i wonder if this is correlated with the loneliness increase / the loneliness gap. if you’re a guy, lonely, prone to depression, in a crumbling post-capitalist society that’s getting more malignant by the day…how much will to live can you have
Nah, the older men I know either won’t go to a doctor because they didn’t need them when they were younger, are scared of them, can man up through whatever pain they have, whatever. These are folks with Medicare, so at least access to doctors. These are all married men with kids. They don’t go until they’re literally forced to and by then, it’s already too late and they just die.
I won’t go to a doctor because my experience with doctors is they tell me I’m imagining it, refuse to order any tests, then send me a bill for hundreds of dollars for the privilege of hearing them gaslight me about my symptoms.
I won’t open up emotionally to people for similar reasons: experience of it going wrong.
Sounds all too familiar. I blame the pain pendulum swinging too far the other way. Doctors do a he’ll of a lot more then manage pain… but to a patient pain is usually the number one reason they are in front of the doctor. When the doctor will not even write the smallest script to alleviate their pain, or even worse accuses them of being a drug seeker either directly or with their indirect language (that we can all read through) men tend to give up. If you can’t even help me with the easiest part, or are going to become adversarial about it then what’s the point of going to the doctor? Obviously that question is rhetorical…
They really need to loosen their grip on low level pain meds and really start diverting people into pain management programs when necessary. This opioid backlash has only hurt the general public. Pain doesn’t just disappear if you don’t treat it, this just leads more people into buying diverted scripts, becoming their own doctor and then eventually using fentanyl pills or just “heroin”.
I’d rather die than ever see the medical bill.
deleted by creator
quick question, how is this any different for women?
Men and women seem to make friends differently. Men have more of a tendency to make friends through work. The change in work culture can cause these to collapse more easily. It’s particularly harsh at retirement. They not only lose their day-to-day reason to go on, but the friendship net that should help them.
By comparison, women tend to make friends independently of work. This makes their friendships more tolerant to changing jobs, or leaving work. Women also seem to be better at maintaining friendships at a distance.
Lastly, there is the (slightly controversial) glass floor. It’s the inverse of the glass ceiling. Both men and women have a bias to help women in distress over men. This makes it a lot more likely that someone will step in to help, before the downward spiral gets too deep. This is partially why men make up a large proportion of the homeless.
I’m pretty surprised by the friend-making info you shared. Do you have a source? I’d like to read more.
In terms of making friend stats I don’t know of any study’s but I do find it extremely believable from my life. My dad is probably the only man I know of to have a friend group and even then it’s just him and one other guy. Meanwhile I walk around and see women walking around exclusively in groups. I suppose it really doesn’t help that in the place I’m from socializing with coworkers is considered lazy and generally shushed.
It isn’t. When you look at studies they reveal that loneliness is very prevalent in multiple groups of people and in general. In some studies older women are the most lonely group.
Gender and Age Differences in Loneliness: Evidence for People without and with Disabilities
There is much activity by anti-feminists in particular to push the narrative that men are the most lonely group and that of course the reason are women. This is heavily pushed by media because people seemingly like that idea more than that gender stereotypes targeting men are potentially more at fault.
I mean, gender stereotypes still tend to be sourced by a person. It makes sense the most stretched stereotypes would come from people that don’t actually fall into the demographic themselves. You wouldn’t hear Mexicans claim “Oy mijo, we are all so lazy!”
deleted by creator
To live? Not much. To riot? Plenty.
This is the energy I wish everyone carried.
The loneliest group is older women, btw. Not that anyone cares, though…
Women are better at expressing that are lonely. From what I understand it’s unclear who is more lonely because men don’t admit to being lonely. It’s probably more important to not argue about and just be aware that old people are often very lonely.
I agree. But I think to increase life expectancy in men it’s important to look into the diverse causes instead of letting the discussion being guided by anti-feminists who really do not seem to put men’s health and happiness first but rather their ideology.
Harping on one potentially non-deciding factor and leaving those factors that are known to be important behind because they don’t fit their ideology is not helping men.
Yep and going around arguing that women are more lonely doesn’t add much to the discussion IMO. It’s not a competition and the output of dying younger is the primary fact we know about gender health differences.
