The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
First, they need to find better things to worry about. pressing this is exactly how you end up with regrettable relationships. Second, ignore the gender. Treat women like people. If a situation comes up, like someone makes a scene at the front of a line you are both in, strike up a conversation about that. See where it goes. Lasting things occur organically. That being said, “she’s hot and I want to be inside her” is not a good enough reason to strike up a conversation with someone. Appreciate the sight but don’t try to capitalize on it.
Not putting some special stigma on it makes it less uncomfortable for both of you, and perhaps somewhat ironically, a little more likely that you do eventually get to be inside of her.
The unsatisfying answer: you’re both a little bit right.
You’re correct that times have changed somewhat. But I think it’s overkill to say that “approaching women at all unless you have business with them is disrespectful and borderline harassment”.
Of course, context matters a lot. Don’t bother women at their jobs, the bank is not a lady zoo. But in a social situation where you would expect to meet other people, it’s fine to strike up a conversation with strangers or even ask them out.
However, by your own admission you don’t get out much. So I’m assuming you don’t get a lot of situations like bars or parties where this would happen. So I would try networking in your community, develop some hobbies, go to functions where you might meet someone in this manner.
As usual, the nuanced answer that doesn’t oversimplify the complexities is the best one. Good answer.
I bet women 30-40 years ago would have loved to see this answer too. It’s a good thing that the world has changed in this regard.
OP already accounted for social situations where you would expect to meet people, though, and his parents seem to think that he should be approaching people in other situations—like in a store, or on the street. I’d be very cautious about that.
Yeah, I specifically mentioned to my parents seeing an attractive employee stocking shelves in the grocery store, and they said that I should have approached her. She was clearly busy when I passed by her. I just kept my distance and casually thought, “Wow, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I’ll definitely find one eventually, in a more appropriate social setting.”
Not once did it cross my mind to strike up a conversation with a busy employee, but they insisted that I should have. In my mind, the fact that it’s easy to find women that I find attractive is proof that I don’t need to go out of my way for one. Attraction is not a quick time event; to me, it’s a reminder of abundance, of just how many chances I have to find someone. I don’t need to do silly stunts or disrupt busy people. I just need to keep creating social opportunities for it to happen organically, and eventually it will. I think my parents saying that I have to chat up every woman that I find attractive no matter where is silly and neurotic. I believe being patient and not stressing over every “missed opportunity” is the best way to go.
Besides, this thread is proof that I’m not ready for a girlfriend in the first place. It would be great for me to practice talking to strangers casually and making some friends first. That way, I can get comfortable talking to people in general and build my confidence.
Yeah, definitely don’t bother people at work.
‘you know, you shouldn’t be in the frozen food section… because you could melt all this stuff!’
like in a store or on the street.
Well yeah, I think that’s part of what’s being said. I would say that in a store, or cafe is totally fine. On the street is a little weird, but in most public places it’s fine.
Also, if you’re ugly or poor, it’s always unwanted and disrespectful. Whether or not you’re ugly or even poor is up to them not you, so you have no way to ever know beforehand.
Women in general have made this so fucking difficult for men that it really should be mandatory for them to approach us at this point just to avoid issues.
I’m married, but worried about my sons getting in trouble for ever trying to approach a woman outside of a bar at this point, it seems the only place where asking a girl out randomly is still allowed at this point.
I do want to be sympathetic, but I have to be honest in that this seems like incel rhetoric to me.
Women are under no obligation to accept the advances of any random person in public, and framing that as a “them” problem is super disrespectful.
Nobody said they have to accept the advances. I’m saying that by restricting those advances in general, it should put the onus on women to make the advance. They can’t ask men to stop asking everywhere, then complain or be confused when men aren’t asking them out and this is something that is actively happening right now.
I dunno, this may just be my own sensibilities clouding reality, but I don’t think the “onus” should be on anyone.
Men are more and more frequently getting in trouble for even just asking, which means they need to stop entirely or risk getting in trouble.
Either women take responsibility for asking the men out, or accept that they’re not going to get asked out except by assholes who ignore the risks and are statistically upsetting a lot of women before they succeed.
Totally disagree on so many points. Women haven’t made things difficult, if anything men (historically) have done so because women haven’t been given a choice.
