Rep. Joe Morelle, D.-N.Y., appeared with a New Jersey high school victim of nonconsensual sexually explicit deepfakes to discuss a bill stalled in the House.
Think of the children being used to push an agenda that helps the very wealthy? Well I’ll be, what a totally new and not at all predictable move.
Ban all ai that aren’t owned by rich people, make open source impossible, restrict everything that might allow regular people to compete with the corporations - only then will you children be safe!
I’m as suspicious of “think of the children” stuff as anyone here but I don’t see how we are fighting for the rights of the people by defending non-consensual deepfake porn impersonation, of children or anyone.
If someone makes deepfake porn of my little cousin or Emma Watson, there’s no scenario where this isn’t a shitty thing to do to a person, and I don’t see how the masses are being oppressed by this being banned. What, do we need to deepfake Joe Biden getting it on to protest against the government?
Not only the harassment of being subjected to something like this seems horrible, it’s reasonable to say that people ought to have rights over their own likeness, no? It’s not even a matter of journalistic interest because it’s something completely made-up.
We’re not talking about whether we should make fakes. We’re talking about whether people who do, should be prosecuted - IE physically overpowered by police officers, restrained with handcuffs, and locked up in a prison cell. Some empathy?
If some classmate of your little cousin makes a fake, should the police come and drag them out of school and throw them in prison? You think that would help?
Realistically, it’s as likely to happen as prosecution of kids who “get into fights” for assault. Kids tell mean lies about each other but that is not resolved in civil suits over defamation. Even between adults, that’s not the usual thing.
Civil suits under this bill would be mainly targeted against internet services, because they have the money. And it would largely be used over celebrity fakes. That’s the overwhelming part of fakes out there and they have the money to splurge on suing people who can’t pay. It would be wealthy, powerful people using it against horny teens.
Also, this bill is so ripe for industrial abuse. Insert a risqué scene in a movie, and suddenly “pirates” can be prosecuted under this.
You do have a point about the excesses of police work, but if you want to talk about empathy you should also consider the position of the kid who is harassed and traumatized over something they didn’t even have any say over. There is some discussion to be had over what degree of punishment ought to be appropriate, and the need to limit police brutality, well beyond this particular matter.
But as far as demanding that every such work is taken down, and giving vulnerable people the means to demand so without exposing themselves further, it is perfectly reasonable.
Realistically, it’s as likely to happen as prosecution of kids who “get into fights” for assault. Kids tell mean lies about each other but that is not resolved in civil suits over defamation. Even between adults, that’s not the usual thing.
Except that in the case of deepfake porn it’s not a matter of fuzzy two-sided conflicts. One side is creating the whole problem, and one side is just the victim of it despite not being involved in any way. That’s the whole point of deepfake. The most that lies might play into it is in finding out that the porn is real, and in such case there is even more reason to take it down.
Civil suits under this bill would be mainly targeted against internet services, because they have the money. And it would largely be used over celebrity fakes. That’s the overwhelming part of fakes out there and they have the money to splurge on suing people who can’t pay. It would be wealthy, powerful people using it against horny teens.
Gotta say I have a hard time feeling sorry for the people who can’t be satisfied by the frankly immense amount of porn we have and decided that they absolutely must have porn from that one specific person who never consented to it. Maybe they are wealthy and powerful, sure. Does that mean it’s a free pass to fabricate deepfake porn with their likenesses? I don’t think so. Nobody is owed that. As much as you insist that it will be used by the powerful against the poor masses, it still seems to me that whatever regular dude decides to do it is crossing serious boundaries. This is not brave freedom fighter, it’s just an asshole.
I think most likely what will happen is that these internet services will just take those down. As they should.
Mr. Vulpine, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this chat room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Any reason why you are quoting Adam Sandler movies at me?
Because if you have any criticism you could at least be specific and original.
Ahhhh, fine. It’s reasonable to say that people ought to have rights over their own likeness? So if you’re walking down the street and someone’s recording you, what? You melt down over your likeness? Hide in your house for fear that someone will take a picture of you?
