cross-posted from: https://kbin.earth/m/196@lemmy.blahaj.zone/t/818591
town that always catches on fire rule
Retired firefighter/paramedic here. It’s simple: Fire departments don’t normally generate revenue. It’s a money-sink and local governments don’t like that. The first things financially cut when I worked for a city of 170,000 were always services that didn’t make money. That’s just how it works.
Why police departments need heavy armor and assault accoutrements is beyond me, though. I mean, all that shit didn’t help whatsoever in most mass-shootings.
It’s a money-sink and local governments don’t like that. The first things financially cut when I worked for a city of 170,000 were always services that didn’t make money. That’s just how it works.
The whole point of government is to collect taxes to pay for stuff that isn’t revenue generating to spread out the costs!
I saw Rebel Ridge on Netflix, could very well be that police departments generate revenue through Civil Forfeiture.
(It’s a fictional thriller, not a documentary, but very much based on modern realities)
Did somebody say John Oliver story that enrages me how fucked up America is as a country?
Tickets. Police departments have quotas because that’s their main revenue source, civil forfeiture is just the icing on the cake.
Molly’s Game also includes Civil Forfeiture. I wouldn’t call it a major part of the plot, but it’s definitely there and described as bullshit.
Yes, And?
Of course it’s a sink. With that reasoning, taxes are sinks for citizens. The entire oiintis that you get something back for it .
I think to the mass of people, if they can see a cop that means the money is going to something tangible that a politician can point to and say we did all of these numbers because cops. While firefighters the more money you put in, it doesn’t as easily translate to a figure that you can point to and say we did all this fire stuff. Which then the general populous gets pissed off that their tax dollars are being wasted.
It doesn’t make it right, smart, sensible or logical. But the general population doesn’t really care about that.
Is this true? Lots of disinformation flying around about the fire dept in LA. I haven’t gotten around to fact checking for myself.
The immediate narrative of “they cut the budget” is not quite true. The budget was done while the city was negotiating with the main union, so they didn’t have exact numbers for additional wages and benefits, and the normal process is to leave them off entirely until the contract is done. That showed cuts on paper. They then finished the deal and ended up with a 6.5% total increase.
HOWEVER, the broader point is that while the LAPD budget is being augmented to bring on hundreds of new officers and hire civilian support positions, the Fire department’s budget is stagnating, and the budget specifically eliminated 79 civilian support positions and lowered the overtime budget for firefighters. The chief pointed out it’s about the same size as it was 50 years ago. So, she basically took the media moment to get some attention on the need for more resources, and it turned out she was very right.
The overal LAFD budget after the restored funds is around $895M. For comparison, the police budget got a 7.5% increase in city funding, and its ~$2B city budget is augmented by state and federal funds for about another ~$1.2B. I’m sure the fire department gets something, particularly when a massive emergency actually happens, but I couldn’t find any readily available numbers for any ongoing support from state or federal.
And just for “funsies,” when Fox News reported on the FD cuts, they compared not to police, but to the city “spending millions on the homeless,” which while true, also reflected a full 26% cut from $250M to $185M. Never change, Fox News. /s
Ignore the other guy. It’s true. The fire chief pointed out several infrastructure deficiencies, meanwhile the Mayor cut the fire budget by over $17 million and raised the police budget.
Yep, see -
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-wildfires-los-angeles-fire-chief-budget-cuts/ (archived at https://archive.is/a4IxG)
https://theintercept.com/2025/01/08/la-police-budget-palisades-fires/ (archived at https://archive.is/a4IxG)
e; also, this -
… the budget picture is far from rosy. Chief Kristin M. Crowley of the Los Angeles Fire Department wrote a memo to the fire commission last month saying the overtime cut was creating “unprecedented operational challenges” — both in fulfilling everyday tasks like payroll processing and long-term planning for major emergencies like big wildfires or earthquakes.
She wrote that specialized programs, including air operations and disaster response, relied on staff working overtime hours and were at risk of becoming less effective. She added that the loss of civilian positions was also squeezing firefighters who had to backfill some of those responsibilities.
In November, Chief Crowley wrote a separate memo to the commission focusing on the bigger picture: a fire department that has not changed much in size since the 1960s despite the city’s population surging by more than a million people since then.
She wrote that the call volume rose by a factor of five between 1969 and 2023, but that the department had not been given the staffing and new fire stations it needs to respond effectively, and that response times were steadily increasing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/09/us/la-fire-department-budget-bass.html (archived at https://archive.is/xBCxj)
People are using the same NYT article to support both sides of this argument.
I’m not an NYT subscriber. What’s the deal here?
When the two sides did reach an agreement in November, that money was moved over to the fire department’s pot, according to Mr. Blumenfield’s office, meaning this year’s fire budget is actually $53 million more than last year.
Weird way to cut a budget
How long was it before the budget got reallocated? And how much had this been going on before?
It sounds like a big part of the issue is that they haven’t been able to do mitigation - controlled burns, etc. If the budget has been slashed for a long time, suddenly dumping some cash in later is going to have a limited effect.
The budget was increased by 53 million.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/09/us/la-fire-department-budget-bass.html
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No. Even if it was, this isn’t a thing you can beat by throwing bodies or money at. It was just too fast.
The argument I would allow is if that money had been spent by the world over the last 40 years to prevent climate change.
I see potential for a self fulfilling prophecy here:
Instead of putting funding into things that keep people from revolting put it in prepping “law” enforcement for they day they inevitably will.
(Autocorrect suggested flaw instead of law. Kinda works too, doesn’t it?)
