Biden shares many of my values and goals, but because he isn’t perfectly aligned with my values and goals, I’m voting Trump, a man that shares NONE of my values and goals, as a protest. What could go wrong?
Democracy works by criticizing your elected officials until they make necessary changes. People NEED to be putting Biden’s feet to the fire to end the genocide in Palestine. Just because Trump would be worse doesn’t make what Biden is doing ok. Criticism of one isn’t an endorsement of the other. And Biden NEEDS the votes of everyone criticizing his response to the genocide. Instead of harassing people trying to end genocide, you should be asking why Biden supports genocide more than the young voters who he needs to win in November.
The meme implies protest at the polls. Their comment is reflective of that sentiment. Criticize and protest US support of Israel independent of casting your vote in rebellion. The point stands that Trump encourages eradication of the Palestinians and Ukrainians, while oppressing working class Americans and repealing climate change progress.
I’m not voting for genocidal geriatrics either way sorry
You know that just means you’re picking the worst of the two, right?
That’s what he really wants he just doesn’t want to say it out loud
You’re going to get one whether you like it or not. Do you want the nicer geriatric or the one who wants to burn shit down? Because if we don’t try to stop it, this will be 2016 all over again.
I hope you choose to vote, or are at least ok with letting the fascist take over because of inaction. “I’m NoT vOtInG fOr GeNoCiDe” is a stupid argument when not voting is more likely to elect the full throated genocider.
I really don’t see how some people can sleep at night with their choices…
If you can’t vote for no genocide, then you are in a sham democracy.
Trump is only 4 years younger than Biden. They could’ve gone to high school together. Lol
I think they were calling them both genocidal geriatrics.
It starts to get quite boring, is that all you people have? He’s old yeah, both are, but Biden won’t run the country all by himself you know. About the genocide, he sure could have tried to do more, but how in hell is that his fault? I mean are all politicians worldwide genociders because they didn’t stop the horrors in Gasa?
Grow up.
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What values and goals does Biden share with Leftists, other than not being as far-right as the Republicans?
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Who said anything about voting for Trump? I myself am voting Biden most likely because he isn’t as bad as Trump, but I share practically nothing with his views.
What person is criticizing Biden from the left but actually voting for Trump, other than the strawman you created?
Supporting of unions is a pretty big thing biden supports that leftists also support, nevermind his views and actions on climate change and bodily autonomy.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
Biden has given concessions to Unions, that does not make him pro-Union. He has fallen excessively short on Climate goals and has done little to expand abortion protections.
Being less right wing for a liberal does not make Biden a Leftist, it just makes him less of a bad thing.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
“Biden helped unions get what they want, that doesnt mean he helps unions.”
Do you even read what you’re typing?
On the subject of abortions, what do you think he can do short of publicly speaking about his support for bodily autonomy? A president isn’t a king.
Why are so many progressives so uneducated on how our government works?
Biden tossed scraps, yes. He has not proposed radical changes to the anti-union policies that exist everywhere, he has not supported strikes, and he has not expanded protections to Unions. Believe it or not, a Pro-Union candidate can do these things! Biden isn’t actually pro-union, he just tosses scraps when strikes happen.
Yes, I do read what I am typing. I want a Pro-Union candidate, not a neutral one, so I will criticize Biden.
I believe Biden can quit playing softball with regards to abortion. Biden is the king of virtue signaling, he isn’t a king but he does have power.
Moreover, Biden is a Capitalist going far out of his way to support ongoing genocide. I am not going to be happy with his Capitalism, and I certainly won’t be happy with his genocide.
Im not sure it’s possible to be more pro-union than being literally the only president in united states history to ever step foot onto a picket line and protest.
He is doing what he is legally able to do for abortions and unions. The president is not a lawmaker, nor a king like you would seem to have him be.
Again, its not his fault you seem to be ignorant of the structure of the US government.
I literally gave you examples of how a President could be more Pro-Union: by presenting and helping pass actual Pro-Union legislation that protects worker’s rights to strike and form unions. Another good one would be mandating that all companies be unionized, or companies of a certain size must have union representatives participate in Board meetings.
Virtue signaling does nothing materially, it’s an optics thing.
He isn’t doing what he can do, lmao.
I am not ignorant of the structure of the US government just because you believe the job of the US president is to shout slogans and steer the country off vibes, lmao
So supportive of unions, thats why he adopted Ronald Reagans policy of making it illegal to strike . All hail the Union loving strike breaker. Couldnt even get em sick days give me a break.
Edit: yes they eventually got sick days, only one of these things was passed via law/ executive order, guess which one? The intervention was a huge step backwards for labor rights
This is blatantly false.
