People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google’s Play store, without having to:
- pay Google
- give government ID to Google
- agree to Google terms and conditions
People should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google’s Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We’ve got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
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Dumb question: how is this affecting projects like Graphene OS?
Can android just be forked and detached from google?
I am guessing that despite being “open source”, the project depends on many binary blobs to interface with the wireless devices ??
Google has been systematically moving stuff out of the open-source part of Android and into proprietary areas for some time now. They’re making it harder and harder for anyone to make a working Android OS that isn’t full of closed-source Google spyware. For now these projects survive, but Google is clearly hostile to them.
What would it take to start from a clean slate? I mean, a mad lad said about 35 years ago “UNIX expensive. I’m gonna make my own OS”
What are the obstacles for something like this to happen for phones? I assume device drivers, but probably it is much more complicated than that
I have a GNU/Linux phone I carry in my other pocket. Here are the biggest issues I can see:
- Driver support for components in the mainline kernel (lets you install any distro and things like camera, Bluetooth just work)
- Power management; turns out it is a hard technical problem to have your phone suspend to save energy, while being awake enough to know what and when to turn back on to receive chats/calls, playback music, etc
- Cameras have a lot of stuff beyond drivers happening behind the scenes these days in software that would need to be developed, especially given it is a big reason people choose their phones for
- Phone certification is tough, this has stopped even companies like Fairphone from shipping their devices worldwide, I imagine even harder for a device like the Purism Librem 5 where you can literally upgrade Wi-Fi, BT, and cellular generations like a gameboy cartridge
- App ecosystems take a while to build up, it is a chicken/egg scenario. I think things are in a useable state for all the default apps an iPhone has, but if you want Uber, Uber Eats, you either have to draw even more power essentially running Android via Waydroid, or use a typically more janky web app that may be missing some features
Aren’t there also issues with Banking Apps and their requirements around security and signing?
access the bank website in the browser?
way ahead there, I use Android and my internet banking app is just a wrapper for their website.
Not all have websites sadly. Virgin for example got rid of their web app and now direct you to download them mobile app as the only way to manage your accounts outside of the brick and mortar branches. Obviously I now rarely use that credit card, if ever. But others may have their main bank accounts and mortgages etc with such a bank and that would suck.
oof, yeah, that sounds like a good reason not to do business with them
I’ve been thinking of carrying two devices, one three devices and one corporate nonsense for unlimited few apps that require it. The corporate one can just be some cheap thing it doesn’t matter. Honestly I’ll probably use my current phone for that all as long as it still holds up battery charge through my day
As some other people mentioned the Waydroid app or their website can work. If you do Waydroid, you can install Gapps, and other banking app isn’t happy with that, they typically offer decent mobile websites.
GNOME Web and Mozilla Firefox via this PWA extension let you have a dedicated app icon for any web service you want into your app drawer. The Firefox one works best, and I believe does a better job isolating stuff from the main browser.
What’s cool is you can run an entire Monero wallet (or other cryptocurrency) on device for full mobile financial experience, though don’t store more in it than you would a regular wallet.
I carry a Linux phone in my normal pocket, not my other one.
The camera doesn’t work, I don’t have any problem with apps but I am probably not a typical user in that regard, but my 5000mAh battery lasts me a day and ends on 30-40%, which is reasonable but not nearly as good as Android. My family members complain I sound like I’m underwater when I call them and the phone crashes every morning when I take it off the charger.
Linux phones are a wonderful promise but require a lot of comprimises. I hope they improve soon
FSF has a project called LibrePhone
Broken link?
I see a lot of people responded with a true clean slate, but really, a fork is a clean slate.
It’s not like Graphene, or Lineage, or any others would stop working. More maintainers would be needed for security issues, but way less than to get (non-Android) Linux phones up to speed.
Many graphene users, myself included, use all FOSS software from outside Google’s store.
My last straw was when I had location services permission denied to chrome, and then one day discovered that it had turned them back on without notifying me…
Also, every time my apps updated they gave themselves back permissions that I had disabled.
Okay here what noone talks about android is linux at its core if android and linux were merged it wouldnt to hard of a parject but the issue is time and resources. If linux and android were merged as open source it screw up the entire system and google would be screwed and thwy realised that and thats why their quietly trying to do it first.