Don’t you know? People already do have rights over their likeness and we already have laws regarding that. To some extent you are allowed to record public locations and events, and you don’t need to seek permission to every passerby. But it doesn’t mean you can record people and use their images in every location and situation.
Not to mention, we are talking about deepfakes made to look like specific people. I don’t think you are going to accidentally pass by someone’s deepfake porn while taking selfies on the streets, so there’s not much point of bringing this up.
So someone is gonna tell you when they use your picture/ video for their personal use?? Lol bro
Which is why the proposed bill targets distributors.
You talk about it as if you never seen laws that apply to the internet before.
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You kind of have to be rich in order to run these image generation AIs. The RTX 4090 TI isn’t cheap.
The NVIDIA 1660 ti is perfectly adequate and not only the property of rich people.
You kind of have to be rich in order to run these image generation AIs. The RTX 4090 TI isn’t cheap.
Any iPhone or iPad on the current version of iOS can run Stable Diffusion locally with the (free) Draw Things app.
Hell, if you’re willing to run on the CPU instead of the graphics card (which takes much longer) you can get Stable Diffusion working on pretty much any PC. And honestly any semi-recent nVidia card will have drivers to run it.
What’s more, there are free sites for SD image generation.
Image generation isn’t expensive, and it gets cheaper and cheaper every year.
Creating fake child porn of real people using things like Photoshop is already illegal in the US, I don’t see why new laws are required?
Well those laws clearly don’t work. So we should make new laws! Ones that DEFINITELY WILL work! And if they don’t, well I guess we just need more laws until we find ones that do.
Since we need a rule explicitly for AI related cases, even though it’s already covered by others, lets ensure that we also make a 100 page law for if the material is explicitly made in Photoshop, and also another 80 pages if it was made in Gimp. If you use MS Paint to do it, we need a special 200 page law that makes the punishment even harsher, because damn you got skillz and need to be punished more.
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No, I’m not criticizing the bill’s content. If you don’t enforce laws, new ones won’t work either. The new ones are, at best, an opportunity for people to huff and puff and pat themselves on the back at the cost of actual victims. At worst, it’s smoke and mirrors for what the new law actually does.
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This is not at all about protecting children. That’s just manipulation. In truth, kids are more likely to prosecuted than protected by this bill.
There are already laws that could be used against teen bullies but it’s rarely done. (IMHO it would create more harm than good, anyway.)
This is part of an effort to turn the likenesses of people into intellectual property. Basically, it is about more money for the rich and famous.
This bill would even apply to anyone who shares a movie with a sex scene in it. It’s enough that the “depiction” is “realistic” and “created or altered using digital manipulation”. Pretty much any photo nowadays, and certainly any movie, can be said to “altered using digital manipulation”. There’s no mention of age, deception, AI, or anything that the PR bullshit suggests.
Regulatory capture. OpenAI wants to kick down the ladder
I really wonder whether this is the right move.
This girl, and many others, are victims and I don’t want to diminish that, but I for better or worse I just don’t see how legislation can resolve this.
Surely deepfakes will be just different enough to the subject to create reasonable doubt that it depicts the subject.
I wonder whether, as deep fakes become commonplace, people might be more willing to just ignore it like any other form of trolling.
I hope it won’t overregulate technology itself but instead would be ruled by already existing means about defaming people and taking photoes without their consent, sharing them. Plus, if she’s a teen, it’s a production of CSAM. This person had an illegal intent, just used a new tool not unlike others, just more efficient.
Surely deepfakes will be just different enough to the subject to create reasonable doubt that it depicts the subject.
That’s a major assumption. Do people really think a school board will really consider that when a student creates a fake Only Fans of a teacher? A random University or Company doesn’t even give reason for denying an application when they see any form of online nudity? People are lazy as fuck and will just move on to the next candidate or let someone go to save their own image rather than that off the victim.
