Summary
According to the Telegraph, a leaked confidential Trump peace plan delivered to President Zelenskyy has caused panic in Kyiv.
The proposal would grant the U.S. half of revenues from Ukraine’s resource extraction and licensing, effectively amounting to economic colonization.
The Telegraph noted, “Trump’s demands would amount to a higher share of Ukrainian GDP than reparations imposed on Germany at the Versailles Treaty, later whittled down at the London Conference in 1921, and by the Dawes Plan in 1924.”
Simultaneously, the plan would absolve Russia for its invasion that has caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
I am so fucking embarrassed to be an American. Fuck this country and its “leaders”
Personally I’m disgusted to be in the same country as the people who approve of this. Makes me fucking sick.
As an American I’m not embarrassed. The whole world should have seen this coming. This country elected Trump in
2020EDIT: My mistake, Trump was elected in 2016. Americans showed you what type of time they’re on. When he lost re-election Americans tried to force his presidency. The Democrats were too weak while they had power, always trying to take the high road. If any country is still dumb enough to rely on the US for anything then they get what they get.EDIT 2: spell check
And by “high road” you mean the one paved by donor money, not the morally high road.
Yes thats the one. I wasn’t clear but you are right.
The Democrats were too weak while they had power
Don’t you think this attitude is the reason why you’re in this mess? Wanting a strong ruler rather than having politicians that follow the law and try to provide good government. If the Democrats were “strong” then you’d have a Democrat strongman and you’d still be in the same mess.
The Dems are weak. And it’s not because they follow the law because they don’t, just look at that NY City mayor. They follow the money, look at Pelosi. They aren’t a party for the common person but the loudest who might net them the most money. Mostly, they’re just like Republicans in the way they cling to power until their death. How many of them have died in power due to old age instead of stepping aside to let the young legislate the world they’re inheriting? They try to follow agreed upon rules, not laws, knowing the other party won’t follow those rules.
As an example, Obama had the opportunity to appoint 2 judges to the Supreme Court. Instead of appointing a judge after Scalia died he let the next president decide arrogantly thinking it would be Clinton. He also believe senator Graham when he stated that presidents shouldn’t appoint judges during election year. Everyone with a brain knew that was bullshit! You have the power to appoint judges so do it! The second SC judge he could have appointed would replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg but that also didn’t happen because she, a dem, couldn’t let go of power and retire. Instead she dies in office during Trump’s first term. That’s the term where he appoints a SC judge during an election year and Graham forgets what he said 4 years earlier.
Now where would we be now if Obama appointed 2 more judges before his term ended? Imagine what the Supreme Court would look like if Obama called Graham’s BS and RBG gave up power and retired like the old lady she was? It’s shit like this that convinces me that the Democratic Party is weak.
In a democracy you should strive for having strong people and weak politicians that do as the people want.
If you’re striving for having strongmen so you don’t have to do anything yourself, then you are being weak. And that’s why the US has gotten to be what it’s become: weak and lazy people looking for someone else to solve all of your problems. This is why Trump’s message of “vote fore me and you won’t need to vote ever again” resonates. You want someone to rule over you and figure out everything for you. This made the US ripe for a fascist takeover.
Even now you’re whining about someone else not solving your problems for you. Didn’t vote? That’s the democrats fault. To cowardly to discuss politics with your family? That’s the democrats fault.
In the end, you’re aligned with the fascists in your hatred of the opposition. It’s easier for you to sit back and complain about the opposition than to grow a spine and support the opposition regardless of what your family, peer group, or anyone else will think about for doing so.
Dude stop trying to put words in my mouth. I didn’t say any of that. I already explained why I thought the democrats were weak and it wasn’t for anything you just said. They are weak because they were trying to play by rules the other team clearly didn’t play by, they’re weak because they arrogantly thought they could keep power beyond their limit, they are weak because they stand for trends instead of standing with the people who vote for them and listening to their real problems. I can’t tell you how many times the democrats would come to my community begging for votes and making promises only to walk back on those promises and never come back until the next election promising to do it then.
