That’s refreshing to see in a world of ever increasing enshittification. Wish more companies move in this direction.
I’m happy to see this announcement. However, just transitioning to a non-profit does not make an organization good. They can still be greedy and take advantage of their user base. That being said, it seems Proton’s mission statement resonates with a non-profit type structure. When you are accountable to the shareholders, they become the priority.
“don’t let perfect get in the way of good” or whatever that saying is. One step at a time, yeah?
If I remember right, OpenAi started with this model too, and they do lots of shady stuff. Not that this is the plan for Proton, but I completely agree that simply creating a nonprofit that owns the for profit brand doesn’t guarantee good behavior.
Yes Mozilla is a good example. They’re run like any other Silicon Valley company and spend more in C-suite develop their damn product.
This is what made me finally completely switch my email and docs to proton. I’m so close to being able to delete my google account now.
Well this and the docs live collaboration feature they recently added.
Switched mail and I’ll switch VPN once my old sub expires.
I wish it worked in the (iOS) app or had its own. A browser only experience isn’t good enough for me to use it.
Ya know, you may have just helped me finally make the full switch. Thank you
I thought it’ll take many more years until the acquired Standard Notes
Cool. I switched to Tuta because it fits my use case better (2 domains, one for my personal email and one for everything else). I don’t need any of the bells and whistles Proton has, and I also don’t want to pay extra to get more domains. The Tuta app kinda sucks, but it gets the job done. I’m hoping my wife and kids will be interested in private email, but they don’t seem to care, and I don’t think they’d like the tradeoffs.
Now, if Proton revises their tiers, I might be interested. Give me something like the Tuta tiers, and I’ll probably switch to it. I prefer the UX of Proton, but $10/month is a bit steep for me, especially since I’m not going to use the other stuff they’re bundling in (I use Bitwarden for PW manager, have my own NAS, and I prefer Mullvad over Proton for VPN).
That said, it’s super cool that they’re going non-profit. When that’s done, I’ll give it another look.
Problem with Tuta for me is its too closed off.
Proton at least offers an IMAP bridge, Tuta utterly refuses to let you use your email outside their apps, which makes it more of a messaging app. And the fact there’s no way to export everything easily or even forward messages rubs me the wrong way. I tried them and have been using them for about 2 years but I’d definitely love to get away from it.
I’m tired of these walled gardens. I don’t give a damn how secure it is, if I can’t leave it with my shit, then no thanks.
Yeah, it’s annoying, but I honestly don’t use any email clients anyway. So whether I use the Tuta or Proton app/website is essentially the same for me.
But you can export your email (select all then click “Download”), but unfortunately forwarding isn’t a thing. That does put a bit of a wrinkle into my longer-term use of it, so if Proton can become price-competitive for my use-case (and no, I’m not paying $10/month for email), I’ll probably switch. But since I can export them in some way, it’s not a deal breaker.
Are you me? Lol I feel the same about tuta, yet I such with them. I am waiting for my wife to care for her privacy and switch to a family bundle with tuta.
Got my own NAS and a Bit warden server for PW. I changed Mullvad over AirVPN once they stopped supporting port forwarding, though.
Yup, confirmed, I am you.
The Tuta app kinda sucks, especially for searching, but I do that rarely enough that it’s fine. It did annoy me a bit when I was traveling in Canada and needed to find my confirmation code for something (had to connect to their wifi, wait for emails to download, search, etc), but it got the job done. I love that I can just add another person to my plan for another €3 or whatever. I’m going to try to get my kids interested even if my wife isn’t, and it’s nice that I can just add a little at a time. With Proton, that would jump up to $15 for two users, $24 for my family (three kids). That’s a lot more than Tuta, which is just €3/user/month, so my entire family would be €15/month ($17/month), and I don’t need to get everyone on all at once (i would probably only add one or two at first).
So Tuta meets my basic needs, is priced very competitively, and the client is FOSS. I’m actually excited about some upcoming updates (looks like having the subject in the notification just landed, but hasn’t hit F-Droid yet), and I love how their roadmap is very open.
That said, I do miss the UX of Proton. I just don’t think that’s worth more for fewer features I actually use. Hopefully that changes.
Removed by mod
Your response makes it sound like you’re responding some kind of rage-rant. But from my reading, the post you responded to basically just lists a few things they like and dislike - clearly given as personal opinions. So your response reads as unprovoked hostility.