It is a complicated discussion with a lot more inputs than just loneliness though. The anti feminist angle is kind of strange, never thought much of it.
Doubt
I want to kill myself because I hate myself, not because of capitalism. This kind of doomer shit doesn’t fucking help anyone. The absolute hopeless outlook of people on social media is pathological at this point.
You’re all loved. You’re valid. We’re not gonna let anyone murder you en masse. Things will get better. It might be slower than we’d like at times, but nobody has been able to stop progress yet.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such. Gain some empathy.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No. They fought against the standards of the time, and they had support from other groups. They didn’t have that support just because of their genetics, but also because other people had some goddamned empathy. We need to move past the “fuck you, I got mine” as a society if we EVER want things to be good overall. Nothing really excludes you from doing that, at least not if you actually care about others. I don’t even really care if someone has a damned disco ball down there, it’s horrible that people feel the NEED to live in a way that cuts their life short.
If you hear that a large group of people is dying young, the correct response is to figure out why, and solve it. The correct response is not to turn it into a competition or to blame the people who died so young. The correct response is to try to find a solution, and to possibly literally save lives. You are a bad person if you are happily ok with this going on. If you hate half of the population so badly that you don’t care about their death, you have no business telling that population how to live or how to be happy.
It’s tragic really. Imo, this is yet another situation where tradition and societal pressures kill people. Don’t be miserable to try to make dead people happy. Dead people who cared so little, that they didn’t put anything in place to help you in the future. Dead people who only cared about what they personally experienced during their time on earth. Dead people who had a very large hand in causing most of the pain that these people are feeling today.
Dudes reading this, I know it might be difficult depending on where you are, but please check up on your friends. Don’t tease them when they open up about serious things, and please listen to them talking about things they love. Change starts with you, and it starts with me. We can make a new future, and we don’t have to keep trying to please the people who will never see it.
Try to not be too hard on yourself, you’re probably doing the best that you can. Your best might “look like” 20% one day, and 80% the next, but it will still be YOUR 100%. You are only human, and no one is perfect. Please keep up the hobbies that you love, and always look towards better and brighter things. Some days that might be looking forwards to Friday, and other days that might be discovering a new passion. Love unconditionally, and build yourself and others up relentlessly. The odds that you specifically exist are so miniscule that it could almost be considered a miracle.
Even if it might not feel like it today, you are important. You have value. No one else out there has your exact combination of attributes, and only you can fill that role. Even if you’re in your 50’s, you can still pursue your passions and dreams. Many of the people who poop on your ambitions are people who regret not fulfilling their own. Don’t listen to angry people for live advice, as their methods are the best way to stay angry.
Please keep doing your best, and best wishes to y’all. It’s tough out there and I can’t imagine how tough it would feel to go at it alone. Strive for a better tomorrow, and never give up. Giving up is the only way to guarantee that this continues.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Tbh I only mentioned it because I saw other comments trying to turn the post into yet another game “who has it worse” or “who can we blame so we don’t have to put any effort into fixing it”.
I also saw some toxic comments stating that men should just pull themselves out of it. I brought up the rights situation because it was another scenario that required more than just one group of people to make any proper change. We’ve done it before, why not again?
Expecting a group that is already struggling with life to suddenly magic themselves better is unrealistic at best. So, I tried to remind people that working together would be better.
You’re fine, it was overly verbose for my taste/consumption, but informative. When I see that much verbosity I’m suspect that it’s actually just a ChatGPT-type generated text/comment.
To the point, I was just friendly teasing, by emphasizing via italics, the fact that you were talking about something that shouldn’t be done, and then actually doing the thing you said you shouldn’t be doing, all in the same comment.
It’s all good! I wanted to make sure that I clarified just in case
Fair enough. Sincerely, no insult was meant (unless you really were using ChatGPT, then in that case “fuck you!” >:p ).
What’s your point?
or to try to force the topic to change to something else.
Seems like this is the point. No double standards.
or to try to force the topic to change to something else.
Seems like this is the point. No double standards.
Or more like saying we shouldn’t do this and then doing what you’re saying you shouldn’t be doing.
I would have thought the emphasis by italicizing would have been enough to make my point. Apparently it wasn’t.
