• iAmTheTot
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    1451 year ago

    No one gets a second home until everyone has their first.

      • iAmTheTot
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        61 year ago

        Surely in the 21st century we can engineer a system in which the moving party is allowed a time period to settle in and sell the old property. We must have the technology and manpower to do this meagre task.

    • @Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      01 year ago

      People who own second and third homes aren’t even the issue. It’s mega corps that literally own tens of thousands of homes each. A better way to go about it is to just progressively tax people more per home. That second home gets taxed at the same rate but any home after is taxed way way way more. If someone can still afford it then that’s fine, just more tax money coming in. That and don’t let corps own rental properties.

      • @Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world
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        01 year ago

        In Texas, your property tax is already somewhat two tiered. Your first home is taxed as a homestead and you get an exemption on part of the property tax. If you own a second, third, etc you have to pay the full amount and the annual increases are not capped. Im not 100% sure on the specifics as I don’t own more than 1 though.

        • @Got_Bent@lemmy.world
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          01 year ago

          Your not homestead house will be ~$2,000 higher in taxes than if it were not homestead. Exemption is up to $100k I believe, so I’m going off roughly 2% of exemption for additional taxes.

            • @Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 year ago

              At some point the taxes would be so high that nobody could afford to rent and the owners would lose money forcing them to sell. Which is fine. Just gotta make the taxes higher for more than x houses.

  • @rekabis@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    Posted in a Canadian channel before, because I am Canadian:


    The housing crisis arises out of one problem, and one problem only:

    Housing as an investment.

    That’s not to say foreigners are to blame - at less than 2% of the market, they don’t have any real impact. British Columbia’s laws against foreign home ownership is nothing more than a red herring, a bullshit move designed to flame racism and bigotry. Yes, some of them are just looking to build anchors in a prosperous first-world country, but most are honest buyers.

    A better move has been the “speculation tax”. By taxing more heavily any home that remains empty, it encourages property holders to actually rent these units out, instead of holding out for people desperate enough to pay their nosebleed-high rents.

    But all of this misses the real mark: housing used purely as investment.

    Now, to be absolutely clear, I am not talking about landlords who have a “mortgage helper” suite, or who have held on to a home or two that they previously lived in. These are typically the good landlords that we need - those with just two or three rental units, and that aren’t landlording as a business, just as a small top-up to their day job or as an extra plump-up to the retirement funds they are living off of. By having many thousands of separate landlords instead of one monolith, healthy competition is preserved.

    No, there are two types of “investors” that I would directly target:

    1. Flippers
    2. Landlords-as-a-business.

    1) Flippers

    The first group, flippers, also come in two distinct types:

    1. Those that buy up homes “on spec” before ground has even been turned, and then re-sell those same homes for much more than they bought shortly before these homes are completed. Sometimes for twice as much as they paid.
    2. Those that buy up an older, tired home, slap on a coat of paint, spackle over holes in the walls, paper over the major flaws in hopes that inspectors don’t catch them, and shove in an ultra-cheap but shiny Ikea kitchen that will barely last a decade, then re-sell it for much more than they paid for it.

    Both of these groups have contributed to the massive rise in housing purchase prices over the last thirty years. For a family that could afford a 3Bdrm home in 2000, their wages have only increased by half again, while home values have gone up by five times by 2023.

    And this all comes down to speculation driving up the cost of homes.

    So how do we combat this? Simple: to make it more attractive for owner-occupiers to buy a home than investors.

    A family lives in a home that they own for an average of 8 years. Some less, most a lot more. We start by taxing any home sale at 100% for any owner who hasn’t lived in said home as their primary residence for at least two years (730 contiguous days). We then do a straight line depreciation from the end of the second year down to 0% taxation at the end of the eighth year. Or maybe we be kind and use a sigmoid curve to tax the last two years very minimally.

    Exceptions can exist, of course, for those who have been widowed, or deployed overseas, or in the RCMP and deployed elsewhere in Canada, or where the house has been ordered to be sold by the court for divorce proceedings, and so forth. But simple bankruptcy would not be eligible, because it would be abused as a loophole.

    But the point here is that homes will then become available to those working-class people who have been desperate to get off of the rental merry-go-round, but who have been unable to because home prices have been rising much faster than their down payment ever could.