But the narrative that if you’re ugly or poor anything you do is unwanted is just not true. It’s an idea pushed by those in their parents basement justifying why they don’t have a girlfriend.
Teach your son that no means no, and when an uncomfortable woman might mean “no” without saying it, and he’ll be fine. Respect for the wishes of others takes care of 99.9999% of any trouble.
You’re just plain wrong. I’ve seen men yelled at for asking politely in “acceptable” social situations.
You can pretend it’s not happening, but that doesn’t change the fact that it occurs regularly.
The problem isn’t that No isn’t being respected, it’s that women are getting offended at even being asked.
If someone yelled about asking politely in an acceptable social situation, then they were wrong. That is not normal. It’s certainly not a regular occurrence.
That being said, given your prior comment, which just screams “incel, mgtow, etc”, I’m gonna go ahead and doubt you saw what you say you did.
It is a regular occurrence. Regular enough that it’s been reflected in popular media for decades. They even make entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
Are you honestly so naive that you think those initial rejections don’t happen in real life? Everyone saw them at high school, and everyone saw them even more on social media when said girl spreads it around to cyberbully the boy even more. It’s been more than 20 years since I was at high school, and even when we didn’t have cellphones that shit still happened, and it didn’t stop at University either.
So your examples are “things that happened to me in high school”, and “movies which are obviously real”?
Again I’m going to have to ask you to leave your basement and interact with real people. You are wrong.
Do you think highschool isn’t real?
We aren’t talking about 40 year olds dating here grandm.
Anyone, of either gender, would react negatively to someone interacting with them with the energy and perspective you’re displaying here.
If you think that type of reaction is common, I suggest looking at the common denominator.
What the fuck does my energy level have to do with anything.
I’ve never had to ask a girl out in my life, I’ve been married to only my second relationship for more than half my life, and both ladies approached me.
If you have to ask what your energy/demeanor has to do with women being comfortable with you, you should probably be quiet on this subject.
Or maybe you should stop, because you’re making about as much sense as a potato.
I agree. But the thing with women… Oh, I wish you could visit the post-Soviet countries. Especially Belarus, Russia, Ukraine… You would be amazed by what’s there.
Mr. Tate is that you?
Creepy
Oh and what’s there, subservient “trad wives”? Get out of your basement and stop blaming others for your problems.
Are you talking to me??? Let’s start with the fact that I am a woman. And what do you mean by “traditional women”?
How have women made it difficult for men?
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn’t acceptable in so many situations that it’s no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
Now men who want a relationship can essentially only find one by either being an asshole and asking when they shouldn’t, or using a dating app which is a massive waste of men’s time.
How is it unsafe for a man to approach a woman in a social situation?
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” —Margaret Atwood
I think the guy you’re responding to is well down the path of believing that it’s “unsafe” to be laughed at.
And you’re so far down a path that you think getting laughed at is an acceptable response to someone asking you out.
Which one is more toxic?
I don’t think laughing at someone is an acceptable response to any person being respectful to another person, and your assumption that I am saying that from my comment shows more about you than me.
Anyone who would laugh at another person just because of how they look or how much money they appear to have is a flawed, unkind person.
Anyone who approaches another person and doesn’t respect if they set physical or verbal boundaries showing they don’t want to be approached is also flawed and either socially unaware/challenged or themselves unkind. And sometimes an easy way to get one of those people to go away is to laugh at them.
It’s unlikely for a cold approach to anyone asking for a date to be successful. Unlike 80 years ago, people aren’t looking for their first romantic connection to turn into life-long marriage; they actually want to have an established rapport with a person before the first date. So if someone just asks another person out with no lead up, or in certain settings, sometimes that will be so disconnected from social realities as to be absurd.
Anyway, regardless of the social intricacies of appropriate places to approach and/or ask out another, believing that women (or men) are a monolith who all will react the same way in a given situation is out of touch, disrespectful, and points to a lot of deep-seated sexism. I hope you can work that out before you pass it onto your son or he’s likely to have a much harder time finding a relationship.
I get the feeling old mate here does not find himself in actual social situations with women very often.
I’m married
That poor woman.
This is Ask Lemmy not Ask Incels.
That sounds like some incel shit right there. But since you said you’re married I’m forced to assume that you came by your misogyny honest?