My point is, when it becomes as easy to generate deepfakes as it is to order your groceries, the question will become “why is the university searching for deepfakes of everyone”
My dude there are people out there thinking they’re in a relationship with Johnny fucking Depp because some Nigerian scammer sent them five badly photoshopped pictures. Step out of your bubble, maybe. This shit isn’t easy to spot for the vaaaaaast majority of people and why would this lie with the victim to sort of clear their name or hope that idiots realize it’s fake?
Especially with and around teenagers who can barely think further than their next meal?
Good lord.
WDYM “step out of your bubble”?
It’s not a question of being able to detect whether or not a video is fake. When deepfakes become so prevalent that everyone’s grandma understands that they’re prevalent, it won’t matter whether you can identify the video as fake.
I think you’re right if the goal is to stop them all together.
But what we can do is stop people from sending them around and saying that it’s true/actually the person.
Once they’ve turned it from a art project into a weapon, it should have similar consequences to “revenge porn.”
I would think this would be covered by libel, slander, defamation type laws. The crime is basically lying about a persons actions and character.
I don’t know how strong the laws are on the topic but I feel this falls under harassment or libel. In most cases this will cause emotional distress and harm to a person’s reputation. If you’re trying to show off your AI skills you can use a subject that isn’t real or depict a real person wearing clothes. This is clearly an attack in my mind.
Photos of a person can vary in subtle ways too, perhaps as a person ages or even just changes their makeup or something. It’s not valid to require everything to be perfectly clear-cut in some objective way.
Life is subjective, which is why courts always try to take the mental state of the accused into account, things like whether malice was present, whether the accused was in a rational state of mind, etc. This is why we have first and second degree murder as two different things.
I think it doesn’t go far enough. Straight up, no one should be permitted to create or transmit the likeness of anyone [prior to, say, 20 years following their death] without their explicit, written permission. Make the fine $1,000,000 or 10% of the offender’s net worth, whichever is greater; same penalty and corporate revocation for any corporation involved. Everyone involved from the prompt writer to the work-for-hire people should be liable for the full penalty. I can’t think of a valid, non-entertainment (parody/humor), reason for non-consensual impersonation - and using it for humor or parody is a slippery slope to propaganda weaponization. There is no baby in this tub of bathwater.
Yeah, just like the FBI warnings on VHS tapes about massive fines and jail time stopped us from copying them in the 80s and 90s…
no one should be permitted to create or transmit the likeness of anyone [prior to, say, 20 years following their death] without their explicit, written permission.
I dig the sentiment. I do. And If this were my own fantasy world, I’d agree. But unfortunately, we don’t live in the timeline where that is considered even close to reasonable.
I’m not sure this is practically possible.
A $1m penalty is more or less instant bankruptcy for 99% of the population. It’s probably not much of a deterrent for, say an 18 year old. In my jurisdiction I don’t think there are criminal penalties higher than a few thousand dollaridoos. It doesn’t matter whether you think this act is so aggregious that it deserves a penalty 1000 time higher than any other, my point is that it would be unenforceable ineffective.
Secondly, how do you determine whether an image is someone’s likeness? Create any random image and surely it will look like someone, but that doesn’t mean that creating that image violates that someone.
The missing factor is intent. Make a random image, that’s that. But if proven that the accused made efforts to recreate a victim’s likeness that shows intent. Any explicit work by the accused with the likeness would be used to prove the charges.
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Lol your wife has seemingly zero ability to critically think of a position other than her own, in the context of a discussion.
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Cool, but my comment isn’t incorrect based on your literal words.
You pitched an argument you read online, for discussion.
She questioned your integrity, as if you held that position as your own.
She clearly lacks the ability to consider your voicing a third party, hypothetical point, as a separate actor. This is indicated by your words regarding her vehement revulsion and need for you to assert out loud that YOU don’t hold that position.
Also not sure where you got the evidence I’m unfamiliar with either that author, or the word “permutation” as this thread discusses neither.
How dare you claim his wife isn’t the sweetest, smartest person in the world. You MUST be wrong!
