My take is that Alec Baldwin the Actor isn’t to blame. Alec Baldwin the Producer caused all of the Armourer problems by running a low budget production.
As an actor he wasn’t supposed to check the gun, however as a producer he failed by not hiring the correct licensed armourer due to cutting corners.
Probably the most sane take I’ve read so far.
however as a producer he failed
That really depends on what kind of producer he was. Many times getting a producer credit just means you’re a major stakeholder or own some rights involved in the project. A producer isn’t a blame magnet, and negligence can be proven at a level lower than a producer.
He pulled a Boeing max basically. Where in they refused to pay for pilot training which led to many deaths until someone was convicted and they were forced to pay for pilot training. Cutting corners shouldn’t come at a cost of complete negligence for human life.
Actors go through training for learning martial art moves for a film. No reason they can do gun safety training for a film.
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As a human, if you are handed a gun, you check to see if it’s loaded and what it’s loader with. That is the first thing you do when handed a gun. Anything else is irresponsible.
“Wait, so what do I need to do to uncock it so that I can check it over?”
“Actually, it’s weird. You need to pull the trigger halfway, and it releases. But do it carefully.”
“…uh…”“Okay, after nearly shooting my foot off, I’ve opened the gun, and there appear to be rounds inside!! Stop the shoot!”
“Oh. Those are blanks.”
“Wait, how do I know they’re blanks?”
“Same way you know how to uncock it.”Not to mention they’re literally SUPPOSED to point the gun at people, which is also a big “gun safety” no-no.
I do agree, but the reason Baldwin is even being looked at is because he was also the producer, if I’m not mistaken. So it could be related to some negligence on that end. But yeah, as far as what he was doing as an actor, it doesn’t seem like he should have any responsibility.
There’s a few reasons why he was charged, both as an actor and producer. Gun safety just can’t be fucked around with.
In the document, prosecutors accused Baldwin of “many instances of extremely reckless acts” during the film’s production.
They wrote that Baldwin “was not present” for mandatory firearms training before filming began. He was instead provided on-set guidance but prosecutors allege he was “distracted and talking on his cell phone to his family.” The training session was scheduled for an hour but was only 30 minutes long due to Baldwin’s “distraction” on the phone.
… The prosecutor’s statement described several “acts or omissions of recklessness” on the set of Rust. This included foregoing the use of a prop gun during unscheduled rehearsals, willful ignorance toward on-set safety complaints and a lack of armourer-performed safety checks.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9451182/alec-baldwin-rust-manslaughter-charge-phone/amp/
I’m no lawyer or anything, but Baldwin has been an actor in professional movies with prop guns for a long time, I think it’s going to be hard for them to pin it on him (as an actor) for supposedly blowing off a single firearms course, and even that’s unconfirmed right? I think it’s unlikely that they’ll charge him as a producer as well, because it sounds like they hired all the right people for the job and had firearms training and everything.
This whole thing just sounds like lawyers passing the buck back and forth, so who even knows what actually happened at this point. Will be interesting to see what comes up over time.
“Yeah he blew off this years mandatory training, but he showed up to last years training, it can’t be his fault!”.
Idk that doesn’t really seem like a valid excuse
We’re talking manslaughter charges here, Baldwin’s lawyer doesn’t have to prove he’s not at fault, the prosecution has to prove without a reasonable doubt that he is at fault. Very different things.
I agree that the only reason he SHOULD have been looked at is his role as a producer but I don’t think that was the case at all. The ad got a plea deal iirc. It seemed more like the police wanted to get a famous feather in their cap and focused on him as the shooter which was obviously bullshit. Alec Baldwin is a dickhead at least and his wife is weird but blaming him for that was dumb from the get go
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I would say it’s getting attention because he’s an arrogant prick whose arrogance led directly to a murder and we’re all curious if that even means anything anymore.
Wtf does riffing on Trump have to do with it?
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Calling it some right-wing conspiracy is probably where the downvotes are coming from.
- Some serious shit was actually occurring
- Alec Baldwin was a huge arrogant asshole about it at first, trying to cover his ass as a producer regarding #1
- Trump, as Trump does, makes a pretty singular inflammatory comment about it, which points all his brainwashed minions at Baldwin.
So mostly I think the point is that there is room for both on this.