Let’s not attribute this to all women. This is both imposed and from the consumer culture of the patriarchal system. Less often, when it is radical feminism - here it is simply hatred of a man simply because he is a man… I am a girl, and I often see radical feminism… Especially in the post-Soviet space… It’s a wild horror… Especially those raised by mercantile princesses… If I were relaxing in a bar, I definitely wouldn’t want to see a man I didn’t know at that time. Why do you need parks, cafeterias, libraries and just the embankment?
You just made it worse, you’re saying that there’s nowhere a man can ask safely.
Like I said, it should be mandatory for women to be the one to approach at this point.
"it should be mandatory for women to "
Is a wild thing to put in absolutely any sentence.
Why?
It’s mandatory for all men to register for the selective service system in the US, and women don’t have to.
Sometimes things be like that.
I also disagree with conscription. But even if you think it’s a good idea, you’re equating a national service requirement to mandating women speak to men (presumably many of whom they have no interest in). This is just getting wilder and wilder.
What? who suggested women initiate dating conversations with men they have no interest in?
When I say women should have to approach men, I mean that men should not ask, and women should do the asking if they are interested to avoid any issues with women not wanting to be approached. Why the fuck would it mean anything else?
Where did I say that? There are drunk people in the bar, and they don’t always want to meet you. Yes, there are those who are only thirsty for acquaintances, but often they themselves will take the initiative. I suggested a list - cafes, parks, embankments, etc. It’s not always pleasant to talk to people who have been drinking, especially when it’s not part of the group.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers, you could get a positive response, but it’s equally likely that a women (or even a group) will start yelling at you for doing so.
That’s what I’m saying about nowhere to ask safely. Some women will be totally fine with being approached, and others will not, but there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
We need to bring back the whole gay handkerchief system and adapt it to the whole population, If everyone wore an accessory or object that indicates your willingness(or not) to be approached it would make the whole situation 100% better. Like a stoplight party, but all the time and with slightly less impact on your whole wardrobe.
there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
Ah, you’re getting to a challenge that women have faced forever: “If I reject this man, will he decide to attack or kill me?” (Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6)
Or just in general the concept that’s been named “Schrodingers Rapist.”
It would be a whole lot safer for many people if there was an automatic way to see into someone’s soul to know what they are like and what they are capable of. Are they a rapist? Do they have the potential to be? Will they reject me violently? Will they publicly humiliate me?
None of us can know those things. The best we can do is to try to establish strong social skills and pattern recognition, and work to avoid the situations that put us in danger (whether physical, social, or emotional). It’s hard and there’s no silver bullet.
While you want to put the onus on women to minimize the risk of a man being publicly humiliated, you’re ignoring the realities that women are dealing with the exact same kind of uncertainties (except statistically speaking, with much worse outcomes). There isn’t an easy answer here and it’s not one that falls on just one gender to resolve.
Im not ignoring the problem women have at all, I’m suggesting that if they want men to stop asking, they take the onus upon themselves to initiate.
You’re the one blaming men as being rapists here, not me. Maybe go talk to someone, you clearly have issues.
What the hell is this exaggeration? You just go and exaggerate everything!
If you need a meeting party, go ahead and organize one. But it is logical that no one will give out a phone number during social networks! It is not 90 or 00 (depending on the level of development of the country). After all, everyone has the right to refuse an acquaintance! It is not an obligation. But to answer your question, a small conversation is quite enough. And during the conversation you will understand whether there is any sense.
Gay, ok. So he’s just looking for a girlfriend, not a girlfriend. (Fucking English… 1 friend, 2 relationships) Why then meet on the street? There are plenty of different fan fiction sites, plenty of groups on themes where you can find people who are quite tolerant of gays and lesbians. You apparently have no idea what it’s like in other countries… Today the easiest way to meet someone is the Internet. And not the street. After all, many do not accept people who violate their personal space. I won’t even mention those who already have a developed culture of “man = rapist”… It’s generally difficult to understand what some individuals have brought women…
And damn, what’s so strange about embankments??? You know, there are some in Europe - by the river! Where there is a bench or people just stroll… It feels like you never left the house…
Your reading comprehension is very low. You should work on that before arguing with people. When I suggested the handkerchief system, the word gay was indicating a specific system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handkerchief_code) that had previously existed that you clearly are not aware of, which is made clear by the fact that I said it should be adapted to the whole population.