Honestly we need operating systems to be regulated to have the freedom to install any app you want without the company’s permission. Maybe not all of them, but any provided with a general computation device such as a computer or smartphone, and the freedom to replace operating systems on any device that isn’t highly specialized with immediate safety concerns (stuff like insulin pump systems and cars)
And I’m already steadily moving to Linux based platforms like Mobian, SailfishOS, Ubuntu Touch, and others.
This vile move by Google was written on the wall for years. Those who use their products are test subjects who then are promoted to cattle, not customers.
Which devices do you use? I really want to do this but need banking stuff, WhatsApp (for family communication) and the phone on my Pixel 7 is really good so dont want to lose that.
Not OP, but when i was running custom ROMs on my main device I carried 2 devices, i had my main phone in my pocket and my secondary in my purse. The secondary ran “Android” so i could use tap pay and the like.
You said ‘When’ - does that mean you stopped?
Yeah, i just run a very heavily modified android now. Hard to find good phones (with features that i want and need) with enough software support. Couldn’t get lineage os working on my zenfone, it was a horribly buggy experience and I couldn’t get mobile networks working. I needed more reliability and stability, so i manually debloated and stripped almost all telemetry. Rooted this thing and blocked anything that isn’t whitelisted.
I have a Pixel 7 I’ve been dailying for over a year with GrapheneOS. All my banking apps work great in their segregated profile and even Android Auto. I don’t use WhatsApp, I’ve converted my friends and family to Signal. Your mileage may obviously vary, but definitely consider it. Graphene doesn’t address the meat of this post (Google fucking Android), but definitely helps for the interim (until Linux phones are truly viable).
Run any Android specific apps in Waydroid (e.g. WhatsApp) and it appears as just another icon in your app drawer, or use a web app, again you can make it a dedicated icon in your app drawer.
Unfortunately Google Pixel 7 is not a device supported yet on any distros I’ve seen; PostmarketOS has the best support for Android devices. Across distros, Fairphone has the best support.
What people with Android devices can do though, is install Linux on top of Android. Opposite of Waydroid (not as good), but at least lets you play around with it to get familiar without needing root:
Graphene runs on pixel and has a step by step guide on how to install it. You can also put your banking apps in another profile with Google Play services in it or run Google Play services in a sandbox on your main profile (I believe you can set that up when setting up the phone it’s just a toggle switch).
I will say my pixel 6 runs significantly better with graphene than my 8 does with regular Android and it was easy to install to test drive. I did have an issue with Android Auto but I have to check again to see if I fixed it.
I’ve said on a few occasions when this subject came up about them closing off the ability to install whatever you want - the only reason Android has been what it is until now is because they needed an “in” to compete against iOS and Windows. Gaining a foothold was the priority, but now that they’re huge they can do what they’ve always wanted, to follow Apple’s example of mandatory middle-man.
It’s sickening. What people need to do is only buy second-hand and use devices that can be ROM-ed. I have a couple dozen that I tinker with and test stuff on. I also buy older models, put custom ROMs and Recovery and then sell them at a small premium, but I digress.
There’s only one way to get what you want as a consumer: unite and don’t buy.
Or… just don’t use android. There’s a few degoogled forks out there, they should really catch on.
“The tighter you squeeze, the more slips through your fingers.”
Also, we all know this isn’t about keeping malicious apps off people’s devices, because even the play store is full of malicious apps. I’d trust anything on F-droid more.
They are, graphene will be getting a side launch with a major distributor about a year a after launch and you can mamual install it when the flagship is released. The reason google phones buy is so people can install graphen lol.
Any update on what the Grapheme phone will be? Have not heard of it since it was announced
Its going to be motorola and the first phone that can support it wont roll out till 2027
Thank you
There are more besides just graphene though
I trust 8 year old out of date F-droid apps more than google play front page apps.
Some fdroid apps are absolutly goated that you cant get on playstore
Where’s “you should use Graphene OS”, which you should do anyway?
I’m glabbergasted that this is the first time I’m hearing about this, while it’s been known since november.
From the FAQ page
Sideloading is fundamental to Android, and it’s not going anywhere.
What’s the concern here?
