- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.ml
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I believe discussion on this flares up now and then because it is an easy answer, tough decision.
If you make this decision for others: of course this is the most ethical thing to do, the data isn’t ambiguous.
If you are yourself affected: Oof. Yes it might be better for society, but personally I value this and that, and I am but one and would rather wait on legislation before I do anything.
We love to argue it because one side thinks experiencing it taints your view, the other that only reading data misses the point. Can be about indoor cats, vegan diets or pineapple on pizza, the argument itself never matters.
Bigger issue imo is cats destroying wild life not the wild life destroying cats. Either way, keep your cat inside.
tbf, in most urban/sub urban areas, it’s too late already.
Its not, nature can recover very quickly given the right respect
So, now you’re starving coyotes?
Some of us live in countries that don’t really have dangerous wild life and cats have been allowed outside for over 1000 years.
>countries that don’t really have dangerous wildlife
>cats have been allowed outside for over 1000 years
Sounds like your country does have dangerous wildlife, you just like the predator more than the prey
Sure it used to but we killed them off centuries ago
cats have been allowed outside for over 1000 years
That’s simply not true. There were never as many outdoor cats as there is today and cats used to have natural predators everywhere to keep environmental balance which is lost today. Keeping all of your pets indoors (or at least backyard) is the only ethically viable position.
Downvoted by people who don’t like facts. There isn’t a country in the world with a domestic cat population that wouldn’t see a huge benefit to their native wildlife by keeping those pets inside or in a pet run. But people don’t like the change or the effort of doing so, so they ignore this inconvenient fact.
We really are a bunch of dumb apes, and we are doomed as a species. Its just a matter of time.
Indeed, pet owners simply don’t want to hear the truth which is incredibly irresponsible.
Even if you really must let your cat out there are things you can do like colorful collars with an attached bell which:
The BBScc reduced the number of birds brought home by 37% (probability of reduction of 88%). The number of mammals brought home was reduced by 54–62%, but only with the additional bell (probability of reduction of >99%)
https://zenodo.org/records/15210938
I’ve never seen a cat owner who cares enough to even do that when we have clear evidence this works. The naturalist argument of “oh they are local animals” is such an irresponsible cop out where they can’t even bother to put a collar on to diminish the damage. It’s inexcusable laziness, nothing else.
Do you live in a building? Like something that was built by humans?
Then you have killed more animals than any cat will ever kill. Your continued use of any kind of lodging is killing animals.
Please stop living inside a man made structure and help destroy said structure so birds can live and take back their habitats.
After you do that, I will stop letting my 15 year old cat outside.
Have a great life!
Lmao what a stupid fallacy thats not even worth responding to. Bye
It’s OK, I thought what you wrote was not worthy of my time either, but then I decided to educate actual intelligent people, so I responded.
Im sure there are no birds in turkey, according to your logic.
Humans are dangerous wildlife not least because of our cars. That is why indoor cats live 10-20 years and outdoor cats 2-4
It’s hardly just cars. They have similar lifespans in areas that aren’t so car-centric.
They get parasites. They get into fights with animals in their weight class (like racoons). They get trapped by animals outside their weight class (like wolves). Tons of issues in the wild.
My uncle has a farm with a bunch of feral cats around. I learned at a young age to never get too attached to outdoor farm cats.
This is Michu, he used to live next door to me. He would be outside all the time, even in the freezing cold. Sometimes I’d hear him meowing at the neighbor’s back door to come back in, but nobody would answer. I’d hear the little guy calling out, and nobody would even be home. Sometimes I’d find him curled up on my deck chairs, so I started leaving blankets on them for cold nights. Eventually he started approaching me when I sat outside. We’d chill on the step and watch nature together.
But then a few months ago, he stopped coming. He stopped appearing entirely. When I talked to the neighbors, I learned that he’d contracted a UTI and had died. (Apparently it only takes a few hours for a swollen urethra to kill a male cat.)
Now, I don’t know how much his outdoors lifestyle contributed to his acquisition of a UTI (since they can occur in indoor cats as well, and search engine enshittification is making my search for hard data impossible.) However, I imagine that if Michu had been inside, his people might have noticed he wasn’t healthy.
Honestly, I’m not a vet and I’ve never had a cat, so I don’t feel qualified to tell people how to take care of theirs. This thread just reminded me of how I miss this little guy. He was around 4 years old and still had a lot of love to give. I was just lucky enough to receive some of it.
RIP, Michu ❤️
Where you live perhaps, I don’t know anyone that has had an issue here. As I said, some of us live in different countries.
