The fact that Ram drivers are a close second is hilarious. I guess there is some truth to all the jokes about Rams being driven by aggressive idiots.
Aggressive drunk* idiots. Statistically.
At least Tesla owners can blame it on the computer. 🤣
“It appears the fault was located between the drivers seat and steering wheel, sir”
Good ole close the ticket with message “PEBKAC”
What was it? 25% more likely to have a DUI record?
I think there might be something to be said here for some potential selection bias. Are Tesla drivers like ram drivers, overly aggressive idiots but with the added layer of being relatively new tech?
More boringly , maybe its selection on the circumstances too. For example maybe ev’s tend to drive more in urban environments, more urban may mean more collision opprtunities per time spent driving.
Of course ram is a farmers vehicle is desgned for rural use, so must rarely be seen in built up areas. /s
edit: having glanced at the cited article - theres no obvious mention of any risk adjustment, the measures seem to be simple ratio of crashes per driver. No obvious control for whether the sub-population spend more or less time driving.
Rate per - place-specific-risk adjusted person-hour would work better.As often with things like risk, it really helps to be able to do a multidimensional analysis. See if vehicle type/brand is significant after controlling for as many circumstantial factors and exposure related factors as you can reliably observe.
The Forbes article seems to be citing numbers that are now a few weeks out of date. They cite that Tesla drivers have 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers and Ram has 22.76. If you go to their source link you’ll see that the more recent numbers are Tesla: 31.13 and Ram: 32.90.
https://www.lendingtree.com/insurance/brand-incidents-study/
Ram in MA is 64.44 and I want these fucking things outlawed.
Read the source more carefully
Tesla drivers have the highest accident rate. From Nov. 14, 2022, through Nov. 14, 2023, Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers. Ram (22.76)
Accidents only. Worst driver counts DUIs a d fines as well.
Why does Massachusetts have such aggressive drivers? That seems like a large deviation for such a small state
It doesn’t it has a shit ton of ice and snow
Maybe in the Berkshires? The Boston area doesn’t get to much snow, and I would bet that is where most of the accidents are.
I moved here and am still asking that question myself. Only in mass do people honk if you dare to stop for a stop sign.
It’s mostly urban though. 7 million isn’t that small and it shouldn’t affect something expressed as a rate anyway.
It’s it the Ram that’s the problem, or the driver that also likes to cover the Ram in Infowars bumper stickers?
“If you can’t Dodge it, Ram it”
I see why Stellantis spun Ram into its own brand now.
I had a friend years ago with Dodge Ram van. He said, “it says Dodge in the front because that’s what you’re supposed to do when you see it coming and Ram in the back because you didn’t read the warning on the front.”
I wonder what that says about my Dodge Sprinter…
At that point is seems like a good idea to replace human drivers.
Exactly, bring in much more public transportation. It would solve so many problems.
Oh definitely! I barely drive my car these days.
Because a bunch of idiots take their hands off their steering wheel and think Elmo’s car is 100% safe.
That’s probably because Elon’s literally been trying to sell their autopilot as fully autonomous for at least 7 years now.
History of their self-driving claims
May 2016 someone dies using autopilot
November 2016 Tesla publishes video of self-driving with no hands on wheel
Class action lawsuit
More people die
They’ve been convince of it by that very man.
i know many of you all just LOVE to hate on Tesla, it’s like the shit flavor of he year for hating and no doubt Elon’s shit fuckery is partially driving it, but honestly this is an absolutely classic Forbes piece of garbage. Firstly, it’s a masterclass in selective bias - focusing solely on Tesla while barely whispering about Ram’s near-similar accident rates. Classic move to sensationalize one brand over another. Then there’s the U.S. only scope, which conveniently ignores the global context which could paint a vastly different picture. The article kicks off with a ‘non-causal’ disclaimer but then spends the rest of the time subtly linking Tesla’s Autopilot to the high accident rate, without concrete evidence. It’s a bit like saying ‘no offense’ before offending someone.
The Tesla recall is mentioned, sneakily implying a connection to the accident rate, despite the lack of direct correlation. The article is less about informing and more about crafting a narrative that fits a preconceived notion, all while skating on thin ice made of half-truths and strategic omissions.
Two things are true. The article is garbage, but so are Teslas.