Yelling at people in your second language after not understanding the arguments being made is not helpful.
deleted by creator
I disagree. Although I’m taken I was at a bar hanging with friends and, when I was getting a drink alone, a gal at the bar was totally giving me the “hit on me” eyes.
10 years ago I wouldn’t have seen it or acknowledged it, now that I’ve built more confidence with women I see it more often. That and, anecdotally, when you’re in a relationship women seem to come at you more often.
That makes it worse.
men* have made this so fucking difficult
for menFTFY
deleted by creator
Sexist comment.
Woman here: I’m not annoyed if a person I don’t know talks to me, as long as a) they don’t interrupt something I’m doing to have conversation and b) they read my body language and fuck off again the moment it’s clear I’m not interested. But asking me questions when I have my headphones in to talk about inane shit while I roll my eyes? Nah.
It is an important skill and confidence booster to approach people in general in public. If you are uncomfortable with women, then start with men.
If that is still uncomfortable, then that means you are uncomfortable to talking with strangers in general. Unfortunately, experience is the only way to combat this. Start small with chit chat in lines, compliment people on their shoes, etc.
Instructions unclear, now paying for a gay wedding.
It’s pretty clear what the consensus is here. Yes, talk with women. You can even (politely) hit on women you fancy. Based on your statement about yourself it’s unlikely you would be pushy and threatening if she said no, but still, just understand when to stop.
Next question is how to get there from where you are. You’re scared you would be seen as a threat, harassing women just by talking to them out of the blue. So you doubtless have little experience talking with women. That’s where you are.
I see two possible paths to take. Which one is right depends on why you feel that way. If it’s an emotional issue, like if you (for instance) start shaking and sweating at the thought of walking up to a woman and introducing yourself, then maybe start by talking with a therapist. They can be really helpful. On the other hand if you are just nervous because you don’t know how to talk with a woman then look into learning how to make small talk. It’s actually a skill. It’s something you can learn. And once you have learned it and practiced it enough that you are comfortable with it, then approaching and talking with a woman is just about starting and having a conversation. You can even practice with guys if it makes you more comfortable. A quick google search produces a bunch of good ideas on how to start.
Now you have homework. Learn how to carry a conversation. Learn to make people feel comfortable around you. Learn to actually be interested in other people. It shows and it makes a difference.
EDIT: In a reply to another comment you mentioned severe violence in your childhood and the resultant fear as a major deterrent in approaching people. That’s definitely something to see a therapist about. You can work through stuff like that in time. And you’ll be amazed how much more free you feel once you have.
Both of you are right. Both are wrong.
My advice, if you can safely take a shot, do it. Fortune favors the bold, not the stupid. Be polite, be flirty, pay attention to their body language, don’t try hard to turn a no into a yes, don’t worry about rejection.
Sure you can do dating apps or try meeting people through hobbies, but cold approaching people you like can turn out as good as it can be nerve wracking.
This is the answer. You can absolutely approach a woman if you are interested in her, just be respectful and polite about it. I’m a woman who has been both rudely approached and politely approached.
Scenario 1- bad experience: I was at a show seeing some metal bands I really liked. I was wearing a shirt with a local band that was big in the 80s 90s. The band is bit niche, not hugely known to the general public. So I’m minding my own business waiting to buy a drink, and this guy approaches me, points to my boobs and says “Do you even know who that band is?” I told him “yes, I’m a huge fan and have been listening to them for years.” That should have been the end of it, but then he tells me “oh I’m only asking since my niece has been wearing my old band shirts because they look cool”. Ok bud. There was no reason to tell me this. He was not approaching other men and asking them this same question. He was belittling me, in order to get me to talk to him. Which is a common tactic around men who don’t respect women as people (see Dennis Reynolds from it’s always sunny)
Scenario 2 - positive experience: Again, at a metal concert. I’m there with my husband and his bff. I was there to see the headliner, they were there to see the band before. My husband wasn’t feeling great all day, and his friend had to work early the next day, so they left and I stayed to watch the headlining band. I noticed this group of guys, especially one, sort of looking at me every once and a while, but I ignored it and watched the band. Once the show was over, I left and was waiting at the bus stop. The same group of guys approached me, and one that was looking at me during the show says “hi, my name is ____. I’m sorry to bother you, but I just wanted to introduce myself since I couldn’t help looking at you during the show. I don’t want to be a creep but I think you’re beautiful, would you like to grab a drink with me and my friends?” So I thanked him, and said I would have to pass, but hoped they all had a fun night". The they left, I got on the bus, felt safe and not bothered. This man complimented me in a respectful way and that was the end of it.
