I do think we have a super complex relationship with animals, especially domesticated animals.
I’d like to get to a point where we need to have this conversation.
Well no shit. That applies to most animals we humans care for, even the ones who we don’t typically eat. Try throwing a hairless cat or a pug out into the wild. They can’t manage without us no more.
Interestingly enough you don’t have to be so specific as Black Angus. All cows are totally extinct in the wild. They derive from the Eurasian auroch which went extinct in most places of its original range over 3000 years ago. The absolute last one died in 1627 in Poland, but even that one was probably not pure auroch. If everyone went vegan we would probably still keep a few cows around in zoos but we would have no where near the amount we have today. If we wanted to reintroduce something similar we would have to rely on reintroducing european buffalos, which are another species but still native to Europe.
It’s unfortunate how often I’ve heard this post’s argument in the wild. It’s always been strange to me how people seem to equate “I’m vegetarian” with “everyone should be vegetarian.” As if it’s a given that if one holds a position or belief, they must invariably want to force it on others. It’s a sad state where people can’t comprehend individuals wanting to just do their own thing.
I’m talking as someone who’s never preached, doesn’t go looking for conversations about vegetarianism/veganism, who just occasionally responds to someone’s question of, “What are you having for lunch?” I don’t tell people I’m vegan IRL until it becomes important, because the admission often comes with an interview and/or silly arguments that appear out of the blue. I’m just trying to get through my day, like everyone else. I’m not looking to convert you, I’m not trying to make eating meat illegal, there’s no mass cow genocide in the works, I’m simply sitting here eating hummus. Chill.
A lot of people will attach a morality to their belief structure to basically validate their personal opinions. So it’s not a difference of opinion you are immoral if you don’t eat how I eat because I’m choosing the morally good diet. It’s why it’s hard to have disagreeing discourse these days as people have formed their identity around their beliefs and their beliefs are justified by a contrived moral framework so there can’t be a disagreement as this would be both a personal attack on their identity as well as a moral attack and admission of moral failure and who would listen to the opinion of an immoral person
This is an abstraction of a phenomenon that’s been happening in increasing amounts over the last couple decades and the sperging vegan is a very amusing example of this
there are animal genocides going on tho
Ah yes, breeding sentient creatures to murder thousands and thousands of generations, is better than killing one generation. Is anyone actually moronic enough to get convinced by this argument?
Also, that’s assuming that if everyone stopped eating meat all at once (huh) then we would decide to kill the cows rather than to let them live. So humanity as a whole suddenly grew a conscience, and yet they go murder hobo on the cows for no valid reason.
The funny thing about anti-vegans is that you don’t need to ever ask if they’re anti-vegan, they’ll slap you in the face with fallacies that make Trump look smart.
The most common understanding of genocide is purposfully exterminating the population. It does not matter how it dies out. If it all the subjects are killed, sterilized, purposfully mixed with other population or sent to space. Noone has to die for a genocide to occur.
So we are not discussing: killing a generation vs. killing multiple generations. But rather: exterminating a specie vs killing members of that specie but maintaining a population.
One is “crime” against specific subjects and the other is “crime” against a group.
Casting a judgment on which is worse is however not something I would do.
But I do think people of nationalities with rough histories are thankful that only their ancestors suffered and the nation as a whole still exists.
However most do not have to die when they grow up…
But I think, I would rather lived until grow up and I get eaten as compared to never have existed at all…
how about getting ground up at the ripe age of 1 day old?
I do not know. I was never in that situation.
But If I try to imagine… …even if my life would be hard as hell… I would probably still prefer being born as to not exist at all… Having a consciousness is one of a kind experience…
Also cows of my uncle have it quite nice. All day wandering inside a huge fence, having a lot to eat, hang out with their kids… Cows do not have a freedom to leave, but they have everything else. To me it seems a better life than lots of humans. For example take a young wife of a rich oligarch. She cannot leave, but she has anything that she needs.
what industrial meat, egg or milk production or similar situation have you been in?
tbf these animals’ lives are not “hard” really, they get all the food, growth hormones and antibiotics they need, they just don’t really get to move. oh and they get forcefully impregnated and every offspring gets taken away, or if that’s not possible, (ie male or infertile) they get killed, in the house where all the blood and screaming is
btw previously i was referring to chickens, they grind up male chicks alive because they don’t need as manywhat industrial meat, egg or milk production or similar situation have you been in?
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I do not know. I was never in that situation. For some reason you expect that I would be shocked or that I could not stand such experience. But we have obviously a different standards on what an acceptable cruelty towards animals is. Maybe explaining what is happening was something that changed your opinion. But if you would try to convince as many people as possible and save as many animals as possible you should definitely change your strategy. Because most meat eaters know that and how much animals suffer. And we do not care. Because animal suffering is obviously not enough a priority to change even eating habits. This is genuine advice. Do with it what you want.
they get forcefully impregnated As almost every wife in arabic country. And they would still prefere to exist. And also as most animals in animal kingdom. What they experience is way closer to rape than is to voluntary action as we understand it.
they just don’t really get to move
As lots of sick and/or old people. And most still prefere to exist.
every offspring gets taken away
As it is with moms whose kids die because of sickness or accidents. And they still most often prefere to exist.
in the house where all the blood and screaming is
As any solder and hospital worker (or butcher) And they still prefere to exist.
Some people experience lots od things mentioned above. And I am not claiming those are good things. I am not arguing killing of animals is awesome or we should not abandon it.
I am arguing you are underestimating how much existence is worth. Some people value it less (probably you?), and would kill (euthanize) themselves if they would have to experience stuff mentioned above. But I argue lots and probably most people would still prefere to exist even though they lived horrible life you mention.
I argue that having a horrible, short life that is terminated forcefully is worth more than not existing at all. And this is by a standard of lots of people. We do not even know what percentage of people think this. And we are way more clueless about animal opinion on the matter.
Since when did Velma become Shaggy’s mom?
She was originally intended to be his sister, but it never came up in the show and later shows separated them. And then put them back together in a decidedly non-sibling fashion.
But then we’ll get a pug situation but with cows
Ummm…
Just keep breeding the angus until they’re well again.