More laws that will only affect people who follow laws
I mean, they do usually effect the people that break them and go to prison too.
You mean the poor and disadvantaged?
Ah yes, the poor and disadvantaged who can afford a computer and an ai program and who make ai csam.
When working properly, everyone equally. I will admit we do not nearly reach that standard, though.
The ideal is there but how do you imprison organizations that have more money, connections then some nations.
The moment big money gets involved governments stop upholding even themselves to the law. I work at a subdivision under some part of government and the amount of unpaid court ordered fines for human right violations is massive and increasing. The fines can’t be paid cause there is no money. The problem causing the right violations can’t be fixed cause there’s no money. Yet government swims in money.
I think getting money out of politics will be a necessary first step towards addressing this.
Isn’t that… all laws?
Might as well not make any laws then.
How? How will this only effect people who follow laws? If you aren’t making ai porn of real underage girls how would this affect you, a law abiding citizen?
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I would have thought that deepfakes are defamation per se. The push to criminalize this is quite the break with American first amendment traditions.
If I understand correctly, this would put any image hoster, including Lemmy, in hot water because 230 immunity is only for civil suits and not federal criminal prosecution.
the text of the bill exempts service providers from any liabilities as long as they make a good faith attempt to remove it as soon as they are aware of its existence. So if someone makes AI generated revenge porn on your instance as long as you take it down when notified, you want be in trouble.
Which part says that?
Section 2252D (a) Offense.—Whoever, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, discloses or threatens to disclose an intimate digital depiction—
“(1) with the intent to harass, annoy, threaten, alarm, or cause substantial harm to the finances or reputation of the depicted individual; or
“(2) with actual knowledge that, or reckless disregard for whether, such disclosure or threatened disclosure will cause physical, emotional, reputational, or economic harm to the depicted individual,
…
(d) Limitations.—For purposes of this section, a provider of an interactive computer service shall not be held liable on account of—
“(1) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of intimate digital depictions; or
“(2) any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or other persons the technical means to restrict access to intimate digital depictions.
So the law requires intent and carves out exceptions for service providers that try to remove it.
The lower part just says that overeager removal of depictions does not create liability. Say, onlyfans bans the account of a creator because some face recognition AI thought their porn depicted a celebrity. They have no recourse for lost income.
As to the upper part, I am not sure what “reckless disregard” means in this context. I don’t think it means that you only have to act if you happen to receive a complaint. If you see nudes of some non-porn celebrity, then it’s mostly likely a fake. It seems reckless not to remove it immediately. What if there are not enough mods to look at each image. Is it reckless to keep operating?
(d) Limitations.—For purposes of this section, a provider of an interactive computer service shall not be held liable on account of—
“(1) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of intimate digital depictions; or
“(2) any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or other persons the technical means to restrict access to intimate digital depictions.
I appreciate your reading into the text. I am not a lawyer so it isn’t always clear how to read the legal language crafted into these bills. Since the quoted part of the law is under the criminal penalty section of the bill, I read it as releasing the service provider from criminal liability if they try to stop the distribution of it. I see your point as how you read it and that makes sense to me
Yes, expressions can have meanings that are unclear to non-experts, like reckless disregard. It means specific things in the context of specific laws and I can’t guess how it should be interpreted here.
shall not be held liable on account of any action taken
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to restrict access.
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to make available the technical means to restrict access.
I took some words out to improve readability.
I believe the second one is for, EG, someone making a database of banned material, so that it can be filtered automatically on upload. Or if someone uses those images to train an AI to recognize fakes. For that purpose it will be necessary to “disclose” (IE distribute) the images to the people working on it; perhaps an outside company.
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If (as it seems) the point is not impersonation but damage to the person’s honor/image, where exactly is the line?
If realism is the determining factor, what about a hyperrealistic human work? And if it is under human interpretation how realistic it should be, could a sketch be included?
A sketch would probably not convince anyone that the subject consensually participated in sex acts that never occurred.
