I heard that back in the days, people used to just go when their work was done on the farms and there was no concept of 9-5 (these days seem 24 hours work). There used to be a lot of holidays. Is that true? If it is, then given the abundance in technology, why our work hours increased and why do we have such weird lives that we live to work?
Companies need to make line go up. You could increase productivity by using more tech (computers, tools, etc), but you can also do it by working longer. So the people in charge said “why not both?!” And here we are.
I feel like some of it also is “work until you’re done” still. Hourly jobs pay per hour. But salary jobs typically pay you for work accomplishments, not time. Unfortunately I feel like a lot of tech improvements and processes have oversold their productivity improvements… example: AI will make you go code 10x as fast! So managers hear that (typically upper management, not middle/lower management who actually see it) and thus expect people to instantly do 10x the work. So you now have to bust your ass off working longer hours to meet that expectation. Good middle management will push back and reset expectations, but often the damage is done when they can half their work force with the assumption that they’re going to be so much more productive now that this new magical tool is in place.
The corporate culture is also quite insane and dehumanizing. This motivates me to be poor than to earn these fellows.
A group of about 30 middle managers pushed back on policies and processes that were killing the business, hurting employee moral and eroding customer confidence. They were told “no and that they were the problem and needed to do better”. Next meeting was, hey look at this new AI chatbot that will make everything much faster, like AI is going to fix everything.
I feel like looking at work at merely profit maximization is missing a big part of the picture.
There’s a big part of it that’s social positioning within an organization. I’ve worked more than a few jobs that could have been part time or been eliminated entirely, thereby saving the company money, but there is social value of being a manager that employs +1 people, so those jobs stayed.
There is a massive amount of weirdness going on at companies that is entirely unrelated to the balance sheet and wouldn’t be out of a place in a Byzantine Court.
A lot of it is cultural. Capitalism continues to exploit people not just because of the machinations of a few people at the top, but also because there are many people who have so deeply internalised the logic of capitalism that they are reinforce and perpetuate their own oppression.
A phrase that I’ve found really useful in understanding this is “cultural hegemony”. This theory was originally developed in the early 1900s by the Marxist philosopher, Antonio Gramsci. It’s a pretty dense bit of political theory that I don’t feel like I understand well enough to explain well, but I’ll attempt to give the gist of it
The key thing about cultural hegemony is that it makes the dominant political ideology seem like it’s natural and inevitable. We see this when people recognise the awfulness of their working or living conditions, but then shrug it off by saying “that’s just life”. They can’t imagine any alternative. I see it a lot in my daily life when people see the crafts I make and say “wow, that’s so good, you should sell those” — people are conditioned to only see value in terms of monetary value.
To sum up hegemony, the latent ideas of society, or “common sense,” is ruling class ideology. Ideology is presented and maintained through bourgeois intellectuals, such as the education system, media, etc. Gramsci’s counter is the development of a proletarian party, which creates proletarian intellectuals that can disseminate proletarian ideology, Marxism-Leninism (Gramsci was ML).
To expand, the greater idea is that we are all philosophers, whether we understand our own philosophy, or world outlook, or not. Common sense is a world outlook, and living in capitalism without consciously understanding that how we live in it shapes what we actually believe leads to upholding capitalism. This is the importance of dialectical materialism, it eliminates the bourgeois-friendly idealism and mechanical materialism that plague modern thought, and logically leads to proletarian emancipation.
I am South Asian and that “that’s just life or fate” attitude is common where I live.
I’m so glad I work at a place where there are no late night calls, no overtime, and no time tracking. It’s all about the results you bring to the table while you’re working.
Yeah, but the trade off was that you were bound to the land and social hierarchy was much more rigidly enforced. Your pay was mostly in food and accommodations unless you were in a trade, nobility, or the clergy.
Why do people work more? Because in an industrial setting, the methods of compensation and employer responsibilities are vastly different. Employers are incentivized to treat labor as any other good and will try to lower that cost where possible. In contrast, if you’re a form of bondage, your employer is more likely to treat you like capital.
what is the bondage example?
Various forms of serfdom.
After I hit 40 hours I’m gone. I acknowledge there is a certain amount of privlege required to do that. It took me 20 years to get to that point but Im proud of it and I wanted to brag.
Back then all you had was the clothes on your back an half a sack of grain at the store. There’s more free time if you don’t produce anything.
And an onion tied to your belt, which was the fashion at the time
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I’m with ain’t it and what it is scares me.
It will happen to you too.
Because we have always worked to live, living isn’t easy or cheap, but there’s also no reason to make it any harder than it has to be, well except to keep those with more in power. The farm was literally 24hrs of work. When you went home, which was still on the farm, was because you couldn’t see anymore because the sun went down or because you were too tired to keep going. Summer break from school was created so that kids and teachers could work the farms during summer.
No matter what your boss says, you are only required to work the hours that you’re contractually obligated to work. Your boss and peers might not like you very much and maybe resent you for it, but that’s your call to make. When you start a job you are signing a contract, it can be as simple as a single sentence or a full on novel. You and they are only required to fulfill the minimum requirements of the contract.
There’s more time off today and 8hr work days because of unions and farm life sucks, it’s straightforward and simple but it still sucks. Before unions there were no paid holidays, only the rich got time off.
Seems like someone is feeding you propaganda and glorifying the bad old days. It’s not great now but it beats what it was 100 years ago, which is not that far away.
Those are true, it’s the shift to capitalism. Before excess wealth could be gained through colonization. Once that was done it became about squeezing out as much as you can from your workers. However the good businessman would have squeezed everything they could out of their workers while colonizing. (Like the US in the Middle East since WW2 or more recently Venezuela)
I would suspect entropy. Second Law of Thermodynamics states that total disorder is always increasing over time.
Because we’re Germans, not Italians
I am neither. I am from Asia.
OMG, Asians = Germans on steroids.
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Because living is more expensive now than before. In medieval times, you had a 30m² wooden house on your farm that you probably built yourself, no heater, no car, no brand clothes, no washing machine, no electricity at all, no water pipes, etc.
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Because when you work on a farm for yourself, you keep 100% of your work. When you work for a company, it keeps most of your work for itself and gives you some compensation in return that depends on a combination of “how much do you need for living” and “how easily could you find another job”.
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Because people stopped standing up for themselves.
Well, they are amusing themselves to death.
I work 8 to 15. All the afternoon for me, with about 30 vacation days a year. Once I ticket out I can completely forgot about work. You need stronger unions.
EU members?
Yes. But not everyone here gets those hourtimes. It needs to be a place with very strong unions. If not you are still doing 9 to 17
It’s not like that everywhere in the world, but certainly heading in that direction
Where I live, the corporate culture is very weird. Many people here took inspiration from Americans and we have corporate system kinda similar to US.
Because production is increasingly socialized while appropriation is increasingly private. This is the law of capitalist expansion.