Hope that helps!
If you dont ask, the answer is automatically “No” .
“”“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott" - ZoomBoingDing
Learning how to engage and socialize with people of both sexes is a necessary skill. As long as your not being a toxic mess in front of them, you’re fine.
I’ll just say you probably shouldn’t take dating advice from people who haven’t done any dating for the last 30-40 years. The world has most certainly changed.
The world has changed, but this particular piece of advice is timeless. I approach people I want to talk to in real life every day, multiple times a day. No one is ever offended by it, literally ever. The reason women get offended over men approaching is because they do this thing where they approach the woman as an object, leading with their sexual desire, as if the woman is obligated to satisfy them simply because the man feels attracted. It’s a recipe for disaster.
Listen, men, there’s nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to a woman. But approach her as a human being first. Be considerate of how she’s feeling, pay attention to her boundaries, and be respectful. Of course, at some point, you need to express your interest, and it’s better to be transparent about that rather than creepy. If you are motivated by sexual interest, her intuition will tell her that long before you think it will, so no sense in hiding it. But as a general rule, never outpace the level of reciprocation she’s given you.
That means, don’t walk up to a stranger who isn’t making eye contact with you and tell her you want to fuck her. Don’t even ask for her number. First, make eye contact. If she makes eye contact back, you can proceed to the next step. Say hi. If she says hi back, you can introduce yourself. If she reciprocates by introducing herself, you can ask a question or tell her something. After you’ve had a conversation, you can ask for her number, or suggest a date. But take it one step at a time. If you take two steps ahead and she hasn’t reciprocated, that’s when you’re gonna get into trouble. If she stops reciprocating, stop escalating. If she expresses a boundary or discomfort, thank her for letting you know, and back off.
TLDR; approach! But slow the fuck down and pay attention to if she’s comfortable and reciprocating. Respect her boundaries. You honestly won’t go wrong with that approach.
I’ve approached about 800 women a year, for the past 4 years and the worst thing that’s happened is that my ego got a little bit hurt a few times when they said no thank you. Zero drama, zero anger, zero cancellation. And I’m just an average looking ginger dude.
People are allowed to speak to one another in public. Just be respectful of people’s cues, and that goes for people of all genders.
I disagree. While certainly some things differ between generations, human nature is still the same and the world in many regards isn’t all that different from 40 years ago.
I don’t know OP’s parents so I can’t speak to them specifically, but I wouldn’t automatically discount someone’s opinion just because they’re a couple decades older.
The process of “courtship”, if you want to call it that, is definitely something that has changed dramatically between generations.
Your parents never had to bother with things like a woman specifying a time to “debut”, meeting with suitors under the supervision of an elder, the taboo of an unmarried couple being alone before marriage, the obligation for a woman’s family to put together a dowry, etc.
I mean, women in most of the west have only had political agency for just shy of 100 years, and even less than that as “equal” members of the workforce. Social dynamics have radically changed over the past several generations, and are continuing to change even now.
There was some indeterminate point in western society when advice like “You know what would really win her over? Duel her most eligible suitor” universally stopped being good advice, and the same is happening today with many of the dating strategies our parents grew up with.
Removed by mod
Just learn to talk to all people in social situations, and don’t make it transactional.
The right people will just drop into your life naturally.
Great advice. The bit about it not being transactional is very important. Go live your life, chat with everyone to connect to other human beings.
I think you have a point, but also you’ve cranked that point to 11. Possibly 12.
Like yes, women can be really infuriated by how often they get hit on. I know the main reason my wife wanted a stereotypical wedding ring with a single diamond was that “it’ll keep the flies away”
But also… people interact with you in public. It’s like… a property of public spaces. Indeed talking to my wife in a public space is how we met.
The way you make it sound from your description would be that asking some woman directions would be a social fopah. Hell, where does just “having a conversation” land for you then? If you leave without asking for a number, is it different?
There’s a difference between idle chit chat and approaching like Johnny Bravo.