    This tax would absolutely cut investors off at the knees. Flippers would have to live in a home much, much longer, and spec flippers would be put entirely out of business, because they can’t even live in that house until it is fully completed in the first place.


    2) Landlords-as-a-business

    The second group is much simpler. It involves anyone who has ever bought a home purely to rent it back out, seeking to become a parasite on the backs of working-class Canadians in order to generate a labour-free revenue stream that would replace their day job. Some of these are individuals, but some of these are also businesses. To which there would be two simple laws created:

    1. It would become illegal for any business to hold any residential property whatsoever that was in a legally habitable state. This wouldn’t prevent businesses from building homes, but it would prevent a business from buying up entire neighbourhoods just to monopolize that area and jack up the rent to the maximum that the market could bear.
    2. Any individual owning more than 5 (or so) rental units (not just homes!) would be re-classified as operating as a business, and therefore become ineligible to own any of them - they would have to immediately sell all of them.

    As for № 2, a lot of loopholes can exist that a sharp reader would immediately identify. So we close them, too.

    • Children under 24 “operate as a business” automatically with any rental unit. They are allowed ZERO. Because who TF under the age of 25 is wealthy enough to own rental units? No-one, unless these units were “gifted” to them from their parents, in an attempt to skirt the law. So that is one loophole closed.
    • Additional immediate family members are reduced by half in the number of rental units they can own. So if a husband has the (arbitrary, for the sake of argument) maximum limit of five, the wife can only have two herself. Any other family member who wants to own a rental unit, and who does not live in the same household, must provide full disclosure to where their money is coming from, and demonstrate that it is not coming from other family members who already own rental units.

    By severely constraining the number of investors in the market, more housing becomes available to those who actually want to stop being renters. Actual working-class people can exit the rental market, reducing demand for rental units, and therefore reducing rental prices. These lower rental prices then make landlording less attractive, reducing the investor demand for homes and reducing bidding wars by deep-pocketed investors, eventually reducing overall home values for those who actually want to buy a home to live in it.

    Plus, landlords will also become aware of the tax laid out in the first section that targets flippers. If they own rental units that they have never lived in as their primary residence, they will also be unable to sell these units for anything other than a steep loss. They will then try to exit the market before such a tax comes into effect, flooding the market with homes and causing prices to crash. They know that they are staring down two massive problems:

    Being stuck with a high-cost asset (purchase price) that only produces a low-revenue stream because renters have exited the market by buying affordable homes, allowing plenty of stock that is pincered by the spec tax that heavily taxes empty rental units, thereby lowering rental prices well beneath the cost of the mortgage on the unit.

    By putting these two tools into effect at the same time, we force a massive exodus of landlords out of the marketplace, crashing home values to where they become affordable to working-class people, thereby massively draining the numbers of renters looking for places to rent. Those places still being rented out - by owners who have previously lived in them, or by investors who couldn’t sell in time - would significantly outnumber renters looking for a place to rent, thereby crashing rental prices as renters could then dictate rents by being able to walk away from unattractive units or abusive landlords.

    Full disclosure: I own, I don’t rent. But I have vanishingly little sympathy for greed-obsessed parasites that suck the future out of hard-working Canadians who must pay 60% or more of their wages for shitbox rentals to abusive landlords in today’s marketplace. Most people (and pretty much anyone under the age of 30) who don’t already own no longer have any hope of ever owning a house, as their ability to build a down payment shrinks every year, while home values accelerate into the stratosphere.

    • @Makeitstop@lemmy.world
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      261 year ago

      Creating massive penalties equal to the whole cost of a house for anyone that sells after less than 6-8 years would have devastating unintended consequences. It might make flipping impractical, but it would also hurt a lot of people who find themselves in a position where they need to sell, and would increase the risks associated with buying a house for lower income buyers.

      It would help if you targeted the profit from the sale instead of the whole price. Flipping is about buying low, minimizing the cost of improvements, and then selling for a massively inflated amount. Without that profit it’s not worth it. For a normal person, being able to make money on the deal is nice, but at least recouping your costs can keep you economically stable and allow you to move on with your life.

      I also think that you would want to combine this with some plan for helping low income buyers with the restoration of neglected properties that would normally be snatched up by flippers.

      I also think the arbitrary age restriction on owning a rental property needs an exemption for inherited properties if nothing else. A 20ish year old who inherits a home or rental property when their parent(s) die is not abusing a loophole, and immediately hitting them with additional legal problems and forcing them to sell a house that has a tenant already in there is just unnecessary chaos for everyone involved.