They’re not, though. Elon can suck it but my Tesla is the best vehicle I’ve ever owned and it’s not even close.
I heard that you don’t even have to open the door, you just slide in through a panel gap
I love that you were downvoted, for all we know your previous vehicle was a Daewoo or something. A Tesla is likely a better quality vehicle than a Daewoo.
You sound like a forbes article
Edit for clarification. My comment was intended to a be a bit tongue in cheek and its because of this part of the top comment that i made what i thought was clearly a light hearted joke. Sorry if it wasnt so obvious
The article is less about informing and more about crafting a narrative that fits a preconceived notion, all while skating on thin ice made of half-truths and strategic omissions.
In response to the assertion of owning a Daewoo. I assumed your comment i replied to was also referencing this quote
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Wow overreaction to a joke much? But thank you for blocking me i appreciate your sacrifice
Lemmy is pretty toxic. There are 5 opinions allowed on here and your personal experience is irrelevant.
Pretty much. I’m looking through the replies I’ve received, and one says, “You sound like a forbes article” with two upvotes and only one downvote. Why would I continue to contribute to this community if that’s how people are going to act?
There’s a small center of people who are actually knowledgeable and courteous here. You just have to wade through the shit and sewage to get to it.
Yeah, and I need to get back to blocking people. The signal improved drastically when I was doing that a while back.
Are you comparing with other cars at the same price range or cheaper cars?
I don’t know but based from my experience(since you also commented based on your experience), compared to some other brands although Tesla are better than some cheaper models of other brands, some are better than Tesla if you compared to the models with the same price range
Yes, some brands might be worse, but Tesla is not quite considered as being the best
Some cheaper, some the same price range.
What’s your experience based on? Do you own one? Or is this just third-hand?
I don’t care what it’s considered. It’s the best car I’ve ever owned and I’ve owned Fords, Dodges, VWs, Toyotas, and BMWs.
but my Tesla is the best ve
Sadly, you’ll never be able to say anything nice about any Musk properties here without massive downvotes by people who wouldn’t purchase anything from Musk.
The hardware (occasional bad quality control aside) is pretty awesome. My neighbor has one, His holiday update was an absolute hoot. They’re fast, clean, comfortable and are generally long lasting, low maintenance cars.
When you factor in EV and Price, there’s nothing that stands out as nicer from a pure hardware standpoint.
They could use a few more buttons inside. When they become disabled on the road, their requirement for you to have them do the towing and taking hours to do so sucks. Suing people over selling their vehicles second hand is pretty bad. No second party repairs allowed is a problem.
The real 800 lb gorilla in the room is the autopilot. The only redeemable thing about the auto pilot is that it mostly works and it’s pushing the tech forward. They have enough money to lobby congress to make it legal, all those 730+ wrecks and *42+ deaths as horrible as they are, will lead us to the feature being viable eventually.
*edit: found a newer source
I bought mine way before Musk became a right-wing nutjob asshole and wouldn’t buy another of his cars now unless something changed with their leadership structure.
That doesn’t mean that I can retroactively say the car sucks now. It is a fantastic vehicle. I don’t use Autopilot so that part doesn’t apply (tried it during a trial and wasn’t impressed) but, as a car, I have no qualms.
Yeah, I wonder if he became one, or if he was already one and just did a better job at hiding it.
Probably a bit of both. Before the hair plugs, he probably did want to help the world. Now he just wants to help himself.
It’s like he had a really bad drug trip at some point and rewired some synapses
Ah yes a personal anecdote is 100% more valid.
That said, from what I’ve heard the big problem is the disparity of build quality. Some Tesla’s (like possibly yours) are built amazing. Some others are put together like shit.
At least I provided some kind of evidence, even if it’s an anecdote. You made a generalization with absolutely no evidence.
That’s fine if there’s a disparity but it’s not as common as your statement makes it seem.
Personal experience is not scientific or journalistic fact. As for providing evidence Google it. There’s lots of reputable sites that will tell you their build quality is inconsistent AF as well as they intentionally bully owners to accept shit.
Personal experience is still evidence. It’s not objective evidence, which normally would be a problem, but you haven’t provided any whatsoever. “Google it” doesn’t serve as a replacement for it, either.
https://lemmy.ca/comment/5795499
Also this -
Also this -
I’ll keep going if you need me to do your research for you. Not really because not my job to educate you but still.
