🖕 Fuck PayPal
And fuck Linus Tech Tips for intentionally keeping quiet about this after they found out.
I never trusted Honey to begin with but this goes far deeper than I ever expected. I always wondered “yeah, but where do they get their money?” I always figured it was just a way to take people’s data and sell it to data brokers (which they probably also do, let’s be honest) but this is just blatant fraud. Stealing affiliate money from links and having companies pay them to purposefully give out worse coupon codes is just devious through and through. It’s basically free money and everybody else, whether influencer or consumer, get fucked over in the process.
I always assumed it was a combination of your guess and companies giving Honey special coupon codes so consumers are more eager to spend.
“Hey Honey, we’ll give you 1% commission if you just host this HONEY5 coupon for 5% off.”
That was my impression when I used it once. Wasn’t worth having an extension just for a slight discount. Love when a company doesn’t fulfill the service they advertise.
But that would be an ethical business model, we can’t have that, this is PayPal and this is the internet. There’s no place for ethics in that combination.
everybody else, whether influencer or consumer, get fucked over in the process.
Enshittification correctly defined.
Same. I never downloaded it or anything like it but I didn’t realize they were playing both sides. It’s fucked.
If you’re sitting at a poker table and you can’t tell who the sucker is, it’s you.
Alternately, if you look at an online service and can’t tell what the product is, It’s you.
And even if you can tell what the product is, it‘s still often you. “Premium” subscriptions for example might hide (some) ads, but services still collect as much data about you. Even grocery stores where the offer seems obvious are trying to bait you into installing their apps to collect data on top of charging you for every item. And sure it’s not relevant in this case, but it’s something we should never forget.
By that logic, linux users are the product.
Linux is neither an online service, nor a business at all.
Yeah, I feel like that’s usually a very accurate saying, but it doesn’t really work with a lot of open source projects.
I hate that you’re getting downvoted by so many people who don’t realize you’re pointing out an exception to the rule, and instead think you have some fundamental misunderstanding about how Linux works.
They are getting downvoted for misconstruing something that is clearly a rule about profit making services and applying it to crowd sourced non-profit open source projects.
Truly open source projects don’t have suckers.
misconstruing something that is clearly a rule about profit making services
To be honest I don’t think that’s clear at all, it feels like it’s more a rule about being skeptical of free stuff online. And many for profit companies have open source projects that can be used safely even though the source is a for-profit.
It’s difficult for others to take advantage of you when you can learn what the software actually does and have it modified to work another way.
Linux (for the most part) is open source but I’d argue the inclusion of any proprietary software/firmware/drivers means something ultimately isn’t.
No? The OS is the product.
I think the issue was with the original commenter’s phrasing. Facebook looks like a product. But the commenter meant “How the product is being funded”.
Of course, it gets hard when there’s multiple sources of revenue. You used to be able to spot ads and come to the conclusion that that was everything. Now an ad is just the tip of the iceberg.
I mean, yes?
The key difference is linux wants you to help make it better. Something like Honey steals your data, and steals money from others, and then wants you to make it better.
A useful question to ask when hearing about a new company is “What’s your business model?”
There is no such thing as a free and benevolent product with an advertising budget.
Wikipedia
Show me a Wikipedia ad that they paid money for?
They have a budget spent on advertising on wikipedia itself, plus the cost of the emails they send out asking for donations.
Does it even count if you’re advertising on your own platform? If I’m able to see the “ads” in the first place, I’m already using it.
I also wouldn’t exactly call a donation drive “advertising” either. They’re not trying to onboard more users to the service, they’re nagging people who already use the service to give them money. Which is itself leaning a bit on the wall of what is and isn’t “free”.
Does it even count if you’re advertising on your own platform?
YES
Their advertisement budget is collected by guilt tripping Wikipedia users using the lie that the website would cease if they didn’t ”donate”.
Yes, their method of advertising/fundraising is atrocious. They still have an advertising budget and their product is benevolent and free.
I agree
Free and benevolent maybe not. but genuine and non malicious?
“What’s your business model?” “we make and sell delicious sandwiches. Customer buys the sandwich for a little mote than it costs to make so we get money for ourselves.” That isn’t a scam.
Correct. It’s not a scam. Because it’s not free. The sandwich had a price posted, you paid it, you received the product. Valid business model.
What would you think instead if you saw a NYT front page ad taken out for Free Sandwich Mart, the all-you-can-eat totally free sandwich emporium?
Or in this case, a free browser extension that paid to sponsor five thousand YouTube videos that promises to help you pay less money to every store you activate it on at no cost to you?
Yes. Which is why, when you see a novel service being advertised, it is a useful exercise to ask of them “What is your business model?”