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What?
No, the reason Baldwin is being looked at is because he’s a Democrat and does an impression of dear leader that makes the orange shitstain look like the buffoon he is.
Yep, whoever brought live ammo to the set and loaded it into the gun on a day they probably knew it was going to be used while pointed at another person - that’s the real culprit in all this. 50/50 this was a deliberate hit on baldwin and the poor sod at the other end of the barrel and not just negligence.
Haha. Rando internet schmuck thought they won the argument. But no one expects the 82nd Airborne Division
no one expects the 82nd Airborne Division.
Their chief weapon is surprise… Surprise and fear… Fear and surprise. Their two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…
And snazzy red outfits
I’ll come in again.
Is that a win here? I’d hope someone with a military background would take some responsibility for ensuring the weapon is safe…as should anyone handling a firearm. You can have 10 people check a weapon and confirm its safe before handing it to me and I’m still gonna check it.
Ok? Just because you know to do that doesn’t mean anyone else does or will.
Uh…then they shouldn’t be touching a firearm.
An architect designs a bridge. The materials include a number of steel beams that dont actually meet the support requirements for the bridge’s expected traffic. The bridge collapses.
This guy, to the survivors of the collapse: Have you ever even taken a bridge safety course?
This analogy is flawed. The engineer would be a gunsmith. The bridge collapsing would be the gun catastrophically failing. A bridge is not deliberately designed to inflict damage on animals (mostly humans) the way a gun is.
I wasn’t aiming at crafting the perfect analogy. I wanted to capture the absurdity and fucking asininity of the responders comment.
The point is that it’s not up to either the bridge’s users (the actors in the film) to “take a safety course” - it’s up to the bridge designers/builders (the film set’s armorer if we’re talking about direct blame or the executive film staff if were talking about corner cutting or poor funding) to make sure the bridge (the prop gun) is safe to use.
If Baldwin is culpable for corner cutting as an executive staff member (and for example, hiring a shitty armorer to save on costs), so be it. I don’t give a shit about him. But being mad at someone for not checking a gun when the responsibility lies on a hired expert and this is just how Hollywood operates and in a century of filmmaking there have been a handful of freak accidents?
That’s pretty much what this sounds like to me.
Here’s a more applicable example.
Two carnival clowns are having a faux sword fight. One clown hits the other clown, only to find out that his sword is razor sharp. The second clown is impaled and dies.
Do you think we would give the clown the benefit of the doubt?
Is there a clown armorer in the clown troupe who was supposed to diligently do his job and check that the swords are fake?
I’m not against making the clowns take a class about pressing their thumbs to the blade or trying to slice a piece of paper in half (checking that the bullets in the gun are crimped and, therefore, blank), but if the clown industry’s SOP is to always have a clown armorer on staff and one of the clown armorer’s main jobs is to make sure that all the swords are plastic, then who’s to blame here? Who even stored a real metal sword with the fake plastic clown swords? This is a massive failure in clown procedure.
All of what you said can be true and yet, we would probably convict the clown anyway. The clown is poor, “stupid”, and disposable. Alec Baldwin is protected by his class, wealth, and fame. There are two standards of justice here and Baldwin will be given the benefit of the doubt because of his power.
I’m not so sure we’d convict the clown - but I also wouldn’t argue that the wealthy and famous don’t have their own lane when it comes to legal matters. Even if we didn’t convict the clown, Baldwin’s own road to vindication and absolution would be much, much easier.
And for the record: I don’t care about him in the slightest. If he got life in prison over this, all I’d care about is whether it was a just verdict and sentence.
I agree. I don’t know for sure if we’d convict the clown. I also don’t care about Baldwin. And finally, I also think his privilege protects him.
Why the fuck do they use real weapons on a set and not prop weapons? That’s the part I don’t understand at all…
Prop can also mean it’s a real gun.
You usually want them to be shot, at least with blanks. Nowadays you could probably fake that well with CGI, but using blanks is probably easier (and thus cheaper).
On automatica, they have to put partial obstructions inside the barrels to provide enough back-preasure to cycle the weapons without a bullet. That also means they cannot fire a live round.
Revolvers don’t need the same modification to operate with blanks, but after The Crow and this, they really should have it done anyway.