I never said anything about anyone ruling over me or making decisions for me. I’ve never whined about anyone else not solving my problems. Where did you even get that? I never even mentioned discussing politics with family, which I do, so why did you just make up more shit to throw against me.
And finally you claim I’m aligned with fascist using the evidence you literally just made up. You are part of the problem. You don’t want to accept any criticism on the democrats but instead make up lies about what you claim I said or what you interpret. You don’t listen but you’ll use lies to discredit and silence me because I don’t agree with you.
Everything in that post you claimed I said or that I represent is not true. Stop making shit up.
Got to admit, other guy had me till you said this. Props, man, you have an honestly better point.
Problem is, this isn’t about strong or weak. This is about numbers. Too many people in the US are literally just hiding that they’re racist by being among like-minded bigots and not traveling, and then agreeing when wealthy assholes tell them their kids don’t need good education.
Fact is, this proved something. Something scary. Those who remember history cannot stop it from repeating if evil also remembers history, which is impossible to prevent entirely.
In other words, we have no guarantees. We never did. We’re fucking doomed, we always were. We are all going to die and there was never a goddamn thing anyone could do about it.
Apathy is the big reason for this. About 1/3 of the eligible voters didn’t bother to vote. And Trump gained support among black and hispanic voters. Ignorance and apathy were the big drivers of this. And ignorance stems from people too apathetic to learn anything.
And no, democracy is never guaranteed. Some pretty words written by slave owners over a hundred years ago was never going to guarantee democracy. It’s just paper. What makes democracy survive is people making an effort to keep it going generation after generation. American exceptionalism created a false belief that the US couldn’t be anything other than a democracy. But despite all the chest thumping about freedom and democracy from Americans, it turns out not enough people were willing to make an effort to learn who they were voting for or in many cases even to bother voting at all. That was all that was needed, but it was too much for Americans to bother doing.
There are things Americans can be doing right now, but this Canadian thinks the USA has become a nation that’s centered greed and apathy rather than a country of freedom and democracy. I’d be happy if Americans could prove me wrong by fighting back in any way they could, but it looks to me the US lacks the will to save itself.
You don’t understand. You know why 1997-2001 was a period of optimism? We thought we were finally SAFE, geopolitically-speaking.
Now - in the aftermath of 9//1, 2008 and two Trump administrations, we are convinced we will NEVER be geopolitically safe.
People do not have children if they do not have a sense (even an illusion) of geopolitical safety. When people literally have geopolitical PTSD from all this, and cannot trust ANY government, ANY corporation, ANY religion, ANY ideology, when NOTHING is viewed as a way to de-stress yourself…
We have a serious problem. Expect birth rates to start plummeting ~9 months from now, because the new quote is “history repeats, even if you remember it”.
If you have 1/3 of eligible voters not voting and loyal voters switching up on you then whose fault is that? You are blaming those voters who didn’t vote for who you wanted then to vote for. Why haven’t you looked at the party and ask why their message didn’t resonate or why they didn’t convince those people to vote for the Dems? The Democrats failed. They will continue to fail unless they figure out why they aren’t connecting to voters, what voters actually want, and how to change into something good for the people, the country, and can get votes.
Don’t be embarrassed for the actions of poloticians. We only have the illusion of choice in the US. You can be embarrassed for the human race if you like. Cause “leaders” like this exist in the first place.
We absolutely had a choice
No. Not really. People were taught history. We have hindsight. Look around, nobody is saying Trump is anything less than a new Hitler. Nobody is saying Trump was elected fairly.
I’m going one step further. Trump did not win 2024. In Georgia, there is an old Jim Crow-era law that still exists. You can - if you live in Georgia right now - legally declare EVERYONE ELSE in your county inelligable to vote just by stating you view them as not fit to vote.
This was already used on 32,000 black people a pop by several people in Georgia in 2024, turning the tide of the election.