Biden did get the rail workers union sick days. Its not his fault you cant read.
https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
He made sure to remove agency from the workers in the process
The end result may have been favorable, but it seems wack to use this an example of Biden supporting unions. Seems more like he disenfranchised them instead
The union strikes and saber rattling achieved their own results. The workers had the power since they scared the establishment to give them what they wanted. However Biden took all the credit for it even though he crushed their union rights which just goes to show how irrevocably damaged the liberal brain is
Either way, it’s an example of Biden placing himself above workers. I was misled by all the liberals posting about how great Biden was for giving the workers what they want.
I am not immune to propaganda.
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just because trump would be worse, doesnt mean biden isnt really bad
Biden isn’t in charge of Israel.
he approved a lot of money to go there
and he did absolutely nothing to stop it
Is biden in charge of the purse strings of congress?
Well you are a fucking idiot who doesn’t understand what a vote is.
A+ genocide shilling here.
Jfc nobody said to vote for trump.
Realistically what do you hope to accomplish by voting for someone else or not voting?
Goddammit I never said not to vote. What do you hope to accomplish by only voting?
Okay then answer the other part of my question. That’s why I included it.
What other part?
Realistically what do you hope to accomplish by voting for someone else?
I’m not expecting to accomplish much of anything by voting for someone else. I prefer direct action.
It’s the logical conclusion of your statements
It’s sarcasm. And voting for a minor party candidate is a vote for Republicans.
Such a low bar. No wonder your country is crumbling.
Sarcasm. I’m making fun of people.
I’m trying to think what values biden actually shares with me.
He passed the IRA, rejoined the Paris Agreement, repealed the transgender ban in the military, restored net neutrality, defended the use of mifepristone, supported Ukraine, and relieved some student debt. That’s enough to earn my vote.
Right, but when your beliefs involve the dissolution of capitalism, these are more like perpetuating the system.
Even the people who believe in dissolving capitalism have accomplished nothing but perpetuate the system.
Its that shitty Ben shapiro meme. “You hate the system yet you participate in it, curious?”
Yeah not really many options when you’ve gotta put food on the table. The change comes from the top down down down Esit: I may or may not be misreading your comment.
The top doesn’t have as many options as people think.
Ben Shapiro is dumb and I don’t fault anyone who can’t bring about a worker’s paradise, provided they make an incremental improvement in the lives of others. That includes Biden.
After taking millions of tiny steps forward, we’ll eventually get to where we need to be.
Too bad at this rate, the planet will be burnt to a crisp before we get anywhere close to good enough.
No time for baby steps. Perhaps its selfish, but Id like these changes in my lifetime, please.
That’s the biggest lol in history
Just out here telling on yourself, huh?
Lol
Correction: “I’m voting for Biden to make sure the things that are happening right now continue to get slowly better, instead of getting immediately and significantly worse.”
That’s what they said back in '96 when I voted for Ralph Nader. Now we’re on the precipice of American democracy falling to fascism, if not now, then very likely in 2028. That doesn’t look to me anything like slowly getting better.
Some things have definitely improved in that time, e.g. the recognition of same-sex marriage, or the nascent resurgence of labor unions. Those things have been the result of slow, tough, hard work by the grassroots.
In that same time, though, the Democrats have been slowly helping to put the mechanisms of a fascist state in place, like the PATRIOT ACT, FISA, neutering the 4th Amendment, bolstering the Espionage Act, and setting up collaborative efforts between state police, Federal agencies, and the corporate sector to crush protest movements.
That said, the world is indeed shades of grey, and I voted for Biden in 2020 to stay fascism, if only for a little bit. It’s better to vote for the right-wing candidate versus the fascist candidate. I want to vote for him again, but there are some lines that must never be crossed, and I can’t in good conscience vote for a President enabling genocide. (The fact that both candidates do is madness.)
Maybe my calculus would be different if there were a reasonable chance that Democrats would do the things that are within their power to do to check the rise of fascism, but I have no confidence of that, as the track record shows otherwise.
Edit: Auto-correct damage.
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Can you clarify whether you’re talking about Clinton or Biden?
Where do they say they lived in Florida?
Biden is slowly worse, Trump is quickly worse. Liberalism is not about moving leftward, it’s about continuing Capitalist hedgemony.
Slowly worse is still better than quickly worse, as that means there’s more time to find a better solution.
You won’t. This is a 100 year lesson, when will you learn it?
Sorry, I don’t get the reference. 😅
Given Lemmy I assume 1917
Let me make it more clear then. 👏There 👏is 👏no👏solution 👏through 👏voting! Only improvements have happened through unions, protests and riots.
