical.
There are different degrees of vendor lock in. If you use email (or Matrix) with a domain, you have no control over, you are soft-locked it. You can buy a domain, self-host or pay for a managed service and inform everyone that you are now reachable over some other address, but nobody else has to change.
If you use Signal (or Discord or whatever) and want to switch to a different domain. You cannot. If you switch to a different protocol, everyone in your contacts has to switch as well, or you lose that contact. The network effect forces you into the service of one provider. The only way out of there would be if the service get so bad, that a critical mass leaves, but you will have to deal with that bad service all the way.
As long as financial interest are there, non-federated services will sooner or later start to enshittyfy. So if you choose a communication medium, choose something that leaves your options open. If you don’t like Matrix, try XMPP, it has come a long way as well.
This was outlined 50 years ago as part of Anarchist analysis of the system then. Not exactly an easy read, but “the second watershed” can be equated to “jumping the shark” or “enshittification” or whatever other term you want to apply to: a good thing gone bad due to the business owners switching from serving customers to enriching / empowering themselves:
https://archive.org/details/illich-conviviality/page/9/mode/1up
The alternative proposed by Illich to “Radical Monopolies” are “Convivial Tools” which empower individuals instead of central decision makers.
Well, you can still insert client side decryption into the app.
That’s why all clients are fully open-source. You can also use a fork like Molly.
AFAIK, Signal does not want anyone to use alternative clients, has that changed?
As far as I know moxie, signals lead dev, considers only the use of the officially build and distributed client authorized to use their servers.
So if they ever manage to detect someone using their services with an alternative client, they might delete your account.
As far as I know moxie, signals lead dev, considers only the use of the officially build and distributed client authorized to use their servers.
Moxie has resigned a few years ago. The article you linked to is 9 years old, Signal leadership has changed a bunch of times since. Signal can’t detect that you’re running an alternative client, because that check would require them to include some new code in the official client. Even if they did this, they couldn’t just ban anyone who’s client doesn’t pass the check, since it could just be an older version of the official client. They could force everyone to use the official app, but they really have no reason to invest time and effort into enforcing this. Molly is only available for Android, and it isn’t even on the Play Store or the official F-Droid repo, so the user base naturally won’t be as big.
Shortcut question: What’s a workable federated e2ee solution that’s available today? Quantum secure? Metadata secure?
Matrix?
IMO the whole “metadata insecurity” stuff about Matrix is over exaggerated. Also Matrix is improving there.
If metadata security is really that important, you could try Tox or similar P2P chats.
I actually tried Tox - maybe 8 years ago now… the real problem with it, or anything similar, is that you need both ends of every conversation to take the trouble to set it up. It was pretty easy to setup, IMO, but… as an example, in 2005 I had an engineer co-worker ask me about “that Linux thing” when I got around to telling him that pretty much everything he used on a daily basis was available in Linux, just under different names than he was used to in Windows “Oh, you mean I’d have to learn different names for Word and Excel and Outlook?” “Uh, yeah.” “Oh, that’s more trouble than I think I want, I’ll just stick with what I know.”
telegram is not encrypted e2e
I currently use Telegram for my friends and family, but have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK Government is either reaching agreement for backdoors with messaging services, or is trying its hardest to.
Unless you start an encrypted chat, Telegram chats are not E2E.
I’m also on Element/Matrix. Before I try to get my contacts to join me on there, should I be aware of any privacy issues or is that a good place to head?
Host your own Matrix node, and then you don’t have to worry about prying eyes. Realistically, instead of worrying about the protocol, worry about the content of the text. Use PGP to encrypt your own text and send it over clearnet. Who cares at that point.
No proprietary software can truley provide secure messaging
Matrix is not proprietary. The protocol is FOSS, Synapse server is FOSS, Dendrite server is FOSS, there are FOSS clients, Element is FOSS too afaik.
I think at this point it would be funnier to just use something obviously unsecure like discord but share your public key with the other user and then send encrypted text.
We went full circle to the early 2000s, slapping PGP on top of public messaging platforms!
I guess a vencord plugin for that wouldn’t be that difficult to do
I used to do something like this before Signal became a thing. We used to use OTR via the Pidgin OTR plugin to send encrypted messages over Google Hangouts. Funnily enough, I’m pretty sure Pidgin supports Discord, so you could use the exact same setup to achieve what you described.
It was pretty funny to check the official Hangouts web client and see nonsensical text being sent.
hello beautiful people of lemmy I’m excited to make my first comment in here
so I wanted to ask: considering that WhatsApp is a big threat to privacy and even worse because of google and iOS backups, how big of an improvement would it be not using it and using the secret chat option in telegram instead? That would solve the issue wouldn’t it? As far as I know the concern is with normal non encrypted conversations and the groups channels and all those.
I would love to use signal with everyone but where I live it seems that there is 0 worries about the topic so I only use it with my more “international” people. The most I can get is probably to use telegram E2EE.
My response to the body of this post is https://www.privacyguides.org/en/real-time-communication/
This might address the URL of this post (I’ve never interacted with “iCloud” so I don’t necessarily know what would be a good replacement for it): https://www.privacyguides.org/en/document-collaboration/
Is Briar any good?
I’ve heard good things about simplex give it a look