When this was posted yesterday, I brought up issues with the sample selection (not random) and universe the “study” looked at (people using one of those sites to shop for insurance), and while I think most understood my point, some people got upset at me “defending Tesla drivers”…
Forbes is shit and I wish people would stop taking them seriously.
To be fair, Tesla / Musk spend a LOT of time talking about how they’re autonomous driving product are critical for reducing accidents and saving lives. Also, there isn’t a lot of public quantitative data around this major recall. That’s why they’re getting the headline.
Maybe autopilot is great, and it’s the non-autopilot drivers that are terrible, but right now, the brand has net accident rate that rivals a company that sells massive rolling blind spots to people who love Calvin pissing stickers.
How exactly could this study give a concrete reason for the higher than average crash rates?
Huh, so like every single article nowadays, basically.
Last time a garbage clickbait hit-piece like this pissed me off, I looked into the crash statistics myself and found Tesla vehicles were around 1/80th the average crash ratio per capita.
I’m sure this is somewhat skewed by the kinds of people driving them versus the average work vehicles and clunkers out there, but still, it just feels absurdly false to claim Teslas even approach the highest crash rate.
And even the sketchy “study” not even endorsed by the site it’s posted to, then linked by Forbes, then says Ram vehicles as the highest crash rate (lol), so it’s wild that Forbes goes on to say it’s Tesla at the top spot.
Per capita means nothing in this situation.
Comparing with the per capita means nothing here, you need to compare with other car companies, as comparing to the per capita is like comparing the number of lung cancer deaths to the number of all deaths, of course it’s going to be a very small number, but when you compare with other cancers then you can see that lung cancer is one of biggest killers amongst cancers
Thank you. This is exactly right, it’s a hit piece designed to get people who already don’t like Tesla all worked up… and it worked remarkably well.
I know its super pedantic, but the word “accident” really grinds my gears in this context.
The proper terminology is “crash”… accident infers that there is no fault or misconduct.
The official UK Police term is Road Traffic Collision, or RTC, which does not imply fault or otherwise.
What made you want to become a policeman-officer?
The mom or the sister?
This scene immediately popped into my head.
Trucking companies have switched the terms in the same way, since “accident” lightens responsibility. Even a not-at-fault crash could have been preventable often times, which is what they try to emphasize.
One of the many ways trucking companies avoid liability by putting all responsibility for fuck-ups on the driver.
You can intentionally crash into someone which would not be an accident but if you crash into someone not on purpose, then it’s an accident.
It doesn’t have to be on purpose. Accident implies that something was just a freak occurrence beyond anyone’s control. You can’t fix accidents. You can fix crashes.
If you’re driving negligently - drunk driving, not paying attention, etc then it’s not an accident.
If it’s due to bad road design, then it’s not an accident.
Wouldn’t an accident still involve “fault”
While many accidents do involve fault, there are scenarios where an accident can occur without anyone being legally at fault (mechanical failure, natural disasters). It does excludes malicious intent though. in the specific context of commercial motor vehicle regulations in the US, the term “accident” is defined in the Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (e-CFR) under 49 CFR § 390.5
Good point, so does Accidents exclude “accidental crashes with fault”
Colloquially, accidents are random events without intention or fault.
That’s why there’s a push to use neutral terms like “crash” that don’t imply that the “accident” was just a random accidental mistake.
And fault is often a bit of a misnomer. Many crashes are the result of bad design, but the courts would never say “this pedestrian fatality here is 40% the fault of whichever insane engineer put the library parking lot across a 4-lane road from the library but refused to put a crosswalk there or implement any sort of traffic calming because that would inconvenience drivers”.
Car caused trauma
Is it possible that there’s a large overlap between idiots who are bad at driving and the type of people who buy Teslas?
Yep, and the fact that a ton of people who get these cars legit think they will drive themselves…
Does this statistic account for actual sales? I wonder if there are so many accidents because there are so many. I’m not a fanboy or anything. I am just curious how this was calculated.
Lol you really think there are more tesla on the road than Toyota or Ford?
It all depends on where you live. So yea. More extensive research would be nice.