Iirc Hexum’s gun was loaded with blanks. He held it to his temple not realizing the explosive pressure from the blank was enough to send a piece of his skull through his brain.
More info from the wiki
On October 12, 1984, the cast and crew of Cover Up were filming the seventh episode of the series, “Golden Opportunity”, on Stage 18 of the 20th Century Fox lot. One of the scenes filmed that day called for Hexum’s character to load cartridges into a .44 Magnum handgun, so he was provided with a functional gun and blanks. When the scene did not play as the director wanted it to in the master shot, there was a delay in filming. Hexum became restless and impatient during the delay and began playing around to lighten the mood. He had unloaded all but one (blank) round, spun it, and—simulating Russian roulette—he put the revolver to his right temple and pulled the trigger, unaware of the danger.[8]
The explosive effect of the muzzle blast caused enough blunt force trauma to fracture a quarter-sized piece of his skull and propel this into his brain, causing massive hemorrhaging.[3][9]A 44 magnum? Did he not know how insanely loud those are even with blanks?
I might not know jumping in a jet engine will kill me, but the noise is enough to scare me off trying.
No link?
If you manufacture a prop gun in such a way that it is indistinguishable from the real thing in how it looks, sounds, and functions, you’ve just made a real gun. If you’re able to do all that and make it a completely safe prop without the capability of killing someone when loaded with real ammunition, you could make bank.
How would a fake gun make the sounds? Guess you could add in editing afterwards but the cleanest, easiest and most realistic would always be to use a real gun with blanks I would have thought. But I’m not a movie producer, so idk
Could also be that even if you’re able to get similar quality gun shots off a fake gun, it would cost a lot more in production etc
Ah, didn’t realize that’s what they did. I thought they just fired fake guns (eg something like an airsoft gun with gas blowback or something fancy )and edited the sounds in later.
From what understand, guns are silly loud. Much louder than they sound in movies.
But I’ve never fired or even held one, so what do I know :)
I don’t actually know how they do it in movies but from this one example I’m assuming it was industry standard but I could be wrong.
Other movies might do what you said e.g. airsoft gun or fake gun, with edited sounds later
I do find it hard to believe the industry standard is to use real guns with blanks but it may be that way. It’s a lot simpler, but obviously more dangerous
And yes guns are very loud, after a gun goes off beside you, you will have a sort of numbing in your ear for a few seconds and you can’t hear anything out of it lol
According to the Associated Press, since 1990:
43 people died on sets in the U.S. and more than 150 had been left with life-altering injuries.
But only two of those deaths in that time were from firearms.
I’ve done some digging, and I can only find 3 people who’ve died from firearms accidents in Hollywood’s history: Jon-Erik Hexum, Brandon Lee, and Halyna Hutchins. Does anybody know of another production worker killed by firearms?
Can any industry or profession that regularly deals with firearms compare with this kind of safety record? People in law enforcement, the military, and regular gun owners who lecture Hollywood on firearms safety probably need to STFU.
Alec Baldwin was a producer on the movie and thus was involved in the decision making process to have nonunion crew on set. IATSE armorers have a near-perfect track record with firearms on set. As somebody with the clout to make it happen, Baldwin should have insisted on the shoot being a union set.
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Can you explain the link between The Crow and John Wick? I’ve not heard this one.
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The tweet is from January. The trial only started today, so I’d argue it’s topical. But there’s no limit on the age of posts in this community. As the community grows, or someone other than me submits a post we’ll revisit that rule. As I’m doing all the legwork for this community and two others, I’m disinclined to make things harder for myself right now tbh - plus I don’t use Twitter or Facebook so I’m just stealing posts I like from Reddit to get things going. If anyone wants to do the same, the dystopia app for sight impaired users is free and has no ads. Just don’t vote or comment and Reddit won’t benefit from your views.
I’ll be making a stickied post in the coming days asking for additional moderators and for feedback on the rules. I’d encourage everyone to have their say then - I would like this community to be a group effort, rather than me just making the rules as I go. Meanwhile, please feel free to post your own content and help make this community more diverse (and interesting!)
EDIT: I’m getting myself confused. I’ve already made a stickied post requesting additional moderators and inviting people to discuss the rules and/or the way this community is being run.