Real as shit. I know idiots who think apple pays people scaling on how many downloads their app has xD (kinda like yt views)
“Where are they getting money to pay for sponsorships and what are their motivations”
I used honey for a while and it was working great for me with “exclusive” coupons and Cashback and then one time I bough a cellphone that was supposed to have $250 cashback. I did all the necessary steps, read the t&c, took screenshots of the offer and made the purchase. I never got the transaction to appear on their website. Sending emails it trying to contact them was futile (I even made an automatic script to send an email everyday to follow up). Fuck PayPal
Small claims
Ever since it was explained that Mr. Beast only smiles with his mouth, I get skeeved out every time I see him.
Mr Beast literally shadow banned the word teeth from his YT comments. It’s hilarious.
It’s a shame too, I really miss all the great tooth related discussions we used to have there.
Shit! You are right. Thats horrible. And explains why he freaks me out.
Mr. Beast is completely creepy.
I’m so proud I never consumed these guys shit
Was it all that surprising to you though?
By the time honey hit the scene we had been ten years into “sketchy Browser extension that monitors your browsing habits and injects ads”
I guess getting flogged by your favorite influencer ads a veneer of legitimacy for a lot of people.
I think what was truly surprising is that they were bought for 4 billion.That much money for… basically an out and out scam. Paypal is that sure that it’s:
-
entirely legal
-
Will never be stopped
-
will return on a 4 billion investment.
-
You guys think Rakuten does the same? I have got so much money from them.
I never trust browser extensions outside of a select few. However, I have used Paypal quite a bit. I would think many of us have.
I avoid PayPal categorically
Seriously.
I haven’t trusted LTT for about 5 years now.
Agreed. I remember enjoying their workshop videos a long time ago, but they can’t even be trusted for PC building info, much less anything else.
If something advertises on youtube it’s a scam. Simple to remember really.
I don’t mind things that are an actual thing to buy. I want to research it first–you can get a better electric razor than Manscaped for not much more–but at least it’s clear how they make their money. Honey was obviously getting money from someone other than their users, and that’s an immediate red flag.
I and many other people naturally assumed that honey was getting their money from consumer data collection. Which is why I didn’t use the service myself. The surprise is the fact that the scam isn’t just consumer data collection but actually stealing commissions from content creators as well as using consumers as a gateway to stealing money from businesses that they have contracts with.
Yeah. PayPal bought a coupon browser extension for how much? If the only thing they do is save YOU money, how come they can afford a sponsored segment in a mr beast video?
This isn’t even remotely true. There are lots of advertisers and sponsors that aren’t scams. But unfortunately our consumer protection laws haven’t quite caught up to the digital marketplace. So there is a lot of room on the internet in general for scammy behavior.
As always, it’s buyer beware. As well as a big amount of content creator beware as well.
That’s why I did not buy an eco flow or jackary. Too many influencers was a turn off. I went with BLUETTI.
Is nebula also a scam? I saw it sponsored on lots of youtube channels.
Pretty sure this was already posted yesterday when it came out. Or it might have been a different community.
Watching the full video is important though because they are scamming the consumer too, not just “”“influencers”“”. Someone made a great comment about how it’s just one greedy troll stealing from another and has no effect on the consumer since they still save money but Honey not actually giving you the best coupons on purpose is next level dickholery.
Lying about the coupons really should be the focus so people stop harming themselves using Honey.
See, I’m torn. I’ve never used honey, so I was never scammed. However I do think them scamming consumers is awful.
Buuuuuuuut, I DO enjoy the fact that they scammed influencers.
Yeah I thought that too until seeing the bits about consumers getting shafted. Awful company, hope they get sued into bankruptcy.
They are owned by PayPal, so that seems unlikely
It’s also kind of a protection racket against shops. “Partner with us or we’ll cut into your profits by spreading cheap coupon codes, but partner with us and we’ll protect you”
I used Honey before thr PayPal purchase and it did have working discount codes, as well as a cashback thing that I redeemed a couple times. But I haven’t had any codes work for a long time.
I don’t have any love for influencers but they have the right to make money IMO, and it’s completely shitty behavior for honey to be taking that away from them.
I never use affiliate links AND I don’t bother looking for coupons (let’s be honest, who does?) so I don’t give a crap, every now and then I’m saving money without taking it from anyone 🤷
idk, I find the coupon thing to be super easy. Just takes one search and maybe two clicks if you have ad blockers on. Mostly the only time is if I’m ordering something like pizza for a get together where no special applies. There’s a local chain in my state that had a coupon code for half off my order that wasn’t listed on their site (they might’ve given it to me if I called but who knows). Been using that for the past year and it allows me to convince everyone to go there instead of a national chain. I’ve also been lucky with some manufacturers coupons for products I’m ordering straight from them, it’s more rare though so it’s hit or miss sometimes.