You didn’t choose Trump. Nobody except the people who have taken away a fundamental right of thousands of people chose him. They chose to destroy democracy to get what they want.
Evil is evil. It does not play by “No, I didn’t get elected, curses! I’ll get you next time, Gadg8eer!”. It plays by stealing what it cannot win fair and square.
Don’t side with evil, just recognize that this was not a bunch of zealots and bigots who did this. Trump literally found a fucking cheat code for election built into the system by people who are now either dead, senile or the last of their peers. The cheat code needs to be deactivated, and playing by the rules will get us nowhere.
Don’t be embarrassed for the actions of poloticians. We only have the illusion of choice in the US. You can be embarrassed for the human race if you like. Cause “leaders” like this exist in the first place.
Our people did this. I see the ignorance and stupidity on a daily basis. People are cheering this shit on. It’s disgraceful.
Living inside the same imaginary lines on a map doesn’t make them our people. The Russian government has more influence over such people than you or I.
Don’t be embarrassed for the actions of poloticians. We only have the illusion of choice in the US. You can be embarrassed for the human race if you like. Cause “leaders” like this exist in the first place.
Well, Europe needs to grow a pair and tell Trump to fuck off. We need to accept that he is leaving Nato, and European countries need to take it over or set up a new organisation. He can make any deal he likes with Russia; Europe and Ukraine can just tell him no and show him the true limits of his power. He cannot dictate to Europe and he is not our president.
As an American, it scares the hell out of me, but I agree with you.
They need to embargo us.
Make the US economy absolute dog shit so the GOP gets nuked in 2026. There’s enough GOP Senate seats in play to remove Trump from office in early 2027.
I really hope Europe starts making some moves.
From the moment he won the election until now we’ve seen a lot of world leaders attempting to make nice with him and appease him. It should be clear now that he cannot be appeased nor will his ego ever be satisfied. He is going to take and take and take until other countries start telling him no and laying out boundaries that they’re willing to strictly enforce if need be.
In the US, there seems to be little understanding of the situation in Europe, which can create false hope. Europe is dealing with the same shit as the US, it’s just way behind. But it’s going the same direction.
Also, Europe is not enough of a united entity. There are still national states, it’s easy to stir up nationalistic moods. And in many European countries, pro-billionaire populists and far-right parties are getting to power.
I wouldn’t say there’s no hope at all, but let’s look at the real situation.
Did you leave it intentionally vague wether you were talking about P or T? I kind of find it nice how it fits both, how similar they are.
Nah that wasn’t my intention. It’s true that they’re similar, but I’ve mostly been watching American politics.
Europe is not united enough. Lot’s of states deal with their own rise of fascism. It’s depressing.
And this is the problem with “America first.” Those who are the most selfish inevitably find themselves alone and miserable.
Leaving Nato drastically increases the chances he attacks Canada and attacking Canada will cause a civil war. 100%
Putin’s puppet doing his job well. The Orange Turd delivers garbage as usual.
Putin’s puppet
“Putin’s puppet” is the ceo of the wealthiest country in the world and the strongest army in history. You probably don’t like to hear but if there are any puppets they are most likely the 10 times weaker players
Or are easily manipulated narcissists. Trump before running for office in the first place laundered money for Russian oligarchs and an extensive and prolonged Russian based disinformation is the main reason he has the cult he does. Also key point: everything Trump has done indicates he is a coward. It doesn’t matter how strong a coward is
Trump is scum, one of the biggest on earth same as his russian counterpart. Claiming the ceo of USA is a puppet of a country 10 times weaker is ignoring the scale and capabilities of US government military.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_military_installations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disclosures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_the_United_States
Yes, I am ignoring the US military; because it is irrelevant. It’s like arguing that a man’s car can’t be stolen because he’s a heavyweight boxing champion. How many bases do you need to build before the US is immune to sabotage and subversion? How much money do you need to spend on guns before disinformation campaigns don’t work? It is not as simple as one country being weaker than another. Different countries have different capabilities depending on what they have focused on. Russia has been building it’s disinformation pipeline for a long time and has always been very good at exploiting corruption. The US is not very good at defending itself from those kinds of attacks as experts have been warning for frickin decades. This is not a video game where election interference is only targetable on nations in your level range and national strength can neatly be condensed into a single number and compared.
