- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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I really hope they introduce a year of social service. No matter if military, police or healthcare, everyone should experience what it feels to serve society at least once.
An interesting aspect I didn’t think of so far was recently brought by German news influencer LeFloid: It adds people to the mix of police and military that wouldn’t normally be there. The far-left tend to avoid them, while the far-right embraces them. This creates a dangerous imbalance between left and right views in these structures and opens up room for radicalisation.
Terrible Idea - in Austria many young men do a 9 month long social service instead of military service and many often get treated like shit.
I’m totally against the military part. It’s just elite people deciding on the lives of people that are not in power. And when the time is right, they’ll take away your freedom of choice and mandate you to join a war. My body my rules.
You can’t have a country without a military to defend it.
That’s why people join the military voluntarily and get paid for it. My statement was only against forced military service.
Anything mandatory generally is ridiculous and counterproductive. By forcing people to do community service won’t necessarily make them better citizens either. E.g. in South Korea, a lot of people got a trauma from it because (extreme) bullying is very present there. There’s a good documentary about it.
Ukraine shows that in time of war conscription is necessary.
But indeed in peaceful and powerful countries it’s usually requested by conservative for the worst reasons possible, and I think it mostly feeds fascism. Community service is mostly the same. It’s forced labour which is akin to slavery. Conservative like those things because they want to teach obedience and respect, but they are idiots.
Still, conscription is necessary in some conditions, and I wouldn’t oppose it on principle. In France it was stopped because it was expensive and no war was in sight. Time changed and we still have atomic bombs, so in this case I guess it’s quite useless.
But then it asks the question of who the army is defending. With conservative, racists and other fascist friends making most of the police and the army I feel like it’s becoming dangerous. Maybe the army should be more representative of all people. But how can you do it without forcing people? And how do you prevent the army from being a corporation with its own interests and views otherwise?
You are confusing concepts. Conscription does not mean bullying needs to be thing. Also ultimately, wars are about numbers and the amount of soldiers(or potential solders) one has, can affect the outcome and actively prevent war.
One of the main reasons Napoleon conquered most of Europe was because he used conscription and had an army of many millions fighting against a few thousand “volunteer” professional armies of other countries.
South Korea absolutely needs conscription. Maybe you are lucky to live in a country that doesnt face a legitimate direct invasion threat. But many, most people arent that lucky.
I’m not confusing things, you’re just taking that argument out of context.
You’re also giving an outdated historic example that doesn’t make sense in the modern world where WMD are everywhere. Those numbers don’t mean anything in case those weapons play a role. Aside from that, there’s also plenty of historic examples where a smaller army won over (much) bigger one. So there’s more factors than just numbers. Location, Intel, weather, firepower, strategy, updated tech are for example other factors that play a crucial role in achieving victory. You can also have a huge number of soldiers and a very incompetent leadership, like Soviet Union showed in the beginning of WWII, which drives number of deaths drastically up. You could said higher numbers also means more disposable men.
Whether SK needs it or not is debatable. You can still encourage people to join the army or contribute to the country’s defense in other ways rather than taking away their freedom and treating them like a puppet and brainwashing them about the importance of it. All in all, a person should have full control over his own choices in life. With a globalized world (and more and more cosmopolitans), the choice to disconnect yourself from a country and move to another one and start a new life is also easier as ever. Something that also wasn’t as easy during Napoleonic time.
You’re also giving an outdated historic example that doesn’t make sense in the modern world where WMD are everywhere. Those numbers don’t mean anything in case those weapons play a role.
Most countries, including Germany, dont have WMDs or even want to have WMDs. Also WMDs are super expensive to acquire and maintain. And then you just need to keep making more and more.
And you have no escalation capability, you either nuke or you dont. So do you use a nuke if someone grabs 100sqm of your land? Especially since they can retaliate with their own nukes? Would you risk getting your entire country nuked for 100sqm?
Or what if 1000 green men just walk into your governmental buildings and occupy them. And they have guns. Do you nuke them? Do you send the police?
Aside from that, there’s also plenty of historic examples where a smaller army won over (much) bigger one.
And for every one of those examples, there are 100000 examples where the numerically superior army won. One of the main reasons that those early ukrainian breakthroughs were possible was because Russia didnt have enough soldiers. Once Russia conscripted more soldiers, they managed to stabilize the situation and build defenses.
One of the reasons Ukraine hasnt won is because instead of being given thousands of tanks and airplanes, they are given a couple dozen.
All in all, a person should have full control over his own choices in life.
So should a person also have the choice of not paying taxes? How about wearing a seatbelt while driving a car? Or wearing clothes when outside. Or wearing a mask.
Protecting your state is one of the most fundamental things you need to adopt, if you have any interest in living in it. And giving some basic education on how to use and maintain a rifle or do some basic guard duty is useful.
With a globalized world (and more and more cosmopolitans), the choice to disconnect yourself from a country and move to another one and start a new life is also easier as ever.
So your argument is “just leave lol”? Even if we ignore reality(people have houses, jobs, friends, environments, societies that they love and no money to move), what will happen if that strongman comes after to where you run? You keep running? Till you run out of space and neohitler has conquered the entire planet?
The main reason that Putin invaded Ukraine was because he thought your attitude was prevalent in the West. Conscription and helping Ukraine are 2 big signals that show to Putin that he was wrong.
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Cool idea, but in practice the left leaning weren’t serving in the military. They were usually taking the civil service route or trying to avoid both by faking disabilities.
cold war 2.0 is as shitty as the first one
forced labour is slavery
maybe folks would sign up to protect their country if they thought it deserved to be protected, or was doing anything for them
But they always do it for themselves… ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
In my country when a man turns 18, he has to choose either military service (6 months for rank and file, 9 months for specialists or 12 months for specialist drivers and NCO and officer trainees) or civil service (13 months). Third and very seldomly used option is “total denial”, which means you get to spend 6 months in an open jail.
I very reluctantly chose military service, hoping to get the shortest 6 month option. I ended up serving 12 months in the reserve officer training program, so I do have some experience on the matter.
The population of my country is so small that an army based on professional or voluntary troops is not a possibility. Conscription is the only viable choice.
The service was rarely fun, but it was very effective and extremely valuable. The personal growth I experienced during that year was immeasurable and one year of my life is a very small price to pay to this country that my grandparents’ generation paid a very heavy toll to protect. A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you. I would gladly give my life to protect mine.
I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
i am so glad that you have all of that
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
I would gladly give my life to protect mine
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
Forced labour is very different to military training, IMO. Your choices and freedom are restricted - that cannot be denied - but your days are filled with different training excersizes, not labour as I understand it. And I’ve had my fair share of that too, but by my own choice.
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
True. Your earlier statement was ambiguous concerning this. This is why I started the sentence with “if”.
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
Also true. But if I had to defend my country, the most effective way to do it would be as a part of a trained and coordinated effort, not as some loner seeking a Hollywood - style “heroic sacrifice”.
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Could you elaborate on this line of thought?
I cannot tell if you are suggesting a professional standing army or something else entirely.