Hey, I generally agree! It’s impossible to revolutionize a system while sticking to the rules of that system. We can and should fight wherever possible to improve things for our fellow man, no matter what we’re “supposed” to do as defined by the people that stand the most to gain from our apathy.
But that fight includes voting for the lesser harm. Voting for Biden to stop Trump from being president is an entirely valid strategy – and for the people who stand the most to lose, like racial and gender minorities, we cannot ignore harm reduction.
We can’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
Biden was voted in and you had a failed coup. Did you people go and the streets and demand justice? no. You just got worsening conditions and another genocide. Voting didn’t do anything. It didn’t prevent anything. The decent into fascism is inevitable if people just keep voting because they think voting does something. This delusion needs to be ripped out so that people do anything else.
Lol things have not gotten slowly better through voting ever or have you somehow missed the last 100 years?
Have you?
Well no, which is why I ain’t voting. Since it’s useless
This is literally the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard in my life, and that’s saying quite a lot.
Stupid, stupid take.
You best not be in a swing state. We’ll anyway, if you aren’t going to be trying to improve things with the rest of us, shut up and get out of the way
Voting doesn’t improve anything. We’ve already said this
Then shut up and let the grown ups talk
No u
Do you unironically believe that life hasn’t gotten better for literally everyone that’s not a Rockefeller since 1924? I think you may have brain damage. Which is a much more treatable condition than it was in 1920 fucking 4.
Correlation is not causation Life has gotten better because of all the struggles outside of voting
Voting does not change the whims of the powerful. The powerful continue to push their will. Currently that will is massacres and genocide. Genocide Joe does have a nice ring to it. Vote or don’t. The powerful will get their way.
Voting is easy in my state, so I will. My current amusement is voting against incumbents. Preference is Third Party > Democrat > Republican.
Beyond the entertainment of voting: keep building mutual aid networks, be a good neighbor and use a pokeball if 2025 gets ghastly.
Well no the powerful won’t get their way if we unite and scare them into submission. Our societies have done this multiple times
I agree that united we can push back. Creating horizontal power structures provide the push. Ideally, dismantling hierarchical power over merely scaring it.
End of segregation. Interracial marriage legalized. Voting rights for native americans. LGBT rights…
Nope, no progress there.
Did those happen because people voted, or was it because of large-scale protests and pressure?
Both. You can’t get what you want by only doing one or the other. If you don’t vote, you can’t pressure sane politicians that don’t get elected, and the insane fascists are just going to ignore you. And we all know that voting alone isn’t the solution
People need to stop acting like voting is the end all/be all, or that not voting/withholding your vote sends a message rather than let’s psychos who want to destroy democracy have their way.
They like to pretend like successful protests are a people’s moment, but protests don’t go anywhere without in-power support. MLK was establishment as fuck. The National Guard provided a replacement when his PA system failed at the million man march. You gotta make your opinions known by voicing them publicly and supporting candidates that are sympathetic to your cause. Even better, become part of the establishment yourself and be the helpful politician you wish you could vote for.
MLK was not establishment as fuck, most of his protests were illegal, and he regarded the “white moderate” who agree with his goals, but think things must be done slowly and within the system as just as great if not greater obstacle than the klansman.
It seems to have been buried to the sands of time, but I once read an excellent article explaining why modern protest movements have a terrible track record compared to the ones from before the 1980s (or so). The book “If We Burn” by Vincent Bevins has a similar theme.
The long and short of it is that modern protests are too easy to organize, and don’t represent any real power. You can start a Facebook event and get loads of people to show up and stand in the street, but that’s pretty much it. In order to organize a protest in the 1960s, you had to have an established organization and power structure. You had to have regular meetings and a bureaucracy in order to get a large number of people to show up and protest. That same bureaucracy could also be used for other things, like supporting or opposing particular political candidates, and the oppositional and sympathetic establishment knew that.
A modern protest is toothless. It has no weight behind it. If you want to have enough power to take on the establishment that you oppose, you have to become equally structured and monied in order to fight them. That’s what it means to become a part of the establishment. You might not join the established teams, but you’re going to become so well organized and bureaucratic that angsty teams would immediately write you off as boring and just another part of the system if they ever had to participate in one of your long term planning sessions.
On an individual level my suggestion is to join the system and change it from within, because one person doesn’t make for a very powerful organization. Plus, it’s rare for any random person to have the chops or resources to build up a political organization for themselves. On the collective level, you gotta start holding committee meetings.
We have the largest protests since the Iraq War, and your “sane” politicians are telling us to fuck off.