That’s the place to bring up your concerns. I’d prefer to keep the post comments relevant to the post and as conflict free as possible. Please post in the stickied thread, or create your own discussion thread.
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I’m pretty left wing myself, and British, so I feel reasonably sure I’m not pushing any right wing agenda. Discussion of the topics posted is completely fine as long as everyone follows the community, instance and site-wide rules. It’s perfectly acceptable for people to have different opinions from me or you, as long as they are respectful in discussing them.
They’re not memes, they’re screenshots. Have you heard of content aggregators? It’s a pretty standard thing - and it probably accounts for at least 50% of what you see online.
2.5k subscribers suggest people they’re enjoying this community and content. There was remarkably little content on lemmy a month ago that wasn’t tech related or actual memes. If we want lemmy to succeed we need light hearted communities as well as the serious stuff. I want lemmy to succeed, I don’t want to go back to Reddit, so I’m doing my part. Why are you here if you don’t like the content? Why don’t you post your own content if you like the community but not the content? Why don’t you volunteer to mod if you don’t like the way I’m running this community?
As to your questions;
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I feel confident that a squad leader of specialist army division will have had a weapons safety lesson or two in their time. This meets the posting guidelines I wrote, imo.
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I don’t know what a chud is. But assuming it’s something bad, I think it’s important to talk about contentious issues as long as everyone follows the rules. Avoiding topics completely just because chuds (?) also talk about the topic is silly. Bigots, rule/aggressive people, and people arguing in bad faith are not tolerated here. Report rule breaking comments and they will be deleted. Violators of the rules get one warning before being banned.
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This community didn’t exist a month ago. The shooting was not discussed here. This community is primarily for entertainment purposes - although discussion is perfectly acceptable, even encouraged. It is possible to discuss something without getting too serious about it.
You aren’t everyone. You aren’t the discussion police. If you’d like to dictate what people can or can’t post and talk about, create your own community.
- Once again, not a meme. Content aggregation. I’d prefer it if you didn’t liken me to Elon musk or call my efforts bullshit. As a reminder; insults and name calling is not allowed. That’s not my rule, it’s lemmys.
Thank you for your input.
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You’re being aggressive, argumentative and condescending. It’s uncalled for and unwelcome.
I started to reply to each point before I realised it’s futile, and frankly it’s not what I want to do with my Friday night.
I think it’s best if you leave the community.
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Wow the 82nd, this is like getting D, there are 81 airborns before yours.
I don’t know how the US army structured, it’s a joke right? Like there no corelation between how good the Brigade(?) and it’s number right? Lmao
The numbers are random and non-sequential, i.e. the existence of SEAL Team 6 doesn’t imply the existence of 5 other SEAL teams. Equipment serial numbers are the same.
If you did assign numbers sequentially, enemy forces can get a guess as to your numbers based on the serial/unit numbers of captured equipment and soldiers
Hey, this is where my ability to remember stupid shit I don’t want to comes into play!
SEAL Team 6 DOES imply that there are 5 other SEAL teams… if you don’t know any better. It’s literally the reason it was called team 6 and not 3.
At the time, there were two SEAL Teams, SEAL Team ONE and SEAL Team TWO. Marcinko named the unit SEAL Team Six in order to confuse Soviet intelligence as to the number of actual SEAL teams in existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAL_Team_Six
Yes, you knew that. Not everyone that read your post did, but now they do.
The issue is, as I understand it, that Baldwin was handed the revolver from a producer or someone of similar standing and he should have handed it to the armorer for checking, regardless of what he was told.
Doesn’t matter. “Prop” guns don’t exist and every gun is unfit unless physically checked by yourself personally.
No idea why you are getting so much hate. Anyone who has been taught how to handle a firearm knows to treat every weapon as if it was loaded. It doesn’t matter if it’s a training firearm which can be a very bright color and has parts visibly drilled out so you can see it will not function, guns firing blanks, an airsoft gun, even something like a pneumatic nail gun, etc. Verify the source of ammunition is empty and there is not a round in the chamber visibly and physically.
I’m not saying everyone in the world should know this, but anyone handling any form of firearm should. Alec Baldwin has been in enough movies and shows where guns were handled that he must have been taught this and seen it as the protocol multiple times.
This is gun safety and it’s not a bad thing,.I’m not a huge gun fan myself but promoting firearm safety isn’t anything to look down on.