?
I think Proton is a cool project, I’m just a little disappointed at their pricing tiers. It’s probably fine for a lot of people, and hopefully becoming a non-profit encourages them to improve the value at each tier.
I actually used to pay for Proton when I was consulting. I think it’s a fantastic service, but now that it’s not really a business expense, I find it’s a little to expensive. So I have my business domain, my personal email domain, and a “junk email” domain all at Tuta, and I like that setup. But it’s not worth $10/month for me, it’s worth about $3-4/month, so I use Tuta. Privacy is really important to me, but price is also important, and Tuta checks both boxes.
I know I’m an outlier, just giving my 2c that Proton is a good service, and I hope they adjust their pricing with their new non-profit model.
FWIW Proton does offer a mail only plan that’s $5/month, 4 if you go for yearly
Right, but it only supports 1 custom domain. With Tuta, I get 3 for €3.60, €3 if I pay yearly. I could probably make it work, but why pay more for something that I’d have to make concessions for? If they supported more email addresses, I might just use their proton.me domain or whatever (I like separate email addresses for different services, so I can quarantine a breach; so I’ll do
<name>-<type of service>@<domain>), and only having 10 is a little limiting.I know I have specific and kind of weird requirements, but Tuta is currently doing a better job of providing what I want at a price I’m happy with.
Gotcha, that’s totally fair. Thanks for elaborating!
Your requirements are totally fair tbh.
That said, I think you can use aliases for the use-case you have, you don’t need full addresses. Proton supports “+ aliases” as well, so
name+service@domainworks, and most importantly they support catch-all addresses if you have your own domain. I now use actual aliases (the ones from simplelogin), which I generate on the fly, but if you can usewhatever@domainand it will be redirected to your configured address. You don’t even need to create this beforehand, so many times I was around and had to give an email address for some reason and I just made up an address on the fly. As long as you use your domain, the catch-all will get the email.So the 10 addresses only include actual addresses, the ones you can write from. You can have as many as you want to receive emails (which is generally the use case for signing up to services, right?). Just a FYI in case tuta supports the same and you are making more effort than needed!
Yeah, I already do something like
<name>-<category>@<domain>, and I’ll probably end up changing<category>to include a+for each account of that type. For example, all banking apps go to<name>-banking, which maakes it really easy to move emails automatically into folders. If I get an email from a bank without that-bankingpart, it’s spam. I do this with various categories (bills, shopping, etc). I have something close to 10 email addresses right now, and I’ll probably add more in the future.But basically, I have three domains:
- personal contacts -
me@family-domain- I only give this out to family and friends - work contacts -
me@work-domain- printed on business cards and any services related to my side business - everything else - all of those categories above; if this gets full of spam, I’ll just get a new domain, move my accounts over, and then let the domain expire
So far it’s working pretty well. To get that same setup w/ Proton, I’d need to pay $10/month, whereas it’s just $3-4 w/ Tuta. I’d be okay with combining the personal and everything else, but I really want to keep my work stuff on the same account (low volume, but high priority).
Interesting! That’s very close to this blog post I read long time ago (unfortunately medium.com link)! Are you actually sending emails from those addresses? Like if you need to drop an email to your bank, do you use the banking one or your personal (or something else)?
Fwiw, I do something similar. I use a mix of domain aliases without address (e.g. made-up-on-the-fly@domain.com) and actual aliases. Since I have proton family (and the same when I used ultimate) I have unlimited hide-my-email aliases, so I have it integrated with my password manager, and I generate a random password and email for everything I sign up now. These though are receive-only addresses. In fact, with this technique I probably use 3-4 addresses in total, but I have probably 30 domain addresses that go to the catch-all one.
Spam on these addresses are basically non-existing and you can still create folders based on recipient without having a full address (e.g. bank1@domain.com, bank2@domain.com). You can make folder categorization based on recipient regex and this way you also have the “stop bothering me” option: if some email gets into the wrong hands, you can create a spam rule for that dedicated address. However, my approach is that all of these are used just to receive emails, to send I have just a handful of actual addresses or -if really needed- I can create on-the-fly an address from a catch-all one, send the email and then disable it again (so it doesn’t count towards the limit, but I still get inbound email to the catch-all).
Nice setup anyway!
- personal contacts -
Did you respond to the wrong message?