I seem to remember those things happening because of protest and struggle.
Elected officials only care about protests when they start losing votes.
Their username can answer this question
I’m voting for Biden because I don’t want Trump picking the next couple Supreme Court justices.
It’s not funny anymore. Stop voting for Trump ironically.
Just… Stop. Please.
Who is ironically voting for Trump?
There were people when Trump was running who told me they would vote for Trump strictly because fuck the system
Don’t forget the ones that did it for lols. Some just want to see the world burn. It’s like vaccines, they weren’t around when we didn’t have them, so they never saw the awful things that happened without them. Just like they’ve never lived under the horrors of authoritarian tyrants. They don’t know the horrors that can happen. Or they just assume they’ll be spared all the consequences.
And you believe they are here, or people who share their views?
They did fuck the system alright
Realistically, what are you gonna do? The time for another candidate came and went, so all intents and purposes you’ve got either Biden or Trump.
Refusing to vote en-masse to stick it to the DNC sounds great, but is it worth giving Trump the keys to the castle?
The guy who’s repeatedly given open support towards Israel “war”, told them they should “get the job done” - hell his only condemnation towards them is the fact Israel recorded any of it.
Trump being in would only change things for the worse, and that’s just with Gaza - I’d argue the status quo is better than the alternative.
Though it’s fucked we ended up in this situation in the first place.
You flip the monopoly board.
That’s what you do.
And how many lives are you willing to spend to do that?
Fewer than Biden is extinguishing in Palestine. Right now. Every day.
Hopefully.
Depends on when they get the message.
The US has 66 times the population of Palestine. You would get 66 times the amount of death and starvation if you “flipped the board”
Oh, fuck off genocide sympathizer.
Fuck off fascist fuck.
I hope you’re the first off the board when Biden loses.
You people are always willing to sacrifice other people’s lives to change the system.
I am willing to change the system to stop its currency from being how many lives it takes.
I know trump would be worse, but this post is just expounding on how shitty biden still is. Being 5% better than trump isn’t good and he knows he could be better but he’s not.
5%? Who hurt you? It’s way more than that. More like 95%.
You have a literal elderly criminal idiot vs a seasoned politician elderly idiot who won’t fuck the country over like DJT did.
But then again I have been on 5 continents and know for a fact Americans are the dumbest people when it comes to having coherent awareness of their situation.
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Ironic you’re calling me an idiot when you can’t see the damage neoliberals like biden have caused and continue to cause. For starters, guy is literally enabling a genocide. He can’t even bring himself to call trump and his goons in the GOP fascists. I do mutual aid work with various organizations and I see the suffering these so called progressives in government allow to continue year after year while spending billions on bullshit like police and the defense industry.
I know i’m not part of this ongoing debate, but it seems like you’re both right for different reasons. From an american standpoint, biden is significantly better, because of the social programs and liberal motivators he puts in place. As far as directly effecting american lives, biden helps and trump hurts.
From a global capitalist perspective, they’re both the same, with biden being slightly worse because those same social benefits pacify the left into apathy towards stopping global war, genocide, destabilization of exploited countries, and the rise of global surveillance.
Since we are forced to choose, biden seems better for america, but how does any real change happen if we’re all given our treats to stay obedient.
deleted by creator
I am very aware of that damage. You seem the unaware one, with regards to Trump.
What a novel and salient point, you should keep making it every day until the election.
As we know the president is responsible for everything and Congress and state government don’t matter at all.
Disclaimer: this post is sarcasm.
I will keep making it long after the election.
He’s desperately trying to stop things, but he is completely powerless and that’s not his fault, but also he has actually gotten tons of great stuff done and you’re just ignoring it, and you should ignore the bad stuff he’s done because his opponent will do worse, but most importantly any good stuff he hasn’t done was impossible for him to get done, and that’s why you should vote for him
Personally, I hear you, but his denial about the campus protests is definitely gonna make things worse for garnering the young vote.
No, you don’t hear them. They, and OP are mocking libs telling people to vote for a candidate who demonstrates over and over that they do not want the things we want, and will either not stop or help republicans do the things they want.
It’s kind of sad, they understand the democrats do not want the things they want, so they cannot influence them into doing the things that will win the election, so all they can do is tell people not to believe their lying eyes.
What’s the alternative, give the country over to Trump and his sycophants? No one likes what’s happening but as much as I want a change in the current trajectory everything would just be worse under Trump, not just Palestinian conflict.
There is no alternative. Helping the democrats maintain the delusion that they can be the party of fascism-lite and still win elections is not a viable strategy to win elections.