Faux pas, hehe never seen it as fopah
I gave up because I was typing on my phone.
I don’t mind if a man initiates a conversation with me. I don’t mind if anyone initiates a conversation with me. I only mind when I use words like, “no, thank you”, and they persist. Listen to the word NO.
I think there’s a lot of nuance that both sides of this are missing. There’s a lot of middle ground between not talking to women out in the world at all, and going up to random girls and saying "nice shoes, wanna fuck?
You absolutely can approach people, strike up a conversation, maybe even hit it off and spin it into a friendship or romantic relationship.
I’m far from the guy to tell someone how to do that and try to pick apart the it’s and outs of what makes some things ok and others not, but it is something that absolutely can be done.
“nice shoes, wanna fuck?”
Gotta say, if you are a bit spicy and they are too, if your shirt matches their shoes this might result in a date.
This thread is not meant for autistic people.
“Yes you can talk to women in public, but also not flirt with them even though that’s the obvious context of the post, but also there are some public places you can flirt with them that are somehow different from the other public places, and also it’s fine in the places where it isn’t.”
I’ve come to the conclusion from this thread that the answer lies somewhere near “actually some women hate it and some women don’t, and since the only way to find out which is which is by stepping on the landmine, you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no.”
And in all honesty, yeah fuck it, I’m gonna. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but being that the other option is “die alone and get eaten by my cats” I think it’s just going to have to happen.
you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no.
Yeah that’s about all you can do in reality.
Just remember not to be persistent if it feels off immediately, do not violate anyone’s space more than necessary (do not go for physical contact as a rule of thumb, strike up a conversation instead, if unsure of social rules) and most importantly, listen to them and try your best to take the hint if they can’t find a way to be direct and instead attempt to politely fend you off.
But there are a lot of social rules and cues everyone should be aware of, which definitely makes it hard for those unable to feel them. It doesn’t mean you can’t try your darnest though. Intent is important, so as long as you mean no harm, and do not break the obvious rules of personal space and no is no, nothing irreversible will happen.
It is and will be awkward, but it often is for us too who can sense and understand (at least most of) the “rules”. That’s just being human.
The worst is if you overthink it. Just figure if it’s appropriate and follow some sensible rules of thumb if it’s hard to sense the appropriateness, and then be the awkward clumsy you that most of everyone is in context like this.
Even if you radiate charm, are a natural with words and gestures, are in perfect harmony with the ambiguous rules of social interactions etc, you’re bound to misread people and situations sooner rather than later, and that’s just something that happens.
Being human is… very human. That is, awkward and clumsy and often disappointing. The upside is that it’s also surprising, exciting, invigorating and so full of possibilities and such joy, if you just manage to get past the also very human aversion to any potential awkwardness or disappointments.
This became a weird rant. But as someone with adhd and some weird natural drive for other humans that I haven’t been able to understand myself, I do often fail to think things through and approach people without much thinking. I have the benefit of naturally not overthinking it until after the fact. The world has never ended and I’ve lived a colorful, socially rich life, and for whatever it’s worth, I’ve not ended up being perceived as a creep or a threat or whatever, at least not widely so. So that tells me it’s pretty hard to cause any real damage to yourself or others as long as you’re respectful, aware of the dynamic and even if not fully aware of the social cues and rules, follow a set of your own rules of thumb that you find result in socially acceptable behaviour.
Don’t let the fear of unknown or being ridiculed or whatever block you from having meaningful social interactions. Even the most charismatic or naturally social and talkative of us end up in awkward situations and sometimes end up disappointed or ashamed for reading the cues wrong. Stuff happens. That’s life. For everyone.
But just try and be mindful of the place, the time, the surroundings, and do not violate anyone’s personal space more than necessary, and take no as an answer immediately if even hinted at. Might sound like even that’s a lot, but in time, with practice, as with just about everything else we do, these things will start coming naturally and built in in our everyday goings on.
Trust in yourself if you mean no harm. That’s about it. No one can fault someone with good intentions and respectful manners, if they keep their space and don’t persist when told or hinted no. You might get ashamed or even shocked for how wrong you read stuff, but again, that happens to everyone, even if rarely. We are all humans, and there’s a baseline level of awkwardness and inability to really read anyone’s mind that comes with the territory. So just try and trust yourself in that.