      I’m also curious how large apartment complexes fit into this plan. Are they also banned? Do you just need an owner to occupy a (potentially much nicer) apartment in the building? If you can still operate a huge apartment complex, I would expect the market to shift heavily towards those. If you can’t well, that raises it’s own issues around urban housing and population density.

    • @flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works
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      101 year ago

      That’s a quality rant, I love it! The other guy had a point about zoning to allow greater density, but I think that’s a separate but related issue.

      Obviously these will never come to pass while your leaders are all landlords, though

    • @Yondoza@sh.itjust.works
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      81 year ago

      Love this write up! Thank you for posting, I really like your ideas. Out of curiosity how would apartment buildings work in your plan. There are many cities where you probably don’t want to encourage single family homes to reduce urban sprawl. How would you encourage high density housing in your plan?

      • @rekabis@lemmy.ca
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        61 year ago

        Apartments can either be owned by families that upgraded to a house, and are now renting it out, or it can go full social housing where it follows the same model as Vienna, for example.

        You need administration to manage an apartment or any physically combined housing, but nothing says that the building itself or the underlying land needs to be owned by a corporation. In fact, true social housing is “owned” by the people, the rent you pay is just for upkeep and to pay off a very long term cost-of-construction bill. Some families in Vienna’s social housing pay less than 20% of their income on rent. You get in young enough, and you’re paying a pittance by the time you retire.

        • @trafficnab@lemmy.ca
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          51 year ago

          Strong public housing would put most of the ratfuck kinds of landlords out of business by itself, if an affordable non-profit apartment is basically available to anyone who wants one, the private companies jacking up prices for pure profit now have to compete with that, and we solve the inelastic demand issue

    • @AlolanYoda@mander.xyz
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      51 year ago

      I did not read all of this yet. But I always agreed with you on that housing as an investment was the crux of the problem, I just never knew exactly how to tackle it. Your write-up is great, and even if there are many issues that could arise from some of the implementation ideas, it’s an amazing beginning to a conversation we should have been having for at least decades.

      Thank you very much! I will save this comment to come back to often.

    • @frezik@midwest.social
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      21 year ago

      The housing crisis arises out of one problem, and one problem only:

      Housing as an investment.

      My city has a rental vacancy rate of <4%, and a homeowner vacancy rate of <1%. Flippers leave a house empty while under the process of flipping it, and that’s not what the numbers show. Landlords do increase the cost compared to ownership (they have to cover all normal costs of ownership, plus have profit for themselves), but they don’t reduce the number of shelters being occupied. Not when vacancy rates are this low.

      In other words, my particular city may have costs driven up by flippers and landlords, but the number of dwelling units would be short even without them. Getting rid of them would be an insufficient solution, even if there are some benefits on costs. It does not address the problem that we need more dwelling units.

    • @BaldManGoomba@lemmy.world
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      11 year ago

      Housing units, July 1, 2022, (V2022) USA 143,786,655 Owner-occupied housing unit rate, 2018-2022 64.8% If only 2% is foreign owned that is 2,875,733. Which is a hell of a lot of units

  • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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    511 year ago

    No person should be allowed to own more residential property than they’re realistically need for living.

    • TimeSquirrel
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      131 year ago

      I’m just curious how we’ll define “realistic”, because someone who’s into just software programming might be satisfied with a studio apartment. I can’t live without my basement workshop however. I like to make stuff.

    • DessertStorms
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      61 year ago

      This is it right here. Housing is a right, not a commodity. Landlords shouldn’t exist.

    • BlanketsWithSmallpox
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      21 year ago

      Do you allow couples to own two houses then? How do you prevent two people living together from not owning a second house to rent?

      Also, you’d be surprised just how little a person needs to live in lol.

  • Norgur
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    351 year ago

    That sounds like a solution but isn’t. In my experience, the corporations I had as landlords were completely aware of what they are allowed to do and are obligated to do. The private landlords I had were the craziest bitches imaginable. Stuff didn’t happen as it should have, laws were intentionally misinterpreted and twisted, etc.
    The reason why my experience differs so much is laws. Here in Germany, we’ve got strong renter’s protection laws. They are still too weak in some places but really, really clear in most. So while my private landlord tried to make me pay for repairs, the company doesn’t bother with such illegal bullshit, sends over a contractor they work with regularly and shit gets done.