Good question. The bill doesn’t define realistic. There’s no condition that it should fool anyone.
This definitely goes beyond AI and includes photoshops, 3d renders and any other digital art. I think it would also include hand drawn images, once they are digitized, EG by photographing them on a phone. Always provided that the depictions are in some way “realistic”.
I feel we are in need of a societal shift here, just like another commenter said about the printing press. When that first came out, the pushback was from the worry that the words would be attributed to someone who never said them (reverse plaigerism). The societal adjustment to this was the universal doubt that anyone said that thing without proof.
For generative AI, when it becomes widespread, photos will be generateable for literally everyone, not just minors but every person with photos online. It will be a societal shift; images will be assumed to be AI generated, making any guilt or shame about a nude photo existing obselete.
Just a matter of time so may as well start now!
I agree that this is probably the inevitable end result of the proliferation of the technology. The journey society is going to have to take to get to that point is going to be pretty uncomfortable though I think.
How different is photoshopped fakes from AI fakes? Are we going to try to bad that too?
ETA: *ban that too. Thx phone kb.
What does the method matter? If the result is an artifact that is convincing enough for the average person to believe that the subject knowingly posed for sex acts that never occurred, the personal experience and social stigma is traumatizing no matter how it was made.
As the sociologist Brooke Harrington puts it, if there was an E = mc2 of social science, it would be SD > PD, “social death is more frightening than physical death.”
What does the method matter?
That’s my point. If we’re going to ban AI fakes should we then ban ALL fakes? Where do we draw the line and how do we do that without limiting free speech? I’m not sure it is possible.
And the days of believing everything you see are over but most don’t know it yet.
Where do we draw the line
It’s ever-changing. We’re social animals, not math equations, so it’s all according to the kind of society we want.
how do we do that without limiting free speech?
All freedoms are in tension between “freedom to” and “freedom from”. I can have the freedom to fire my gun in the air. I can have the freedom from my neighbor’s randomly-falling bullets. I can’t have both of those codified in law (unless I’m granted some special status over my neighbors).
I think that, many times, what we run into is a mismatch between a group thinking in terms of “freedom to” and a group thinking in terms of “freedom from”.
The “freedom to” folks feel like any restriction on their ability to act is a breach of liberty, because they aren’t worried about “freedom from”. If, for example, I live in the middle of nowhere and have no neighbors, what falling bullets do I have to fear except my own?
The “freedom from” folks feel like having to endure the effects of others’ actions is a breach of liberty, because they aren’t worried about “freedom to”. If I spend my life dodging falling bullets, I’m not likely to fire more into the sky.
And the days of believing everything you see are over but most don’t know it yet.
We said the same thing about the printing press. And it plunged us into a long period of epistemic chaos, with rampant plagiarism and reverse-plagiarism (attributing words to someone who never spoke them). The fallout of this led the crown to seize presses and allocate exclusive printing rights to a chartered monopoly (with some censorship just for funsies).
We can either complain it’s too hard and do nothing, eventually leading to an overreaction to a policy that is obviously not sustainable… Or we can learn from history, get our heads in the game, and start imagining a framework that embraces the transformative power of large-scale computing while respecting the humanity of our comrades.
C2PA is a good start, but it’s probably DOA in the hacker zeitgeist. We tend to view even an opt-in standard for proof of authenticity as a gateway to universal requirements for proof of authenticity and a locked-down tyrannical internet forever and ever. Possibly because a substantial portion of us are terminally online selfish assholes who never have to spend a second worrying about deepfakes of ourselves. And also fancy ourselves utilitarian techno-solutionists willing to sacrifice the squishy unquantifiable touchy-feely human emotions that just get in the way of objective rational progress towards a transhuman future. It’s a noble sacrifice, we say, while profiting disproportionately and suffering none of the fallout.
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Victim is underage. Why don’t you take a seat over there?
Would it help if I wrote /s like some ledditor m’sir?
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This comment got rule 3’d for a joke.
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