Let me prephase this by saying that I have never been officially diagnosed but there’s a good chance that I’m in the spectrum.
This is my philosophy on the matter: you won’t find a girlfriend talking to a random person just because of their looks, so if it was a guy, would you talk to them? If the answer is no then I won’t. For example, pretty girl on the bus, I wouldn’t talk to a pretty guy on the bus so I don’t; Pretty girl talking about something I have an interest in, or similar, I might talk to a pretty guy doing that about our common interest so I feel it’s okay. That being said I’m not much for talking to random strangers in person unless we’re in a social gathering, and I would feel very uncomfortable itlf a random person came to talk to me out of the blue, so even though all that I said above there’s a 99% chance I won’t talk to a random person anyways.
I’m really impressed by how level headed everyone is here, to be honest.
Makes me think if I’m autistic
Do you ever make small talk with men with whom “you don’t have business?”
I’m assuming yes, you probably do. Speaking with women is the same, just be sure to pick up on cues if they don’t want to speak. In fact, I’d advise you to practice by making small talk with everyone you can, with no agenda, and pay attention to their cues.
Actually, I don’t. I am far more afraid of talking to men. All of the male family members I grew up around were violent. I was punched or choked as a kid if I did anything to offend them. And so, I learned to never do anything that could possibly provoke them for fear of what would happen to me. My mother also sometimes used corporal punishment on me, so I also learned to expect violence from women if they become angry.
So it seems like I have a general fear of offending people because, besides hurting others emotionally, I always expect violence to follow. The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anyone.
And this is why I asked this question. I am now self-aware of the fact that I have a completely distorted hyper-paranoid mental model of social dynamics where negative reactions have nuclear consequences and must be avoided at all costs. At the same time, I know that most of my parents’ takes are pretty bad, but there is an occasional kernel of truth in what they say. I thought that this was likely to be one of those situations, so I wanted to see if others could help point out the nuance.
So far, I have lived my entire life under the fear of violence. It prevented countless friendships and social interactions from ever happening. I avoided everything bad at the cost of everything good, and it left me with nothing. That prevented me from learning a lot of common sense social norms, like when small talk is even appropriate. I just assume that it never is, and people would rather stare at their phones than ever talk to a stranger. I guess I’m wrong about that.
That’s a lot to process and unlearn tbh. I honestly wouldn’t worry about romantic or flirting interactions at this stage and maybe just practice lower stakes social interaction, yes like small talk. Like anything, conversation takes practice and you get better at it the more you do it. But the reality is, you can’t go into a situation expecting perfection. You will say something awkward or embarrassing at some point because that’s just human nature. We all have. Coping with that sort of thing is a necessary experience and skill. Maybe you could try going to an event geared for socializing and just challenge yourself to have two conversations, with no goal in mind. I think I would get used to casual interactions before attempting to figure out romantic ones.
The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anymore.
I assume you recognize that isn’t a tenable position long term. If you’re looking to start growing from that point I have a suggestion.
This isn’t quite clear and definite, but there can be a small social gift you give to people when you have a small problem that they can easily solve. It takes a fair amount of time to develop this to know the boundaries and limits, but I’ll give you an easy one: Ask for the time
Just about any random stranger, when you are both at a location for a clearly legitimate reason (bus stop, grocery store, post office, etc), will give you the time when asked. This isn’t something to do when at 2AM outside a bar. Needing the time is a benign problem that everyone has had at one time in their lives, and its something nearly everyone in modern society can solve. The interaction is so easy its rote. Keep your distance and catch their attention (if they aren’t clearly focused on something else):
You: Excuse me, my phone died. Do you have the time?
Them: (Possibly sizing you up) Uhh, its 5:37
You: Thank you, I appreciate it.
Then you walk away. Practice that with people around until it doesn’t feel uncomfortable.