It says per 1000 drivers
Correct. But how many thousands are there? And in relation to what percentage of all Teslas compared to all other brands with similar models. Do I believe it? Absolutely. Is it a good statistic? It’s a good start.
It’s adjusted per capita. You can’t ask for better.
Does it include accidents by autopilot?
That venn diagram looks like the mid point of an eclipse
I can’t fathom any other reality.
Its like how red cars get more speeding tickets.
That’s actually a myth
I have a hard time seeing why the average person should have a zero to 60 in the sub 6 second range. People fucking suck at driving.
A coworker of mine was recently bragging about their new electric mustang and its zero to sixty time. “Have you ever gone zero to sixty?” was my only response. Of all the facts and figures, 0-60 has you to be one of the least important when buying a car.
Being able to accelerate to highway speeds quickly is useful when merge lanes are short. We have a car that kind of struggles with that, and it’s pretty scary sometimes merging into 70 mph traffic. Normally it’s not a major issue, but one ramp we sometimes use is designed poorly - it’s curvy, so you can’t accelerate to highway speed until after the final curve, then it’s up a hill, and of course there’s a short merge area into traffic that’s usually doing about 70 mph. So, there, I REALLY miss the power our previous car had. It’s a frustrating experience.
When I got my license back in the early 2000s I got taught very economical driving, generally choosing gears to keep rpm low, use the motor brake to decelerate before traffic lights, such stuff. Then it was time to get on the Autobahn, and the instructor just said “Forget everything I taught you, now it’s safety first: Floor it in 3rd gear, merge in third gear, once you’ve found your position switch directly to 5th you’ll be fast enough.”
If I’m not mistaken that was an Audi A4 TDI so… 15 seconds 0 to 100? Maybe about 10, don’t remember the displacement. Of course, merging is more like 30 to 120, directly onto the second lane. With a Punto you’re kinda lucky if you get to 80 by the time the on-ramp ends and barely get into the right-most lane (where you’re probably staying).
Rolling to 75 is more relevant in MA where onramps to highways are 50 feet long, but 0 to 60 is correlated.
But Tesla always says the opposite.
regulators who don’t trust FSD are KILLING people because it’s so safe -Elron
People are allowed cars they don’t have skills to use.
Quite frankly, driving skills standards in the entire American continent are a joke to begin with. I’ve seen current requirements in Canada (“Wut?” bad), united states (teehehehehe bad) and Mexico (the aristocrats joke bad) and I know going south it only gets worse.
I got my driver’s license 25 years ago in the Netherlands and had to take classes for a number of months, learn an entire book of rules, had a one bour theory exam where typically only 60-70% would pass at the first try, then I had to take 30 hours of practical lessons with an instructor in a special car, and take a practical exam with an examiner where the rulr is pretty much “one mistake and you’re out”. I learned how to drive in rain, what to look out for, hoe to drive in show, how to manage losing control of your car, etc etc etc… I was instilled with andeaddaly respect for what s car is and what it can do in seconds to ruin lives for good.
Comparing that ti anything they teach today in the Americas, it’s just a sad joke.
My drivers ed class in new england pretty much focused only on educating teenagers about how brutally dangerous drunk driving is. It was frustrating at the time because I felt like I didn’t even learn how to drive but given how where I grew up as a teenager you had to go drink in sketch places which usually involved driving (what a dumb way to structure society ughh) because of the car hellscape I grew up in…. I honestly think those drivers ed teachers spent their time well.
Driving a car isn’t so hard so long as you take the perspective that you have one rule, don’t hit other people and always remind yourself that you can’t assume other drivers will do anything they should on the road. Drunk driving was VERY hard not to do as a bored teenager trying to hang out with other bored teenagers. I could have died, my friends could have died. Idk, so I can’t be too upset at my drivers ed class in retrospect.
In Canada we still have to pass a practical test that covers that stuff with pretty strict requirements for passing. Just how you gain the knowledge and ability to pass that test is up to you. It’s pretty normal to take a driver’s Ed class if your friends or family don’t have time to trach you themselves. And the drivers Ed class is what you described as what is mandatory in the Netherlands. We just don’t put people through it automatically if they have already learned all that somewhere else.