I just look up price trends and that’s pretty much it for me too. Coupons rarely ever worked for me in the early days of e-commerce so I quickly stopped bothering.
Just saw a video that the honey people are making another SCAM called PIE. They make an Ad blocker, then put their own ads. wtf.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/VTxnM3J0I0k?width=828&height=466
Linus Tech Tips really is scum. Yet more proof of that.
Same person that said ad blocking was the same as piracy.
edit: People downvoting me like I disagreed with him. Just saying how he looks at it. I think it’s a bit of a false dichotomy but they are definitely similar.
Have you ever heard his full stance on the matter? Because he clearly stated that this is not a judgment against using it. Heck, he’s been open about having sailed the high seas himself and still doing so for media he physically owns.
It’s just that gaining access to media while circumventing the payment (ads in this case) is basically piracy. Which is fair.
Signed, A uBlock User
I trust Linus is being sincere when he says “it’s not a judgement” but blocking ads is being compared to a criminal doing copyright infringement (illegal). The word used is one originally meaning for a person murdering others on boats (immoral), and it’s used because it’s pejorative. It’s unavoidably judgemental.
If I hacked a server to get content then I would be circumventing payment at it shouldn’t be up to me how it responds to requests, I don’t own it. Google trying to enforce playing adverts via software running on my property is an unjust overreach. The user choosing what displays on their own monitor is not “circumvention”, it’s claiming ownership over your computing. Google could choose to verify on their servers if I’ve paid (in normal currency) but instead their servers act like adverts are an optional donation.
How much you want to bet he uses Ad block himself but it’s suddenly different when YOU do it on HIS content?
It…is? You’re copying digital content without paying for it. I use uBlock but I don’t pretend to have the moral high ground.
It’s… not? It’s protection against malware and profiling by shady companies.
It can be both things at the same time.
They are similar only if you presume there is an agreement of content in exchange for revenue from adverts. If you view the internet as a place for open collaboration, or oppose (internet) advertisement, then you wouldn’t presume that agreement and it looks very different.
It is. Taking from a service without paying for it, and actively avoiding the service making money via advertising is basically the same as watching a film without paying for it.
Both ways, you consumed a service and the people providing it got nothing, but it cost them something to create and provide it.
It was a matter of time until the public found out about this. They couldn’t think in the long term, by not accepting a bit of backlash, exposing the scam they unknowingly participated in they only opened themselves up for more later.
They are not only evil, they are stupid too, which is worse.
Ltt didn’t hide shit, they posted it on a public forum
They didn’t hide it, but a huge portion of their audience doesn’t read the forums. A 10 minute video of Linus ranting about them would have opened this scandal to a wider audience years ago.
Linus usually likes to rant about it on the WAN show then they usually make a clip for YouTube, but weird he didn’t do that for honey, maybe he didn’t know how far the scam went.
As creator that makes some of their profits from affiliate links, I don’t see how that could be the case for him.
Seems more likely they had a reason to avoid beef with PayPal.
Could have a non disparagement clause in their former agreement
non disparagement clause
Not the level of a non-compete clause but that’s a scummy thing I hope is not legal.
It’s fairly common. As far as legal, that will depend on the jurisdiction and the mood of the judge.
Especially considering he hasn’t been shy about ranting about a lot of things from (insert latest apple thing) to “fucking eggshell”
And then they took sponsorships from Karma which does the exact same thing
There may have been non-disclosure agreements between Linus tech tips and PayPal Honey. They may have threatened to sue him if he went public. I’m assuming we’ll find out the details in the next few weeks.
Some very vocal people on Lemmy just love hating on LTT. I don’t think this topic was worth them making a main channel video on, I think their forum post was good and I believe they even mentioned this functionality of Honey a few times on the WAN show. It wasn’t a secret, and anyone who cared to do in-depth research on a potential sponsor could have found out.
And yet here’s the scandal being exposed TWO YEARS LATER. Yeah, LTT couldn’t possibly have handled this better… /s
They told everyone and nobody cared, turns out people care if a YouTube video is made framing the same thing differently. Like yeah, Honey’s practice is bad for the creator industry, but is it bad enough to bring it back to the people who took their money? No, I don’t think so.I think this is more of an example of how easy it is to get the masses angry with a YouTube video than anything. It’s good that more people are going to move away from this information harvesting app, but I really feel like the reaction and hatred is overblown and, at least for the hatred towards creators, unwarranted.
The way I see it, people still take money from predatory gambling sites, and if any creator deserves pushback, it’s them.