Oh nooooo
So sorry those losers were not just losers but also abusers (no offense to good memories you have or good parts of them, if any, just covering my bases here b/c life’s complicated)
Would you like to try to build back some confidence here? Elderly folks can be so very sweet (and/or lonely). Next time you’re at a crosswalk and see someone who couldn’t even suddenly dive at you fast enough to make physical contact, you could broach a conversation.
stare at their phones
Maybe we’d rather, but it’s kinda killing us at least in a sense
Published today: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/on-the-death-of-daydreaming
tl;dr interrupting me when I’m on my phone is probably chill (maybe I’ll thank you, or excuse myself if I’m sending a work email/thing)
“Ninja” edit: before folks come @ me for the phone interruption thing (for good reason), mainly advocating for building up those small talk skills that abusers hampered through NO fault of your own
Wow, I’m sorry for the abuse that’s led you to the level of fear you live in. Of course it’s going to be hard for you to start any kind of connection with someone who might have a potential romantic component if you aren’t able to connect to people who don’t have that potential.
If you’re looking for broader advice, I’d recommend getting into some social groups for hobbies or business-type things. Board gaming, hiking, maker space, Toastmasters, cons; anything that gets you out of the house and meeting people.
Once in those groups, start socializing in general. Get more comfortable meeting people and establishing friendships. Realize that not everyone you meet will respond with violence and there are better people out there.
You won’t frequently get far if you aren’t in social settings where people are trying to meet other people; 95+% of the time any interaction like that is likely to be a one-off. But if you’re confident and friendly, sometimes it’s not. It is NOT predatory to still talk to people outside of those settings, but if you only talk to people you’re physically attracted to then it’s borderline weird and could be a bit predatory.
As you build the skill of talking to anyone and everyone, you’ll also develop better communication skills and more confidence (which, btw, happens to be one of the most attractive traits). And you might just find in the process of doing so that only talking to people you find physically attractive upfront isn’t the best way to meet a potential partner.
I’m genuinely sorry your family hasn’t helped you learn these skills and has actively undermined you in a way that makes it more difficult. Whether it’s a romantic interest, friendships, or your career, working on these skills will help you become a better person.
It’s ok to take up space. You don’t have to become invisible in order to be around people. Assume others know they’ll be around people in public and that they’re comparing you against the assholes on the subway or the screaming, entitled weirdo who is harassing employees. Since I get the impression you don’t act like that, no one is paying much mind to what you’re doing.
Not to pathologize everything, but I’ve found a lot of help in therapy to deal with past experiences, hang ups I’ve had that I didn’t understand, and things I didn’t like that I couldn’t unlearn on my own. Maybe that’s something that could help you be more content in your interactions with people?
My advice on effective therapy: There are bad therapists out there. Find a therapist you click with. There’s evidence that shows the relationship you have with your therapist is the highest indicator of success. So if you don’t jive with them during the first contact (sometimes that’s a phone call to ask questions before committing, sometimes it’s the first session), find another therapist.
I’d much rather chat with a stranger than stare at my phone while waiting around in public. Connecting with strangers over some simple things can be surprisingly heart warming in an increasingly isolating world. Even just chatting about a good deal on soup or enjoying recent sunshine makes my day a little bit better. If you chose to chat with me, my day would be better.
The amount of times I’ve been in a pleasant conversation with a dude and when it becomes apparent I’m not available, they just immediately stop talking to me. Like… what? It’s abrupt, obvious, and super shitty to do to someone. And for the readers making assumptions about the scenarios–this wasn’t in a bar or a social event. It’s just random places in public where two people might make small talk.
I hope everyone takes your advice. Just talk to people to talk to people, without a transactional goal. Worst case scenario, you practice your conversation skills. Best case, you meet cool people and sometimes those people might want to meet up again or start texting etc. Boom a new friend that could be a relationship if you both are into it. Or you can just collect cool friends.
Disclaimer: This is for relationships and not just people to fuck. Go to places where other people are looking for that if you want to speed run fucking (bars, clubs, mixers, anime cons, etc.), which is totally fine.
Ok. But not everywhere is it accepted to have “small talk”…
I guess, but based upon his parents advice it sounds like it is where OP is.
There’s a difference between “approaching women” and “APPROACHING WOMEN.”
You should be comfortable interacting with women in any environment simply because a) they are human beings and b) they’re over 50% of the population.
You can’t go outside and just never talk to women, that’s actually creepier.
You don’t have to be trying to pick someone up to, you know, treat them like a human being and talk to them.
I can chat up an old grandma but an attractive person will make me shit my pants
That’s something you need to get over and you do that by practice. Forget the “attractive” part, focus on the “person” part.
A classic book to read:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People
Easier said than done