But sure if you live next to a typical American 16 lane backroad you might not want to let them out.
Yeah I always found the argument absurd as I live on a paved over rectangle with a few square feet of grass my cat likes to poop on while he hangs out with the local squirrels. He is far too lazy to hunt anything, he killed a mouse that was actually inside the house many many years ago but has been a pacifist since. He is 15 he literally wants to sit in the sun and do nothing.
Of course there are some cats who will hunt, and their owners should not allow that. But the blanket statements about environmental impacts, while they cool their house with AC, burn fossil fuels to heat food and go to work, order crap on Amazon…just lacks perspective.
As a cat owner who works in the animal industry, you’re suffering from ‘my personal experience is reality-itis’.
You can’t ‘not allow’ your cat to hunt. The only chance you have is to keep it inside. Your old cat likely doesn’t hunt outside but to think it killed a single mouse it’s entire life, is delusional.
I don’t understand people like you. Can you not accept that there are shades of gray, and exceptions to every rule? I’m simply arguing that not all cats MUST be kept indoors no ifs ands or buts. I concede that many cats, young ones in particular, will kill small animals. My (rescue) cat was an indoor cat for most of his 15 years and only when I moved from a major urban city apartment building to a slightly less-urban city single family house did I let him outside under controlled circumstances. I straight up know he isn’t going around killing things. I didn’t go out and BUY this cat, I’m not actively contributing to breeding or anything. I have an animal that deserves to enjoy his old age.
I should probably not engage with you people and just keep my truth to myself.
keep my truth to myself.
Deluded.
Your particular circumstances are why YOUR particular 15 year old cat is great hanging in his own yard. It is not an argument in general even that SOME cats ought to be outdoor because they are overwhelmingly get killed and kill out there.
Your argument is so inapplicable to almost anyone else that its like saying your former ax murderer friend is totally safe because he’s taken up Buddhism and non-violence and is now mostly crippled.
Cats don’t always show you what they kill. I had a roommate that kept letting my cats out. Never saw them kill anything. Then my neighbor told me about how they were little murder machines while I was out at work. Tried taking out a whole near of baby birds.
I have cameras, and I work from home. He literally does not leave a fenced-in rectangle. I know for a fact he doesn’t kill anything.
It very well could be true. But I also don’t really think you’ve been able to watch your cat every moment of his outdoor life to know he literally never goes anywhere and has never killed anything. My cats are indoor only in a tiny apartment and I frequently can’t figure out where they are, even when I worked from home.
Bullshit and hearsay.
Those houses you both live in, how many animals were displaced to build them? How many died so your house can exist? You blame cats for the misery we as humans do to species of this planet. Sad
This is bullshit logic. We as adult humans already exist and have little choice about national housing policy. We can however choose not to contribute to suburban sprawl OR murder cats roaming the neighborhood whacking the wildlife. We can also choose not to have 12 children who will need space too. Not being able to do everything is a poor reason not to do anything.
Those cats already exist, you dipshit. Adopt, don’t buy. Spay/neuter. Let them have an enjoyable life and move the fuck on.
Yes buddy I did adopt from the shelter I was volunteering at. In order to adopt you have to agree that the cat will not be allowed to roam outdoors because they don’t want to adopt to morons.
I don’t remember blaming cats all man made environmental catastrophes, but whatever.
It’s a form of nonsense argument where instead of addressing the actual point someone points at something worse and implies that if we can’t stop insert worse thing we somehow needn’t worry about insert less worse thing. In actuality presumably they have an outdoor cat and are contributing to the problem and just want to justify it.
Urban sprawl as well.
These cat hater can’t even get their heads out of their asses long enough to realize that humans are the biggest issue for wild animals bar none.
We destroy their habitat faster than any cat can hunt, but the cats are literally Hitler in their eyes.
They are delusional in my eyes.
A lot of those so called cat haters actually love cats. Did you know that outdoor cats have much shorter lifespans?
And you’re a fucking idiot. The cat is a tool of humans killing animals.
You are delusional in the majority of the population’s eyes.
Oh no, not the majority. Whatever will I do?
Your words are of an eloquence that would make a sow blush. Idiot indeed!
What a grasp of the English language you have; educate me more, Daddy.
Let’s keep building houses and not talk about how that destroys countless species’ habitats.
No, let’s shit on cats for the misery WE cause.
Saying an animal can’t go outside because they are the Hitler of animals is so disingenuous and out of touch with reality.
Cats are animals and are in their element outside. Birds are not being massacred by cats. They are being massacred by humans, and you are a fool for thinking any different.