Telling the dems “You restarted student loans, anything short of forgiving all student debt is literally worse than what we had under trump, if you want to get elected, ending the additional harm you caused is a minimum” until they start doing the things they need to do to get elected is the only way they will get elected.
The alternative is to pressure the democrats into doing the things they need to do to win the election. Currently they are laboring under the delusion that they can win just by saying “Oh, we want the things you want, we’re just powerless until you give us uhhh 50% in the senate! No 61! No, 64 because of Fetterman, Sinoma, and Manchin! You can do it, just vote a little harder and we’ll stop doing the opposite of what you elected us to do!” and “Well trump would also do the horrible things we’re doing, so you have to vote for us”.
That’s why they lost in 2016 and 2022, and trying to silence criticism just helps them maintain that delusion.
Too make sure it doesn’t get worse faster*
I’m voting for Trump because I have no concept of mitigating damage.
He sure does know how to increase entropy fast(er)
The entire system is fucked and first past the post needs to go away at all levels.
Imagine wanting the guy who said he thinks Israel should finish the job as long as they don’t record it, repealed 111 climate policies in one term, and gave massive tax breaks for the rich at the cost of workers, all while installing the most oppressive conservatives we’ve had to the Supreme Court, because you think “he’ll be different this time.”
It sounds like our nation is experiencing battered woman syndrome.
Nobody said that
Unfortunately, the polls do. I understand his loyal base not budging, but plenty of people are under the impression that abstaining or voting third-party in November will do anything but get Trump back in the White House.
Nobody said to not vote. Just that it wouldn’t solve a lot of what we’re currently experiencing.
Can you see how that implies suggesting the alternative of apathy?
So I’m not allowed to criticize biden?
On the contrary. You absolutely should. I upvoted because I thought it was funny. I commented because I’m concerned some people can’t distinguish criticism and protest from voter disengagement.
This is my problem with this sort of post too. Do I think Biden could do better and deserves some criticism? Yes. Do I think there are people out there who, if convinced that Biden deserves criticism, would decide not to vote? Also yes. Am I terrified of the potential outcome of that? VERY MUCH YES.
Glad we’re on the same page.
Voting is about picking your opponents, not your teammates.
That is very sad
Is it?
I figure it’s just how democracy has to work. Governance is too complicated to just set it and forget it every 2-4 years.
Even if you somehow elect an ideal candidate, you’re still going to disagree at some point during their term.
There are plenty of no-win scenarios, opportunities to trade a short-term loss for a long-term win, etc. where you might agree on goals but not tactics and you end up having to petition/protest them.
And that’s in the ideal case.
You might as well assume that whoever ends up in The Room Where It Happens, they’re going to sit down on the opposite side of the table from you — not next to you.
I guess that’s kinda cynical, but I really don’t mean it to be. I think it’s just a more healthy way to frame participatory democracy. Your job is not done at the ballot box. That’s just to set the parameters for the real work.
It all comes down to the biggest pain of current elections: strategic voting. If there was an ideal candidate you wouldnt vote for him because you d vote less bad so that more bad does not claim the throne. There are numerous systems which solve this problem but somehow both less bad and more bad dont have any reason to establish them. Of course there are many other faults with current voting systems and especially US system. If you want a proof that the system is fucked and needs to be abolished look at 1992 usa elections - not only did 19% of votes equate to 0(!) spots in the house or senate, there is a reasonable arguement to be made that the fact that Ross Perot entered the election has changed its outcome (spoiler effect). It is sad that US elections have reached an equlibrium where there are only two possible candidates who dont even have to try. After all “47% of the people will vote for the candidate no matter what” (intentional misquote)
So much reasonable discourse in these comments.
Welcome to another Hexbear brigade thread…
Define reasonable discourse
you just did
Jesus Christ we’re getting Trump as president.
Nice knowing y’all.
Im voting for him because he is the best president of my lifetime with the possible exception of carter.
As a person Carter will be hard as hell to beat…
hes the closest thing to mister rogers as president.
I’m curious what you think makes him better than Obama?
Obama got almost nothing done in his first term mainly do to trying to work across the isle. Biden was not shackled with this given how clearly republicans have made it that they are not going to work in good faith at all.
Biden isn’t working across the aisle? Several of Biden’s initiatives have been bipartisan. If anything, I think his greatest achievement has been getting bipartisan support during the most politically divided times since the civil war.
Every time I see a vote its mostly party line with possibly a few “defectors”. Its crazy how partisan it is now
the genocide?
it’s already happening…
Wow lemmy getting brigaded by military industrial complex bots? (The downvotes)