[Added information: LTT say they were unaware Honey was mistreating users. So they had no reason to make a video at the time they dropped Honey for mistreating them.]
I don’t think this topic was worth them making a main channel video on
Their viewers getting scammed by tech they promoted isn’t worth a video on their main channel? If they could legally do it I think they should have.
Some very vocal people on Lemmy just love hating on LTT
LTT have made mistakes (edit: and made choices/comments I would disprove of) but the dunking here does seem disproportionate.
I’m definitely noticing a lot of hate warranted or not bjt it’s honestly also been hard to defend them after their last “scandal”. Once bitten twice shy…
Same reason I don’t try to give CD Projekt RED the benefit of the doubt anymore even though I loved Cyberpunk despite the messed up launch, and it seems they’ve largely redeemed themselves - I now realize where their priorities lie.
They could have been exposed to legal liability to report on a business partner like that.
If only they had some medium to post the information, perhaps a medium that that VAST MAJORITY of their viewers use.
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
I knew this was Douglas Adams by the tone but had to look it up to realize it was Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Time for a re-read!
Their complaint was that honey inserted their affiliate cookie even when they didn’t find a coupon code for you. I doubt they knew the full extent of the scam.
Plus, we don’t know what was in their contract with honey. They could still be subject to a non-disparagement clause.
GN doesn’t seem to have a problem holding their sponsors accountable, putting a story together, doing their due diligence, and then letting everybody know.
At this point, anything these goons “influencers” try to sell me on is a scam, and I’ll avoid it at all costs. People do insane things for money. Just watched a coffeezilla video on the CSGO gambling scam and holy shit, people are straight up heartless and have no humanity in them.
Why do I feel like mentioning the LTT was very personal?😂
They’re one of the largest tech media companies and deliberately chose to sweep this under the rug instead of reporting on it. Then they took sponsorships from Karma, which is a competitor to Honey that does the exact same thing.
LTT says to have not known users were being mistreated at the time they dropped the sponsor, and that they didn’t discover it but were informed.
No, they are not one of largest tech media companies They have less than what 100 employees. Maybe you used the wrong term?
When did they learn about it? Where your proof?
- It’s the holidays and a lot of content of made awhile, I don’t expect them to make dedicated statement.
seriously… did you watch the video?
https://youtu.be/vc4yL3YTwWk?t=785
Here. Here’s a link to the exact moment that entire chapter starts.
I watched it, but I’ll reserve my judgment until the next wan show because I don’t know if it has been mentioned before on an earlier show or how the problem has been interpret by staff.
… Ok well here’s the link to the moment (in the video you watched) where we have one **staff ** member giving an official response to how LTT interpreted the problem in a forum post on their website.
https://youtu.be/vc4yL3YTwWk?t=811
And here’s a link to their youtube channel where they talk about honey
https://www.youtube.com/@LinusTechTips/search?query=honey
You’ll notice. There isn’t one.
So for at least two years, they knew honey was stealing affiliate links and considered it a big enough problem to end their partnership, but did not consider it a big enough issue to make a video on it.
I dunno why you keep sending me a bunch of text and videos. I’m going to wait until the next wan show, so I can understand what really happened inside.
I’m down to listen to their response myself but as someone who tried really hard to explain away their last dumb controversy only to be proven wrong multiple times, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just pure negligence. Actions speak louder than words and their actions have shown they’re a flawed company like any other despite what their conversations on WAN show would have you believe.
Fuck Honey/PayPal first and foremost, don’t get me wrong. But unless there were legal issues around it, we also can’t ignore it if the biggest tech YouTube channel found out about one of the biggest sponsors on YouTube being a scam, stopped working with them for that reason, but said absolutely nothing to anyone else.
First of all, Lemmy has a lot of users for whom English is a second language. So maybe don’t be a jackass about correcting grammar.
Secondly, in case you happen to be in that group of people ‘largest media company’ in this context applies to their reach, and not to their actual size. They are ‘large’ because they have a large audience, generate a lot of revenue, and are worth a lot of money. LMG also comprises 10 different YouTube channels with maybe 10 billion views between them.
Look I’m not correcting grammar, I’m not native English speaker myself + I’m very dyslexic.
But when someone says the biggest tech media companies, you put them in same category as Disney, Apple and so on, which makes them very small.
Sometimes people exaggerate and if you point out what they said is inaccurate then they get mad you’re not addressing their main point.
People are going mad anyways, doesn’t really matter especially here on lemmy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
People are putting the blame on creators, instead of PayPal/honey, when creators are the victims too. We don’t know the full story from LLT from their side if “deliberately chose to sweep this under the rug instead of reporting on it”
If I’m questioning it, I’m going to get negative feedback because the narrative is they are to blame because they are “big”.