Maybe stop hating cats and start hating humans if you want to protect birds’ habitat from being destroyed.
Hypocrites, the lot of you.
This lot is impossible to reason with, but I applaud your effort.
Birds are not being massacred by cats. They are being massacred by humans, and you are a fool for thinking any different.
Google is right there, dipshit
Insult me more, and i will change my mind, Daddy.
We cause it both by building over all the habitat AND by letting cats loose. Since I have to live somewhere I won’t feel bad about existing but I’ also won’t be letting my cat out to make it worse. That said that is 99.9% because outdoor cats normally live 2-4 years and indoor cats live 10-20 years. May cat gets to go outside in a strolller/harness and otherwise gets to roam our floor of the apartment.
Tell this to fucking New Zealand.
Tell it to Turkey!
I can’t take anyone seriously on cat welfare if they have a cat mutilated just to prevent furniture getting some scratch marks.
My cat loves her 6 C-size breast implants thank you very much. The reduced scratching is just a tangential benefit to her self image.
Have you found a surgeon willing to do all eight breasts? I’m finding most top out at six, even on eight-nippled cats like mine. One surgeon said he’d only do two! I was like, this is a cat, sir, not a tabaxi.
I witnessed basically this exact conversation once. We were in the exam room, and our vet stepped out to the computer in the hallway to show a woman her cat’s X-rays. Apparently it had been attacked by a dog and wouldn’t make it.
The vet literally said, “So what did we learn today? Don’t let your cat outside if you want it to live.”
Funny.
In Europe we’ve the same discussion for the opposite reasons.
Do not let the cat outside, it will kills other animals.
It’s really both. Eventually cat will get into an accident, but on the way there it will take a whole bunch of smaller animals and birds with it.
Never had a cat that got into an accident, though one of my current cats is an idiot when it comes to walking across the drive
This reads a bit like “that hasn’t happened to me so that doesn’t happen”.
“I don’t wear my seatbelt, but nothings happened so it’s probably fine”
But that’s the point. I don’t want mice around the house.
Wow, that’s ruff
It is better for the bird population, too.
Holy crap…yes. leash your cats for the love of all that is fuzzy.
The anger people have when you tell them it’s neglect when you just let a cat roam free. It’s insanity. Your cat can easily just never come home or be found dead to many things, and they also destroy lots of wildlife and crap on people’s property with no respecting owner to clean up.
No one would take this from dogs…so why cats? It’s literally for their safety and the safety of other animals…its mind boggling and the downvotrs prove it
The anger people have when you tell them it’s neglect when you just let a cat roam free. It’s insanity.
If you want to see people loose their mind, suggest that the way we dominate these animals to please us is the root cause of all that suffering and neglect.
*I live with a cat and am having beef for dinner. I’m a hypocrite, not PETA.
Peta is also Extremely hypocritical but I agree.
My neighbors had a skunk that lived in the garage. Her name was Petunia. The neighbors never got rid of her because she harmed no one and was never problemativc and “where else is she going to live we dont use the garage.” Her or one of her kids who we all assumed was Petunia lived there from at least 1978-2004 (RIP). Petunia literally controlled the block because she was very large. Despite the neighbor hood telling every newcomer about Petunia someone would think their cat can handle it and be surprised that a 15 lb/6kg skunk is in fact terrifying to kitties.
Here is a perspective from someone who has owned an inside/outside cat for the last 12 years. My cat is independent and resourceful and yes, contributes to ecodestruction by killing birds and mice occasionally. To me this is negligible compared to the ecodestruction of simply existing in a city. If I lived in nature I would not have a cat. I don’t think you can conflate my cat killing a pigeon twice a year in an urban environment with destroying the ecosystem.
It’s also disengenuous to ignore the quality of life improvements of having a cat who is free to explore vs. one locked in an apartment all day. I recently moved and am now experiencing this and it sucks. I feel terrible for restricting her freedom and she is visibly less happy. If you think animals are sentient and have emotions, and you care about the environment, then none of what we are currently doing makes any sense.
I do <insert bad thing> already so I don’t need to avoid doing <insert other bad thing> because I already do <bad thing> even though the nature of my effect on the world is the sum of my behavior and I’m really bad at logic.
Yup, and I’m the only one with agency in the whole world. It’s all about me.
literally everyone has agency.
Ok I see my sarcasm was lost on you so let me try again. There is nothing ethical about pet ownership or industrial civilization. If we cared about the well being of pets we wouldn’t keep them, and if we cared about the well being of the planet we wouldn’t build cities or burn fossil fuels.