    • We have those problems here (the US) too but the greater problem is that corporations buying up homes is driving increases in housing prices. Greater housing prices leads to higher rent and higher mortgage payments, fucking over regular people every which way, unless of course you happened to buy your home 30 years ago, in which case everything’s peachy and you can reverse mortgage yourself into a vacation home in Boca.

      • @ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works
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        111 year ago

        Then with all that cash they drop some of it on buying the lawmakers, preventing or removing renter protections. Once that’s done, remove things from the lease that cost $$, up the rent. Profit even more.

      • @CylustheVirus@beehaw.org
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        21 year ago

        We have a self inflicted real estate speculation problem. Housing can be a good investment or it can be affordable, but not both.

    • @ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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      51 year ago

      The problem isn’t corporate ownership of housing, it’s generalized speculation in the real estate market.

      If you want to buy rental housing to maintain it for people to live in, that’s a legitimate thing that benefits society.
      If you want to buy housing for the purposes of reselling it for more money, or converting permanent housing into rentals or illegal hotels, that doesn’t have value.

      Housing should be for people to live in. Hotels should be for people to stay in.

  • @frezik@midwest.social
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    351 year ago

    A co-op is another form of corporation. Dense, multi-family structures should be done that way.

    What we don’t want is for housing to be a speculative investment. Remove the profit motive of holding a house that’s empty and reselling.

    • interolivary
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      1 year ago

      Up until very recently most housing in Finland was co-ops, and it’s still extremely common although many new developments are built and owned by corporations which then rent them out.

      I live and own shares in a new housing co-op (proportional to the size of my apartment), and all of us together own and run the building and we’re renting the property from the city (although you can buy your share of that property off from the city if you don’t want to pay that rent.) It’s not a perfect system by any means but it’s better than corporations owning everything; ideally the people who live in a building are the ones who decide how it’s run, but of course that’s sort of gone out the window too with rich people just buying properties speculatively and to rent them out. If enough of the shareholders in a building are rent-seekers, upkeep of the building is going to go way down because they don’t live there themselves and don’t give a shit about whether it’s a nice place to live in, they care about making a profit.

    • R0cket_M00se
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      21 year ago

      Damn. Someone that actually understands how things work and isn’t just painting absolutes across the board.

  • @snake_cased@lemmy.ml
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    311 year ago

    Landownership is wrong all together.

    If you think about it, it is completely absurd, why anyone assumes the right to ‘own’ a piece of land. Or even more land than the other guy. Someone must have been the person to first come up with the idea of ownership, but it is and was never based on anything other than an idea, and we should question it.

    After all inheritance of landownership is a major cornerstone of our unjust and exploitative society.

    • ForeverComical
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      211 year ago

      Every generation, people want to try new things and it’s nice. But landownership can and has been and good thing in a way that just going back to “anarchy” wouldn’t work. E.g. creation of ghettos, who gets to farm the best land, etc.

      So then the suggestions are that the land are owned and “managed” by the state apparatus. Now we have a few famines in history to show us how gaining favor in a political system is not the best way to manage the land.

      I’m open to better suggestions but just shitting on land ownership seems easy and unproductive.

      • @Aasikki@sopuli.xyz
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        131 year ago

        If someone owns a house, they kinda have to own at the very least some land around it. I just don’t really see any other way for that to work. Would be interesting to hear how that could work otherwise.

      • @Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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        101 year ago

        Now we have a few famines in history to show us how gaining favor in a political system is not the best way to manage the land.

        Doesn’t that also mean The Irish famine shows private land ownership isn’t the best way to manage land?

        • @Jax@sh.itjust.works
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          -31 year ago

          The potato famine was caused by a new type of blight being brought from the Americas back to Europe.

          I don’t see how being beaten by a novel disease has anything to do with private land ownership.

          • @Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            The blight affected all of Europe, yet only Ireland had severe famine because while the French government bought food for their citizens, the English government publicly declared the invisible hand of the free market would fix the famine.

            Similarly the Ukraine famine was crop failure due to bad weather conditions that affected all of Eastern Europe. The crop failure wasn’t caused by the Soviets. Yet only Ukrainians died because the Soviets shipped Ukrainian food to Moscow in the same way Irish died because of free markets shipping Irish food to London. (Yes, Ireland was still a net exporter of food during the famine.)