What’s yours?
I am trying to understand what you meant to say, since it was not clear.
Check the parts I italicized, they’re emphasized to make my point.
Competition? What do women have to do with this? Who is happily ok with this going on? Who are you talking to?
There are a decent number of people just in these comments that are willing to just dismiss this as ‘toxic masculinity’ and move on. They think toxic masculinity is something entirely created and maintained by men. It is not. Many men have stories of women holding them to toxic masculine standards.
is this supposed to be an announcement to them?
It is an explanation of the misconception many people are under and why it is a misconception.
It is commentary that makes no assumptions of the person reading it.
It is an assumption of your first sentence is true. It’s even going into prediction.
What part is either assumption or prediction? Just read the comments.
deleted by creator
He didn’t write anything against that.
deleted by creator
That’s fine. My job as a man is to die first. Is that toxic masculinity? Yes. Is it stupid? Also yes. But I’d rather die on my lawnmower than acknowledge feelings. I will go out 6 years early like a man.
I will work 12hr days and sacrifice my health for my family. Toxic maybe, but my duty as a man.
I’ll eat that 12oz sirloin and wash it down with beer and whiskey every night. Just so someone doesn’t call me gay. Doesn’t matter how many dudes I fuck in the ass!
Get that umbrella away from me faaaag.
deleted by creator
Wow
You know I really question how many children are gonna grow up in the world basically fatherless, or with an absent father, because there’s this idea that the man has to be the one sacking everything they have in order to “put food on the table”. Gone for most of the day, devoid of energy when they come home, meat on the chopping block. I wonder how many kids would pick a better house, brand name foods, more toys, over more time spent with their dad.
Ironic that the thread is about men dying on average younger than women, and the majority of the responses are people completely ignoring that fact and instead just taking an opportunity to negatively stereotype men so they can shit on them collectively.
Are we in the same thread? Feel like I’m missing that going on
Pshew - look at that pendulum swing…
Men typically die younger than women across the world. Men tend to be higher risk takers and tend to be less social due to toxic masculinity. The strength of your social network is a huge factor in anyone’s lifespan/quality of life. Then in the west you have the “manosphere” (Joe Rorgan, Andrew Tate etc.) as a very popular men’s place for socializing, which is isolating in it’s own right and drives things that are, once again, already predominant traits in men like going to see doctors less and listening to their advice less.
These are the things I’m seeing brought up and they’re all real known phenomenon. Where’s the lie?
"Men die earlier because of toxic masculinity "
That is victim blaming, plain and simple.
Apply your logic to rape and women wearing revealing clothing and then tell me that your statement isn’t disgraceful and sickening.
Learn how to read and understand logic dude. Oh and cope harder.
Removed by mod
Here’s what you get for listening to joe rogan for medical advice lol
Edit: for those calling out missandry, the article and I are talking about american men. You’re not the center pf the universe…
It’s telling that your first reaction is to joke about the issue. Imagine someone talking about wage gaps and people making a joke about women.
I mean I always enjoy humor about dark subjects personally, doesn’t matter the topic. Maybe that’s just the autism working tho
if it was about wage gaps and the joke was about women people would call it mysogyny not “dark humor” so it’s not unreasonable to take his comment as misandrist.
deleted by creator
That’s what they get for sacrificing their educations and careers to have children.
You cant say with certainty that that is the cause because there are many other numerous factors that can cause this
joe rogan is an idiot though
I’m being facetious, it’s clearly a complexe issue
Obvious joke is obvious lol
Does this mean that I can also make jokes about the massive gaps in other situations against women?
There are way more male than female politicians: Maybe if you stop bickering about emotional bullshit you’d be liked and voted for.
There are way more men than women in the tech sector: I mean hey women know how to make a good dish and men know how to code a good porn site.
There are more men holding executive positions in public companies: Listen, that’s on you if your work goes to shit for a week every month.
I could go on but you get the idea. Is that OK?
It’s punching down. You can make jokes like that and nobody is going to punish you for it but they will think you’re a jackass.
That’s a convenient excuse to be an asshole to half the population while running interference for the other.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander
Makes sense I guess but it still feels unfair. Like people can make jokes about men who are suicidal and overdosing but you can’t make jokes about women’s stereotypes?