I already have a cat. The above is moot for me. If I had to rethink this then maybe 12 years ago I would have made a different decision. At this point I am not going to euthenize my cat or blow up an oil pipeline. If you allow my cat agency then she should be allowed to explore her world and make her own decisions, just like the pigeons and rats that are forced to adapt to human civilization by eating garbage.
Anyway she’s safely locked away and miserable now so none of this matters.
You are a human who thinks and cares about others and living creatures in nature, not a virtue signaler wanting points on the internet by shitting on cats. Thank you.
Yes, I will bring my half feral barn cat inside.
I used to be a kennel worker, met thousands of cats over the years. Never once met a cat who did not adapt to being indoor only within a month
But then who will catch the mice in my barn?
You know the reason it’s a feral cat, is because people let the cats roam free. It’s the result of people neglecting their pets and letting them roam to begin with.
This a compounding issue and people are justifying loose feral cats, because they found a loose feral cat so it must remain feral.
Barn cats with a job on a farm in the country are obviously a different story, my issue is more directed at the cats roaming in urban neighbourhoods, with no purpose/job.
Picture your neighbourhood with feral dogs…you’d be annoyed/upset/scared when you come across one taking a massive dump on your lawn and it gets defensive about its territory. Cats are realistically no different but somehow socially accepted. It makes no sense.
Cats deserve their freedom. If it’s not safe to let a cat out where you live, don’t get a fucking cat. They need an escape from your bullshit.
No, they decimate local bird population which are already in danger due to human development and pollution. In a perfect world where human factor was of no concern this wouldn’t be as controversial of a take.
Pft! You don’t seriously still believe in birds?!? My cat caught a tooth fairy the other day. Lol
Is this funny or just an excuse for Lemmy to get vocal and preachy
My Nextdoor app = 1000 I lost my cat posts daily.
I lost my cat for a week once but he wasn’t an outdoor cat, he just snuck past as I was coming home in the dark once. It was so difficult to try to explain to people that no, he is not an outside cat, and please please help me get him back home because he doesn’t know how to get home. So many people in the neighbourhood saw him but they just assumed he was an outdoor cat and didn’t bother.
Thankfully I found him after many nights of going out to search for him, but I really can’t imagine people would’ve reacted the same to a lost dog.
This was like 15 years ago but I’m still in the habit of opening my door foot first now to make sure I push any curious kitties back before I walk in.
I thought this happened to me once, and spent several hours looking around the neighborhood just to discover it was still inside. I would have sworn on my life there was no space left unchecked that could physically fit a cat.
This happened and our cat was actually in the space between the screen door and the exterior door. Also sleeping in the closet
I had a idea of how to stop them but my wife wouldn’t let me.
Respond with a picture of a coyote, bobcat, mountain lion, great horned owl or other predator with the caption, “Thank you for dinner, it was delicious.”
I have a friend whose neighbour literally watched their cat get eaten by a coyote in their backyard. The friend still let her own cat out in that same neighbourhood after that happened cause "oh he just keeps getting out, we don’t know how…"🙄 Poor guy got hit by a car some months later.
Mostly it’s going to be dogs and cars
Where I live, it’s mainly coyote and raccoons.
🤣 Dead!
If you can’t or won’t let your cat outside then don’t get a cat. A zoo keeping a cat, big or small, inside with no access to outdoors would rightly be charged with animal cruelty.
Zoos don’t keep domesticated animals. The physical requirements are not the same, domestic cats are perfectly fine indoors as long as you give them any amount of stimulation. Zoos definitely don’t let their tigers out in public unattended
besides all the reasons not to, house cats that are let out are a plague on ecosystems.
Keep your kids inside too. Kids keep screeching and playing in the middle of the fucking road. Like, get out of the damn road, dumbasses. Someday, a car is gonna hit them.
Leash your pets, leash your kids. Be responsible. Smh
Also, they love to let the little monsters run around in the stores. Is it my fault I ran over one with my grocery cart in produce? No!
This gets downvoted but it hits the truth, though maybe in macaber way.
Why do we blame cats for killing wildlife while its ok for humans to pave huge pieces of land with concrete and brick or kill biodiversity with pesticides and farm equipment? Maybe humans are the problems, not cats? Or is everyone here living off the grid, does not own a car and produces their own food? Ah and if you have kids you have no argument at all.
Maybe anthropogenic ecological change isn’t merely a thought-terminating excuse for all of it’s subordinate or constituent problems.