I’m sorry I took this username before you got it. Clearly you deserve it more with posts like that.
what’s with the hostility?
Looks like some are fortune telling and seeing enshitification.
Not all companies go to shit. Valve is an example
Wtf
Touch grass.
This is definitely great news and refreshing to see from a company, but this came out two months ago.
Published on June 17, 2024
Edit: it looks like Proton just recently sent an email about this to their ProtonMail subscribers which is likely why this got posted just now.
Good. Profit and privacy are mutually exclusive in this industry.
You mean record breaking profit and privacy. Edit: actually I bet drug cartels probably do both, at least some (\s)
I would imagine any privacy measures cartels take are seen as overhead more than anything else
Of course it is good news, and I’m an happy Proton customer since over an year, but this Proton blog post dates back 2 months now…
They just pushed an email announcement out, which is probably where OP heard about it.
And that makes it irrelevant because…? I’m a subscriber and I wasn’t aware of this until this post…
They literally sent the email out within the last 36 hours. My work account got it this morning, and my personal last night.
The email was more of a summary of past changes.
The actual donation of shares to the Proton Foundation was a little while ago, and anyone directly subscribed to the Proton Blog probably already saw it (myself included), so seeing it show up again as if it was new news probably just felt a bit jarring to some people.
Good for them, I love being able to play Windows games on Linux.
Switched from gmail to Protonmail and Outlook to Tuta.io and love it! Companies that put privacy and the individual first.
Just wanted to point out that it does not change anything from privacy and security perspective about their products.
Also they are still operating as a normal company internally (they still offer their vpn through a third party provider and they still work to achieve the highest income from their products).
I switched to Proton Mail in 2019, and recently started switching to their VPN service to use port forwarding. Glad to see Proton is putting their money where their mouth is.
I’ve been too critical of them in the early days and will admit that many of the issues that plagued their VPN service years ago have now been fixed.
If so, will they re-think tiers? Or maybe they could give the option for users to choose what they need exactly and what they’re willing to pay? (i.e current Proton plan that costs 8-12€ per month is too much for me, but I would gladly pay like 5€ monthly for little storage, VPN and few email aliases)
Edit: Proton has REMOVED the P2P tick from the VPN on this plan since I took the screenshots below. That sucks.
I would gladly pay like 5€ monthly for little storage, VPN and few email aliases)
Includes VPN with P2P and streaming, Drive with 15GB, Proton Pass, etc.
I don’t think this plan supports P2P. You’re still on the free plan with the VPN.
Edit: Looks like I was wrong. I remember needing to switch to a better plan to get the P2P but I guess I was wrong.
Edit 2: There is some inconsistent information on the Proton site regarding what is included in each plan and this seems to be the source of our confusion in this thread.
Edit: Proton has REMOVED the P2P tick from the VPN on this plan since I took the screenshot below. That sucks.
Here is a link: https://proton.me/mail/pricing#compare-plans
I have asked. You only get VPN Free: https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/112988334950564963
This is correct
Update: I have used Mail Plus since before Proton VPN was a thing, and have never been able to P2P download–Proton should make this clearer
Edit: Proton has REMOVED the P2P from the VPN tick on this plan since I took the screenshots. That sucks.
That is incorrect. Here is a link: https://proton.me/mail/pricing#compare-plans
Yo I see you on your link that you are right. I stand corrected. Maybe. This link says something different and so I’m not actually sure what’s correct. Let me know what you think. It seems like there’s some conflicting information
Interesting. That’s a support article so is less likely to be up-to-date than the pricing page, but that being said I’m on Unlimited and don’t know what the Plus plan provides with certainty.
Yeah you must be right with that pricing page. I think it’s also unclear what is offered in terms of VPN when you actually try to purchase the Mail plus plan. At any rate, lots of ways for people to be confused about what plan includes what.
Is this for Mail Plus or Proton Unlimited? I pay for Mail Plus, and have continually gotten the “P2P is blocked” page whenever I try to redownload the Ubuntu 22.04 ISO–maybe I should complain
Although looking at the VPN section, it does appear that the Free and Mail Plus plans have the same checkboxes, so perhaps I am reading it correctly
The column with the ticks is for Plus not for Free, so yes you should definitely complain to support.
Now this is fascinating–I’m seeing no ticks in Plus! Maybe it varies by country (located in Canada, but I think I pay in USD)
Didn’t they get shit recently for AI and crypto related decisions ? Did they backtrack on that ?