To me it should be one or the other
1- You can make whatever jokes about any protected class or minority
2- You can’t ever make jokes at the expense of a protected class regardless of how privileged they are
No one is stopping you from doing either one. OHHHH you just don’t want the consequences. It’s Not about personal responsibility or choice. I see now.
I’m saying this about myself bro what the fuck are you talking about? I’m saying other people should follow one or the other.
No lie you sound like ChatGPT 0.1 trained on tumblr lmao.
I mean I would definitely consider it in poor taste if a woman started making tone deaf jokes about male suicide rates. You get a lot more leeway when making fun of a group you are a part of. You combine that with the general assumption that everyone on the internet is male until proven otherwise, and yeah in this kind of forum it’s much more acceptable to make jokes at the expense of men than women.
There’s also a bit of a disparity in the examples you gave. The idea that men die earlier because they take medical advice from Joe Rogan is obviously not made in sincerity. The overwhelming majority of men have never listened to Joe Rogan and besides a few high profile examples I don’t think he actually gives that much medical advice. Though it would be harmful if people genuinely believed this was true, it doesn’t seem likely that anyone would.
On the other hand, Women being worse workers due to emotions or their periods or whatever is something a lot of people genuinely believe. In some circles those statements wouldn’t be considered jokes but rather serious opinions. Repeating those things, even if you don’t personally believe then, reinforces the ideas and is clearly harmful to women.
A similarly offensive “joke” at men’s expense would be something like “men die earlier because they’re too stupid to see a doctor”. This would be a bad joke, because it’s taking something which is basically true, men don’t see doctors as frequently, and tying it to a real and harmful stereotype, men are dumber than women.
You’re right, the OP wasn’t serious. But same as with misogynistic jokes, a lot of people could believe the Joe Rogan thing. I mean he does like carnivore diets, he puts vaccine skeptic people on his show, he took Ivermectin, and there is likely some other dumb shit he spews that would be harmful. I could easily see someone believing that he was a part of if not a big cause of male deaths in during the pandemic if you’ve not read the article.
The examples I gave were intentionally bad to show the difference in reaction in this community. But TBH, I see now that the reaction is not as one sided as I saw in the first place. Still fucked up though.
If that’s what you think a joke is maybe give up on trying for a comedy career.
No, it’s not okay. My parents didn’t have me to be your f*cking ‘Chef.’ Learn to cook a decent meal for yourself a**hole.
deleted by creator
Has anybody considered that maybe we don’t want to live longer?
My entire life, I feel like my only value as a person has been to provide financial benefit to others. There is no passion. There is only obligation.
I’ve met those obligations. Those obligations required a whole lot of struggle and doing whatever was necessary with no regard to my physical or mental well-being. If at any time I tried to take pause and do something for myself, I was considered loathsome and…favorite zeitgeist buzzword, toxic. Only when I returned to giving all of myself to others was there any tolerance of my existence.
Now in my fifties, I’m tired. I don’t mean I’m I need a nap tired. I mean it at an existential level.
I refuse to spend my remaining years in doctors offices as they systemically extract every remaining dollar I’ve got while telling me I’m a terrible person for not living a perfectly physical life. I’ll choose the early exit and a nice clean estate to leave to my daughter.
When my time comes, I will go quietly into that cold dark void, and I will do so enthusiastically. I see no value in prolonging the inevitable merely for the benefit of others. Let me have this one small thing
I’m so sorry to read this. It must be ok to do stuff for yourself, anybody that tells you no is the one being toxic. As they say in fight club, you are not defined by your job. Especially in this time of AI and extreme automation, we must normalise that not having a job, or not living for your job, doesn’t mean you are worthless. This is valid for women as well, btw.
It sounds like you have personal issues that go beyond aging
It’s not personal issues, it’s patriarchal issues. Just about every guy I know past a certain age, myself included, feel the burn from this. You are expected to just give give give and anytime you have needs, including some damn rest, you are looked down on for it and marginalized. You don’t see how much of a dog shit deal this is until you burn out.
If you don’t have a reason to keep on living, you have to make one. Set your direction. You don’t have to live just to provide for others.