Or have I misunderstood your argument and your arguing that Putin has nothing to force Trump to obey him? Yet still in that argument the US military and the assassinations are still irrelevant. Trump is Putin’s puppet not because Putin is a master manipulator dangling some blackmail over Trump’s head. Putin’s an unhinged, cowardly nutjob who spends most of his time hiding in a bunker marinating in the propaganda he himself commissioned. No, it’s because Trump is a moron who accepts simple answers and lashes out at anyone who tells him he’s wrong. Trump is a stupid man smart enough to know he’s an idiot but terrified people will realise he’s an idiot. He is a weak man desperate to be recognised as a strong one. So when someone who he views as a strong man dangles the potential for their approval in front of him he wags his tail like a good little dog. The former Australian PM talked about how Trump looked at Putin with awe to the degree that it was creepy. That is why Putin worked so hard to get him elected, why Trump spends so long on phone calls with Putin and why the military might of the US has no bearing on whether or not Trump will do as Putin tells him to. Trump is also very, very willing to accept bribes in whatever form they take and shown no limits to what he is willing to sell out for those bribes.
Don’t bother. People here would rather have Putin as god-emperor than face the reality of institutional failure that got them here. Twice.
Motherfucker looks like he’s inflated to Baron Harkonnen size
Pretty sure this is just part of the “give them a terrible deal they wouldn’t agree to” strat that means Trump can say “we gave them a very good deal and they refused, Russia can do what they want”.
It’s all bullshit and always has been.
I can already see this being parroted back to me by my relatives who watch Hungarian TV stations
So basically 1939 again, with Ukraine playing Poland, and you all know who the US are playing.
Playing the role of Nazi America.
It would be a grand historical irony if the country that ultimately ensures Ukraine’s freedom from Russia ends up being Germany.
“We are here to liberate you from the Russians…and this time, we really mean it!”
Unbelievable. Every day, I’m amazed that a man I don’t even freaking know can piss me off this much on pretty much a daily basis. The man just literally has no shame, none, zero.
So a mafia protection racket?
Except for protection.
The Ukrainians started fighting before any guarantees and support started coming in from the west. They are fighting for their own self determination. Trump thinking he can just impose this is just not understanding that the Ukrainians can simply say no. And when they do, his all powerful persona will be exposed even more for the scam that it is.
Russian battleship and American president: fuck off!
It doesn’t matter if the USA promises liberation from Russia, protection for eternity and the cure for cancer… the word of the USA means less than nothing now…
Ukraine has the same chance of benefiting if they just help that poor Nigerian Prince and use the resulting reward to buy weapons
the word of the USA means less than nothing
now…
Trump is not a public servant, he is a crooked business man. He doesn’t think about making life on earth better, he thinks about ripping people off as much as he can get away with.
Now the EU should leak a report that says without USA’s guaranteed peace and NATO breaking up, chances for Russia to attack the EU are pretty much 100%, so better to tariff the USA to astronomical levels, use that money to fund the EU military and attack now before Russia has a chance to rebuild.
How is Israel paying back? Or those are donations? 🤔
Credit to Putin, it’s a good play. The only counter is for Europe to unite against both Russia and the current US government.
Theoretically possible, but unlikely unless the non-EU states also fall in line early.
deleted by creator
No, don’t Fuck the US. I dont want to pay for Trump and kins sins.
Just fuck Trump, Musk, and the republican party and its support/propaganda network.
I will gladly endorse having foreign forces enter america to arrest these traitors to humanity, to take them to the hague for trial and execution.