            When natural disasters occured it’s, “Millions died because of communism.” Yet when millions die under the free market it’s only the natural disaster and not capitalism.

          • @meyotch@slrpnk.net
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            101 year ago

            They grew enough potatoes to feed the population in spite of the blight losses. However said taters fetched a higher price abroad. So fuck the poor, I guess.

              • Exocrinous
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                21 year ago

                Also they would have had a higher diversity of crops if not for landlords. Landlords were extorting farmers and the only way the farmers could pay the bills was with the vegetable that had the highest margin. Farmers were forced to switch from other crops to growing potatoes by their landlords.

      • @WanderingVentra@lemm.ee
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        41 year ago

        I’m pretty sure the Native Americans didn’t believe in land ownership, at least not individual land ownership, more of a communal version, and it worked out well for them. They had huge societies, vast trade networks, and were able to feed themselves fine. It requires a different, non-capitalist, non-Western mindset, but it can work.

          • @WanderingVentra@lemm.ee
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            61 year ago

            Neither was the Western population at the time, but it scaled up fine. There’s nothing saying alternative systems of land ownership can’t scale up either. The only reason we went with the current one is because it benefited the people who killed everyone else.

          • @Kentifer@lemmy.world
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            21 year ago

            Why is it that their population hasn’t grown in the same way as people with other views on land ownership, do you think? Is it because the other people were the good guys in your imagination?

    • @nexguy@lemmy.world
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      61 year ago

      People like the idea of the stability ownership offers. You can’t be kicked out of your house or off your land you own because your income dropped out lost a job. How would you suggest this stability is maintained?

    • Pyr
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      -11 year ago

      Unfortunately land will fall into disrepair if someone doesn’t actually own it. They have no incentive to invest in its upkeep if it can just be taken away at any moment. There’s a reason rental buildings have a reputation for being unkempt, the renters don’t want to pay for the upkeep since it’s not theirs and the landlords don’t want to pay for the upkeep because they don’t live there.

      It gets even worse if government owns it, it would take 6 months just to get a light bulb changed let alone a new roof or hedges trimmed.

      • @Varan1@lemmy.world
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        31 year ago

        Land that falls into “disrepair” has already been savaged, devastated and altered by greedy human hands in the first place.

      • @ruplicant@sh.itjust.works
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        21 year ago

        so i guess over 20% of houses in Austria, Netherlands, or Denmark have no lights and leaking roofs. if only those people got their own…

      • @snake_cased@lemmy.ml
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        11 year ago

        That might be the case in your country, but there are many cultures that are perfectly capable of sharing and keeping common infrastructure in good conditions. Your personal experience isn’t generic and globally true.

        A country’s land should not be owned by individuals, in my opinion, but used by those who need it and when they do so. A country’s land is what makes it a land, so it cannot be owned or sold. Someone inheriting it from someone who took it and maybe sold it should give no legitimate claim to possession.

  • @ruplicant@sh.itjust.works
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    151 year ago

    no real estate taxes for the first house owned, heavy and progressive taxes starting on the second, is an idea

    companies get called people all the time, i’m starting to believe it, but i still think they don’t need shelter, so they shouldn’t be able to aquire a basic human need

  • @Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    One to four units should only be owned by people and the owner should have the obligation to live in it or there should be a radius around their property in which they can’t own a second one.

    Five to eight units should only be owned by well regulated corporations with the fiscal responsibilities this implies. The alternative would be co-ops.

    Nine and more should be under a non profit state corporation that charges rent based on trying to break even only (that’s how road insurance for people works around here, price is adjusted based on the previous year’s cost to the corporation, it’s way cheaper than private equivalents elsewhere in the country).

    • @Zoboomafoo@slrpnk.net
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      11 year ago

      Your plan cuts out normal people from the most likely reason they would own two homes, a place to live and a vacation property.

      I think the simpler and easier solution would be to increase property tax rate per property owned

      • @Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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        61 year ago

        How? Do you own your vacation property in the same city you have your house?

        Even if it was just a 30 miles radius, it would be enough to dissuade most people who own two properties in order to profit from it.

  • kase
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    81 year ago

    Can I just say, this is a wonderful template. 🐕

  • Yer Ma
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    61 year ago

    At least 20 corporate shills have seen this post