Actually, prop guns do exist and I’m not talking about the ones that shoot blanks.
Or have you never seen a cosplayer with a gun?
There are realistic looking prop guns that are built without a firing mechanism. Without, meaning it never existed in the design.
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OK Rambo.
Why don’t they remove the firing mechanism from prop guns? The hammer that strikes the bullet?
Prop guns often fire blanks for the sound and flash, so they still need a firing pin.
It doesn’t have to be like that. We could design a different firing mechanism.
We don’t need to. Only 3 people have died by guns on film sets in over 30 years, and every time it’s cause some idiot used real ammo in it at some point. Just never use real ammo in your prop guns, and they are always fine.
That’s not what happened. The guns were used with real ammo at a range to go shooting, then used as prop guns later without properly checking that there were no live rounds or lodged bullets in the guns.
And I’m not minimizing them, I’m telling you the actual solution isn’t modifying the firing pin, or changing the rules, since the rules work. These deaths were due to idiots breaking the rules, but the rules have worked to prevent thousands of deaths, and if followed no one will ever dies.
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Million dollar idea right here
Yep. It would cost a million dollars to develop and still no one would use it.
I get what he’s saying, but in something as high stakes as this safety needs to be the responsibility of everyone involved.
There should be as many redundant safety checks as possible.
Actors are not expected to be knowledgeable about weapons. If they are required to check their own weapons, they would not do so competently, and may come to incorrect conclusions. This could add incompetent confusion about the weapon safety to the situation, and that’s bad for safety.
It takes like two minutes to learn how to safely check a gun. Surely they spend more than that learning walking to the set from the parking lot.
Safely check WHICH gun?
The live firing weapon? The blank firing gun? The resin replica? Are they expected to remove any rounds in a firearm, be it live or replica, and verify that it is indeed a blank?
No. That is ONE person’s job for a reason. That is the firearms expert’s job. Nobody else’s.
You accept that responsibility with the job.
The one in their hand.
The one in their hand.
So they need to be trained how to spot the difference between a live and blank round and how to check every firearm on the set.
OR
You could just have one person that’s an expert on firearms do that for everyone, thereby eliminating any possibility that an untrained know-nothing actor accidentally lights off a round while fumblefucking with a firearm they know nothing about, trying to check it.
Hey genius, what good does “checking” a firearm do if they’re literally there to fire off blank rounds?
They don’t even need to know how to check a gun. They just need to follow the safety protocols and not point it at someone. Pointing a real gun, which this was, at something you are not ok destroying is a violation of basic firearms safety, 82nd airborne or not.
I agree, especially if real guns are being used. But what I don’t get is why in this case it would be Baldwin’s fault. If this is industry-wide practice, why was he charged?
I think the industry needs to change so that for action scenes with real weapons, everyone who touches the weapon gets basic safety and firearms training. Knowing how to hold and operate the weapon, the safety rules, how to check to make sure the weapon is clear, etc.
Baldwin’s culpability as an actor lies in how he accepted the gun from the assistant director instead of the armorer and accepted the gun without being present to observe a safety check, something which he should know not to do since he supposedly had the mandatory safety training. The assistant director is not the armorer and is unqualified to declare a gun ”safe/cold". When guns are handed out prior to filming a scene at least 3 parties are supposed to be present to observe a safety check conducted by the armorer. These are the actor, armorer, and the director/an assistant director. The armorer is the qualified expert. The actor should want to know that they’re not about to shoot someone with a real gun and real bullets. And the director/assistant director acts as a representative of the downrange cast and crew. This is supposed to be done every time a gun changes hands on set.
I’m not super up to date with the situation—Why is it that it happened in 2021 (from what I can find) and there’s a bunch of people talking about it right now?
The trial started this week so it’s somewhat topical. But there are no time limits for posts here. If you’d like that rule to change, please comment in the stickied post with your reasoning and suggestion for what the limit should be. Thanks.
There’s a few reasons why he was charged, both as an actor and producer. Gun safety just can’t be fucked around with.
In the document, prosecutors accused Baldwin of “many instances of extremely reckless acts” during the film’s production.