Too many people think that everyone in the US deserves to suffer just because 23% of us voted for the Orange Shitstain, and that’s if you believe nobody “found” him some extra votes.
Do you know how many Germans voted for Hitler’s party in 1933? It was 26.4%.
It’s because 51% of you didn’t vote against him.
More than that, the numbers I keep seeing thrown around are that Harris got 75m votes, Trump got 77m, and 90m didn’t bother voting.
As an American, we are all going to suffer and the earlier the better. Time and time again we see that the only way Trump supporters change is if they are personally affected. Thus we all need to pay in order to see change.
The reality is that the EU states are falling out.
The Telegraph noted, “Trump’s demands would amount to a higher share of Ukrainian GDP than reparations imposed on Germany at the Versailles Treaty, later whittled down at the London Conference in 1921, and by the Dawes Plan in 1924.”
This is an extraordinarily bad move.
I’m glad to see steps taken toward the war ending, but this is the sort of Big Mac diplomacy that’s just patently moronic. Trump seems to think he can just order up what he wants and it’s going to magically happen without any negative consequences.
Even if you’re a world superpower, there’s only so much you can demand of another country. The Iraq embargo, for instance, gave rise to Al Qaeda and the eventual destruction of the World Trade Towers. (And that was the SECOND attempt, after a group of terrorists tried to bomb them previously in the 90’s.)
I’m quite certain that this deal is intended to be unpalatable to Ukraine - it was cooked up by Trump and Putin after all.
Either way they win:
Ukraine takes the deal: they win; Ukraine says the deal is ridiculous and walks away: then Russia & Trump brand them as unrealistic agitants and delay for more favourable terms and extend the war.
this deal is intended to be unpalatable to Ukraine
Oh, I get that. Still pretty stupid.
The Iraq embargo, for instance, gave rise to Al Qaeda and the eventual destruction of the World Trade Towers.
This is a racist narrative that relies on the assumption that Arabs have no control over themselves and “they’re all the same”. Also relies on the false narrative that Saddam Hussein supported Al Qaeda that was promoted during the build up to the Iraq War.
The reality is that Al Qaeda were enemies of Saddam Hussein, because not all Arabs are the same person. And a psychopath like Saddam Hussein doesn’t want other psychopaths around as competition.
Try to see past American exceptionalism and understand that not everything in the world is defined by it’s relation to the US.
Osama Bin Laden literally referenced the sanctions against Iraq in his fatwa justifying his attacks on Americans.
But okay. Thank you for your response and your insights.
Bin Laden would say anything to get recruits. Fact is, Al Qaeda had a lot of operations going on against Saddam Hussein.
But okay, believe everything a mass murderer says. That makes you a very enlightened person LOL
You know what, you’re both idiots. The world has more important things to worry about than something that happened 24 years ago. Stop trying to justify and start trying to fix. This is not a game anymore, if it ever was.
The Iraq embargo, for instance, gave rise to Al Qaeda and the eventual destruction of the World Trade Towers.This is a racist narrative that relies on the assumption that Arabs have no control over themselves and “they’re all the same”.
Nah. Even if we assume (which we do) that Arabs, like any other group of people, aren’t all the same, and that they do have (partial) control over themselves, like anyone else … the decisions and fates of a sufficiently large number of them can still be influenced by a sufficiently large external influence, such as revoked access to international trade. Sometimes in chaotic ways. Heck, if billboard ads work in influencing people, it seems difficult to believe more intrusive changes to people’s lifes would have no effect.
Since the article already mentions it, for example Germany between the WWs. The height of reparations was helpful for nationalistic and ultimately again militaristic groups in Germany to gain power. Not as an automatism, not as a justification, simply recognizing a statistical causality. Peace isn’t equal peace. What’s a foul peace worth? We need conditions which support a stable and peaceful coexistence, not plant the seeds for the next war.
Like I simply could not believe he thinks he could add that. Even the most tyrannical warlords of the past didn’t demand that much tribute from people they conquered. The Mongols and Romans would blush at this shit.