If you don’t have a reason to keep on living, you have to make one. Set your direction. You don’t have to live just to provide for others.
It’s like you didn’t read what he said. You can do exactly that, set your own reason and start expressing yourself as you feel. The problem is that you are looked down on for it and marginalized. One of my best friends is gay, and he works in sales. He has to conceal much of himself to get by, and even in situations where he’s comfortable discussing his orientation, even amongst his own circles the issue of talking about your feelings is still difficult for people to accept.
If it’s an issue for gay people, imagine how fucked it is for straight people. Your comment comes off as if you clicked reply on the wrong thing.
I get that it isn’t simple or easy. There are parts of myself that I hide in public too, things that shouldn’t matter but for some reason do.
But if people are demanding that you give and give and give until there is nothing left, you owe it to yourself to either tell them to get fucked or find a way to get them out of your life. Easier said than done, I know, but it is the only way you will be free of that bullshit.
you are looked down on for it and marginalized
You just said and exact quote
you owe it to yourself to either tell them to get fucked or find a way to get them out of your life.
When that list includes your own mother, father, siblings, supervisor at work, and SO, I think your advice is tantamount to amputating a limb because of the discomfort it experiences in life, as opposed to recognizing the issue. I’m taking what you’re saying as aloof to the very subject matter here, and hence the subject we’re discussing here in the first place. The idea of telling your loved ones to get fucked and get them out of your life is in line with the issue of suicide, depression, and anxiety.
The depression from where you just became lonelier, and the suicide as many people see it as an “out”. You may as well just say, go kill yourself if you don’t like this world…and then we’re back to square one again.
Either way, have a nice downvote for your terrible attitude. I hope you have something better to say than the old “toughen up” advice that constitutes what makes this fucked.
If I sound aloof then I am sorry. But I have had to make similar choices. Saying goodbye to shit people can be truly difficult, but it’s either that or endure their shit if they won’t listen to you.
I am not saying to wallow in loneliness. You will need to find non-shit people to make a friend network, even just a small one.
It is a lot of effort and even the prospect is scary as fuck…but living a life enduring an untenable burden will never be better.
Sometimes life gives us impossible choices. Like upend everything or live in misery.
Bud, we hide this shit because the punishment for not doing so is worse than whatever we gain from not hiding it, we wouldnt have started hiding it if it weren’t
I have autism. I know far more about that than you’d think.
May I suggest revenge? Great reason. Also nazi hunting is pretty sweet. Take a few of the bastards with you.
Seems like you are in a tight spot. It must be immensely hard for you to feel the burden of “having to give” while it seems that nobody really cares about your well-being and gives back. I’m really sorry for you. It’s obvious that you’re far from happy about that. That’s only natural. I bet most people would feel the same if they were in your spot. And yet, it really sucks that no one around you seems to see.
I can understand that you got exhausted by all of this and don’t want to continue living like that any longer than you need to.I hope I don’t cross any line, whith the following. My apologies if that happens. Please feel free to ignore this completely if you’d rather not talk more about this.
Would you like to change your situation if it were possible somehow?
You said that you were misunderstood as “loathsome” and “toxic” when you tried to care for yourself. If it’s okay for you to tell us more about your situation: How did that happen?
Oh good. Another article about men struggling with X. This certainly means that help is coming, right? Right guys?
The help: “Remember guys, it’s okay to not be plagued by X”
It’s ok to be weak without support structures, you’ll be fine. It’s ok to not have friends, making friends is hard, 15% of the male population having no close friends is something you can work past, you’ll be fine. It’s ok to have mental health problems, despite there not being any help or support for them, it’s ok to let them take over your life from time to time, lonely men’s bills pay themselves, right?
But you’re men, you’re meant to be strong, and stoic, and nothing is meant to phase you emotionally. You’re allowed to cry, just don’t be pathetic looking when you do it. Cry like a fucking man.
Another article you don’t want to mention to someone else on account of being shamed for acknowledging men have problems at all 😃
It’s not phrased as how this is actually a women’s issue, so no.
I wish the men in my life would visit a doctor, get an annual check up, and take more preventative measures protecting their health.
Sounds expensive
Only in the US.
oh.