They wrote that Baldwin “was not present” for mandatory firearms training before filming began. He was instead provided on-set guidance but prosecutors allege he was “distracted and talking on his cell phone to his family.” The training session was scheduled for an hour but was only 30 minutes long due to Baldwin’s “distraction” on the phone.
… The prosecutor’s statement described several “acts or omissions of recklessness” on the set of Rust. This included foregoing the use of a prop gun during unscheduled rehearsals, willful ignorance toward on-set safety complaints and a lack of armourer-performed safety checks.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9451182/alec-baldwin-rust-manslaughter-charge-phone/amp/
Whatever happened was horrible but also, and my brain can’t stop thinking about this, will the movie ever come out? I don’t think it did
They resumed filming after Bladwin was found not guilty and subsequently wrapped, but there’s no release date or anything yet
He wasn’t found “not guilty”, it doesn’t even sound like charges were brought against him, his lawyers just started that he wouldn’t be charged which means that there is a possibility of charges being brought against him in the future if new evidence comes to light.
Oh yeah the execs will sit on it until they feel safe that the release will not reflect badly on them.
Amongst all the huhbub and finger pointing, the actual first rule of guns is always check that the gun is loaded.
You check the chamber and you check the ammo.
At no point should there ever be live ammo on a movie shoot. Whether that Baldwin’s fault for hiring a shitty armorer, I don’t know. But there where many failures up and down the line. If the assistant director was also supposed to check, they also failed.
But at the end of the line, Alec Baldwin picked up the gun and didn’t or couldn’t identify that the gun was loaded with live ammunition and pulled the trigger while it was pointed at someone. And that person died.
You check the chamber and you check the ammo.
So actors, who aren’t experts, should be disassembling and unloading/loading the guns they’re using, after the armorer has declared the gun safe? Is that what you think will make this safer?
Same rules as climbing. Check your own gear, and check your partner’s gear.
The armorer can unload, check, and reload the gun in front of the actor. Then the actor can unload, check, and reload the gun under the training and supervisions if the armorer. Any actor seeking to hold a real gun should also need independent, verified training that comes from outside the studio. We don’t let actors fly planes or perform surgery to make the shot slightly more realistic unless they have valid training, why should guns be any different?
There is also no valid reason (cost is not a valid reason) for why there would be a real bullet that fits in a real gun (the lead projectile part) anywhere on set. Even if you need a shot with one, don’t make it out of metal or anything strong enough to survive the blank going off.
Whoeve loaded the gun is partially responsible. Alec Baldwin the producer is the most responsible. And Alec Baldwin the actor is partially responsible.
There is also no valid reason (cost is not a valid reason) for why there would be a real bullet that fits in a real gun (the lead projectile part) anywhere on set.
There is a valid reason: you can get a realistic kick back from firing a real bullet compared to a blank. There is a safe way to do those kinds of stunts, but the accident here happened because things weren’t done safely.
You can crash a car by being unsafe; you wouldn’t get a bunch of people up in arms saying “There is also no valid reason (cost is not a valid reason) for why there would be a real car that fits in a real lane (the space between the white painted lines) anywhere on the road”
They are actors. They can act. Movies break verisimilitude in countless other ways (many of them much stupider).
If the actor were driving the car directly at someone on the road without a license or any driving training or experience then you might have a point with the second part.
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Look I don’t know shit about acting or movie sets or armorer’s or any of that shit but…
I’m going to give my opinion anyway.
I know nothing about guns. I’ve never shot a gun. If I looked at a gun and was even able to figure out how to look in the chamber without killing myself or someone else, I wouldn’t know if the ammunition was live or a blank. And they use blanks all the time in movies.
Why expect Alec Baldwin to know about guns?
He’s at fault for hiring the armorer, not firing the gun.
“Well, George, the casting crew has gotten back to us. Your unique drawl, your frazzled look in an unshaven state, the way you delivered those lines - everything is perfect! You’re the new star actor this studio has been looking for, and perfect to play the villain of our upcoming serial!”
“Well, that’s incredible!”
“Unfortunately, since the character in question holds a gun in two scenes of the series, and you got 2 questions wrong on the firearms exam, we’re going to have to turn you down. We take safety very seriously.”
“Couldn’t…someone else just check weapons for me?”
“They could, but that might involve relying on another person for tasks they’re more suited for, and last I checked, this wasn’t Communismerica.”