“Flaw enforcement.”
I’m going to use that in a sentence.
I can’t imagine defund the fire brigade being a popular slogan with anyone really.
They don’t campaign on that, they campaign on “keeping taxes low” or bullshit like that
One time, I was on a car trip with a friend and we passed a yard sign advocating funding (or maybe supporting? It was a long time ago) the fire department. I said “who doesn’t support the fire department?” and she responded “I don’t know … Arsonists?”
So yeah, arsonists might want to see the fire department defunded.
Because it wasn’t defunded you fell for bullshit.
Funnily, thats the exact plot of the Show im currently watching
Makes sense if the writers live in LA and they have to live with this situation
Even more funnily it’s bullshit. People lie on the Internet
What is your deal?
Increasingly sick of people amplifying bullshit mostly
okay but can you see what it looks like to us? like do you think by spamming the same comments up and down the thread and then never engaging in a meaningful way you can somehow out amplify that bullshit with your own bullshit?
Truth ain’t bullshit and thee bullshitters don’t stop unless they’re told.
okay, but do you see? how do you think you are coming off here?
“What? No, that’s not fire. It’s just a trick of the light. Look over there, it’s a transsexual! Oh no!”
When the hills of Los Angeles are burning…
Its technically funding when you get prisoners to fight the fires.
Let’s completely ignore climate change as the root cause of more severe and frequent fires.
This planet is going to implode and these idiots who are blaming a single mayor are going to drag us with them.
I’m always curious about post like these. Are you suggesting that the firefighters failed here? That if there are more firefighters this fire wouldn’t have happened? What would more firefighters have done? Could they block the high winds? Are they able to Make It Rain more?
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So exactly what you’re saying then. There’s a specific number of firefighters if employed this fire would not have happened. What’s that number? How would they have specifically stop this fire? The current firefighters failed because there wasn’t enough of them? Right? That’s what you’re getting it.
Good god, this is the most blatant sea-lioning I’ve seen in ages!
Uh, maybe they could have called in another of our own fire fighting planes instead of of relying on Canada for an extra one? Better training, better contingency plans, installation of fire breaks, more input into city infrastructure like fire water ponds here and there to supply water? What the hell are you trying to get at when there are numerous things they could have done with more funding both in the past and at this very moment?
What training stops this fire? What amount of fire department budget allows them to redo all the zoning in the wealthy part of Los Angeles? Really I find that maybe the most absurd part of your comment. Yeah I’m sure they’ll have real sway over the nimbys. You think this budget cut is the reason they don’t have an entire another plane and the crew to run it? And one single plane would have been the difference?
What I’m getting at is this is all fucking nonsense. No a 17 million cut to the firefighter budget is not why this fire happened. This is climate change. This is dryer windier conditions leading to fire. It doesn’t take $17 million dollars to fix that. It takes massive societal change. You people are always looking for quick easy answers to everything and it’s just absurd.
I hate when people are intentionally obtuse. More money is more possibilities for action in our capitalistic society. I’m only listing examples, and I’m not going to plan out and budget LA’s firefighting response for you in a Lemmy comment. The whole point is that when you take someone’s money away, they have less opportunity to do things. Which translates to more widespread losses due to fire–and that’s all there is to it. Can’t believe I have to explain that to you.
No, you’re not going to list LA firefighting measures because there are none that can stop this. Forest fires happen, it’s not the fire department’s fault that they happen. No amount of firefighters makes it not dry and windy. Trying to blame the firefighters for this is fucking absurd. They didn’t fail here Society failed here.
Anything to avoid blaming the people that actually cause the problem.
“Funding agencies doesn’t make them more effective.”
Whatever you want to believe, man. Also, who’s blaming firefighters? When did we start talking about firefighters instead of agency funding?
Their budget is over 800 million dollars. You don’t think they’re funded? That 2% was enough to Cripple them? If that 2% was enough to stop forest fires how come they were forest fires last year when they had it?
As for who’s blaming firefighters. You are. This post is. That’s the whole point of these talking points. To blame firefighters and the LA fire department for this forest fire. Because if fire fighters are the problem then big polluters aren’t. Did you not get that? You’re saying that the current firefighters failed and only more firefighters would have stopped it. Which is a Bonkers mindset but that’s the logic you’re promoting here.
Maybe buy better and efficient equipments to fight fire, training on those equipments. Instead of tanks for the police.
What equipment would have stopped this fire? This fire was caused because the firefighters didn’t have proper equipment?
Stopping the fire is not the main goal. Preventing the fire to spread more is. Fire will go out by itself if you deny it fuel.
Controlled burns were defunded at federal and local levels.
So the situation is still developing, but a few key errors have emerged:
- There has been an extremely limited amount of work done to clear brush and other flammable material. This made the fire a lot worse
- There was no communication in terms of evacuation. This made the entire situation more dangerous and more chaotic
- The infrastructure to fight the fires was underdeveloped. At one point the hydrants just ran out of water.
- The LA Mayor was in Ghana when this was happening, despite fires being forecasted. She dropped the ball in the initial response, and her press conferences have left a lot of be desired. Credit to Gavin Newsome, his response has been a lot better. Part of being the quintessential limo liberal is a smoothness that comes in handy at times like this.
This is on some very real level a failure of state and local government. While a good portion is a failure over decades, the current administration also did a really bad job given the situation they walked into. I think LA Citizens have a right to be pissed.
Turns out the firefighters where actually starting the previous fires to legitimize their need for a higher budget.
Good job Mayor!
At least the police can be trusted to follow the laws they enforce. The chief promised this himself.