Other countries pay for it in high taxes. You pay for it somehow.
Edit:
Every tiny bit of interaction with the medical system in the US costs a multitude of what the same interaction costs in other countries.
There’s a reason why “international medical insurance” for say European travelers excludes the US by default. And if it includes US, it costs 4-10 times as much.
We have the tax money already in the US, we just dump most of it into the MI complex.
Probably
You pay more for it in the US anyway, and don’t necessarily have anything to show for it.
It’s just lose/lose for the US people.
We pay plenty in taxes to cover healthcare already. It’s just wasted on a bloated military budget. That and lobbyists prevent any changes that would negatively impact the healthcare industry’s bottom line.
You’re right, I pay 5-10x as much out of my income 😀
I’m blessed to have good health/dental insurance and I guarantee you I make sure I get my money’s worth from it. I get my annual physicals, my required pokings and proddings, etc.
Maybe you should talk to them first instead of wishing for them to pay for help not involving you.
You’re victim blaming
It’s a lot cheaper for women to act like adults and stop treating them like utter dog shit.
You wanna throw in blaming immigrants too? It’s right there, easy pickings. C’mon, you know you want to.
So I’ll be honest and say I have no want to prolong my life any longer than I absolutely have to. I have a myriad of mental issues, no plans to start or have a family and in general very little want to live another 50ish years.
I think that’s not uncommon in a lot of men either. There’s very little incentive to make it that long anymore. I’ll be working till the day I die and some poor choices in my life up to this point have put a significant damper on what’s left.
no plans to start or have a family
Do you want to start/have a family? Society seems to pressure people into the mindset of wanting to “start a family”, but many people don’t actually want to, and that’s fine too.
Nope, and while that’s a fine choice to make, it still leaves me pretty much alone for the remainder of my life.
I don’t like making friends, nor am I good at it, and whenever I do manage to make one it fades away extremely fast no matter the effort I put in. Which makes it very clear it’s a me problem, so I just stopped trying.
Are you getting help?
I’m guessing no, since that would defeat the entire point of what they just said. I can relate to this.
I did for a while. It never eased the existential dread of existing another day, so I eventually stopped once my therapist and I agreed that I could be a functioning member of society.
Talking about things doesn’t really do much for me. I’m extremely self-aware of why I am the way that I am, and it’s something I’ve come to peace with. I’m not necessarily unhappy, just content with living a very, very uneventful and short life.
I see. So if there was a possibility to improve that, would you be willing to take it or are you fine as it is?
That’s weird. Well, I’m gonna go catch a speeding bullet with my teeth, wish me luck!
Good luck, we’re all counting on you.
It feels like if the issue involves men it is not considered important. Boys struggle in school more now but only girls get attention, young men die to violence more, middle aged men die to suicide more, etc.
As a man, I’m okay with this. Take care of others, first. I have been afforded a myriad of privileges simply because my genitals are external. We could do with less men, honestly. I know a lot of misogynistic assholes and the world would have been better if they’d been aborted or castrated.
Go fuck yourself. You’re part of the problem
We really do not need to be that rude …
They aren’t wrong though. UnknownHandsome’s views are truly abhorrent.
Yeah but you do not converse with insulting somebody. If you want someone to change opinions maybe be a bit nice
Correct thing to do is treat everyone equally, not to change the unfair advantage into a disadvantage. Thats not equality.
Take care of everyone.
Sounds like you have some problems to work out
gr8 b8 m8
“There’s been a lot of research into the decline in life expectancy in recent years, but no one has systematically analyzed why the gap between men and women has been widening since 2010,”
Since 2010, what happened in 2010? Was that when they started prescribing oxy willy nilly, maybe. I think women took as much though, why would bring down the life expectancy just for men.
Really? In a country where there is a resturante that is called “heartattack” and a healtcare system that is called “unamerican”? I can’t fathom how this is possible.
One of the factors where feminists don’t insist on equality…
I’m pretty sure feminists are in favour of increasing the health and life quality of all people.
deleted by creator
You seem like a very angry person. You should probably stop calling people ‘tards’ and ‘pussies’ while you advocate for for mental health and against sexism but I would first work on that near homicidal rage you seem to be harboring.
deleted by creator