They did not. This is another marketing play
Is this going to be the same kind of non-profit as OpenAI? With a mission to improve the world? Yeah, let’s see how that goes. Another Proton marketing play on their set track to enshittification.
OpenAI is now for-profit since they got funded by Microsoft.
This is old news. Why are you posting this just now? I mean I don’t really care much. I transitioned to Posteo as soon as I learned that they stored the private key. They don’t even let you use your own GPG key, useless honeypot. Their recent bitcoin wallet supports this. If they cared about privacy, they wouldn’t go with Bitcoin. They have been ignoring requests for monero since years.
They also are getting into the AI hype, so I can’t trust my data with them.
You can use your own GPG key (https://proton.me/support/importing-openpgp-private-key or using the bridge), whatever tool does the signing needs the key (duh) so I am not sure what you mean by “they store your private key” (they stored it encrypted as per documentation https://proton.me/support/how-is-the-private-key-stored), their AI was specifically designed as local, exactly to be privacy friendly, plus is a feature that can be disabled (when it will reach general subscriptions).
I don’t care about cyptocurrencies, but I suppose they started with the most popular, nothing to do with privacy as they just let you store your currencies.
Anyway, use what you like the most, of course, but yours don’t look very solid motivations, quite a lot of incorrect information, I hope you didn’t take your decision based on it.
You upload your private key to the cloud. Encrypted or not, this is a bad idea. No thanks. I can do the signing locally and then I’ll do the decryption with my own private key locally without them storing it as well.
Edit: mixed public keys with private keys
You upload your private key to the cloud. Encrypted or not, this is a bad idea.
An encrypted key is a useless blob. What matters is the decryption key for that key, which is your password (or a key derived from it, I assume), which is client side.
They can do the signing and encryption with my public key
They can’t sign with your public key. Signing is done using your private one, otherwise nobody can verify the signature.
Either way:
and then I’ll do the decryption with my own private key locally without them storing it.
You can do it using the bridge, exactly like you would with any client-side tooling.
It’s still insecure. They decryption process is still in the proton company hands and they could add some client specific code to log the password on the fly. Proton is obliged to follow the swiss law and I can imagine situation that police asks proton (+ gag order ) to log certain data for specific clients like passwords and ips. Still private keys are better to be stored separately. You can sync them easily if you with with either rsync or rclone
It’s not “insecure”, it’s simply a supply chain risk. You have the same exact problem with any client software that you might use. There are still jurisdictions, there are still supply chain attacks. The posture is different simply by a small tradeoff: business incentive and size for proton as pluses vs quicker updates (via JS code) and slower updates vs worse security and dependency on a handful of individuals in case of other tools.
Any software that makes the crypto operations can do stuff with the keys if compromised or coerced by law enforcement to do so.
In any case, if this tradeoff doesn’t suit you, the bridge allows you to use your preferred tool, so this is kinda of a moot point.
The main argument for me is that if you rely on mail and gpg not to get caught by those who can coerce proton, you are already failing.
I used bridge for many years. It was totally unusable - 1) you cannot delete emails with it ( deleted emails were coming back ), 2) synchronization issues so it made me move to another “plain and simple” email provider offering pop3 and imap and also gpg integration ( but without that e2e hype talk )
I can’t comment on this, since I don’t use the bridge for a while. But it’s just an IMAP/SMTP server, so not sure why certain features wouldn’t work. What service did you end up using which has gpg integration?
Exactly. There’s no justification for them storing the private key online for “convenience”. And key generation happens in the browser with JS. Which means it is possible to send backdoored JS to easily copy the private key.
endof
Especially with the fact that: 1) deminificafion of the javascript code is not simple 2) you cannot “freeze” the code version you use. Still your computer does allow it ( minus the windows which follows the Microsoft thinking way, kidding about windows updates )
There is a reason: simplicity. Either you do all the key management yourself, which in practice means 98% of the people won’t do it at all, or you implement a solution like they did and increase the risk of a small % (see my other comment) but you cover every customer.
That simplicity introduces security and privacy issues.
Yeah mb. Mixed private keys with public keys. Edited original comment.
This is old
“I know this. Why doesn’t everyone else know this? They should be me, I’m the smartest man alive.”
I really don’t care much
proceeds to type an entire paragraph as to why you don’t care