Having said that, there are some small towns that are known as places to go if you want an easier driving test, as they just don’t have enough things around to properly represent everything you should know while driving. But if it turns out you do actually suck at driving, you’ll lose your tiny amount of demerits on your beginners license pretty fast and then you are legally required to pass a driver’s Ed and defensive driving class before being able to reclaim your license. It’s not perfect, and I do think the one major thing we are missing is periodic re-testing. In Canada people are a little less resistant to “greater good” social policies, but there is still resistance. It’s tough to pass stuff that lowers or is perceived to lower freedoms, but they do still occasionally pass.
And as I’m sure is the problem everywhere, people want all kinds of services, they just don’t want the government to have the money to pay for those services. And also they only want the services they personally currently benefit from, everything else can be cut until they personally need it, then it was a tragedy that no one stood up for it.
That doesn’t sound all that different from where I learned in Maryland. You had to go to a class for a few months that had both theoretical and practical portions. You had to do 40 hours of supervised driving outside of class with an adult. The 40 hours covered a range of situations. Then there was a driving test. Which I passed fine for the car but failed for a motorcycle because I started about a foot back from the stop sign on the course so I didn’t pull up and stop at it. Doh.
Adult being a friend or family member? I’ve heard about that, and it always struck me as strange, as people aren’t driving instructors, driving instructors are driving instructors.
In California, the first 20hr or so, it had to be a licensed instructor if you were under 18. An adult would just need to register for a learner’s permit and just need any licensed driver in the front passenger seat
I think it was somewhere around 6 to 10 hours with a certified instructor. The 40 with an adult was yeah a family member or friend. The quality definitely depended on the adult. My parents took it seriously and made sure we completed the lessons, but I had friends whose parents just signed the form without providing the additional instruction. It was 20 years ago so details are fuzzy.
I blame the touchscreen first ideology. Give em some physical buttons that you can feel without taking your eyes off the road.
That and the sheer power can make accidents happen faster than you can react.
I don’t understand how using a cell phone while driving is a violation in most places, but using a touchscreen as the dashboard is is just fine. Whaaaa …?
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This is a very good point. The more a person is forced to take their eyes off the road, the less safe they become as a driver.
I hear VW is putting buttons back in.
I’m not looking forward to the day a tesla cyber truck hits someone. That’s gonna be a grisly scene in the right conditions.
Our latest analysis uses QuoteWizard by LendingTree insurance quote data to determine which car brands have the worst drivers.
Wonder how many drivers of each brand they actually have, that would very much sway the numbers if they have smaller numbers of some brands insured.
This sounds like less of a “study” and more of a top ten list for page views.
Yeah, their “safest” list top 3 were all dead marques; Mercury, Pontiac, and Saturn. They definitely have some sampling issues.
The right source for this kind of stuff is the NHTSA’s database, but you can’t manufacture juicy headlines from that.
Maybe they’re sentient and actively suicidal.
This reminds me of a cheesy Dutch movie from the 80s called The Lift in which an elevator becomes self aware and starts murdering people…
It would be a brilliant way to knock people off.
Terra Ignota used carefully calculated automobile tragedies as a pretext for civil war.
A plane crash was used as the pretext for the civil war/genocide in Rwanda
Maybe they’re sentient and actively *revolutionary
And doesn’t his newest atrocity, long overdue and underdelivered/overpriced, also have a front end like a knife?
I am both shocked and pleased that Ford did not make this list. Seriously, the brand with the most sold pickup truck doesn’t make a list for just about everything?
I’d bet a significant chunk of the F150’s sold every year go to fleet operators which would skew the saftey numbers.
And fleet operators have stricter requirements. Get in an accident? They want a piss test on the spot, and if you refuse you’re done.
And fleet operators have stricter requirements.
Including requiring regular driver training refresher courses.
My guess it’s kind of like when you get solar panels and you’re tied to the grid you feel a little better about using electricity willy-nilly, and so you use more electricity with solar panels than without.
I’m willing to bet that Tesla drivers were told that this vehicle will prevent them from getting an accident and so they are driving worse because they feel like they don’t have to be as on guard as they do behind a non Tesla vehicle.
Could also be things like fast acceleration pulling the numbers up. A lot of people are going to gun it if you give them something that can do 0-60 under 4 seconds. Those are numbers that were relegated to expensive sports cars a decade ago, not a grocery getter.
