Once again ordinary people in the West are saved from affordable, low-pollution living. And Western companies are saved from having to compete.
That’s catchy, but not entirely true.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general), plus they have cheaper environmental and labour standards… it’s not like there’s a fair market EU companies can compete in without some sort of handicap.
PS: Yes, “western” countries have been playing along with China’s deliberate long term strategy with full awareness of where it would lead, but that’s another story that is both much older and has a much broader scope than the EV industry.
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This is the market place, brah.
…
Free market capitalism
then talk about subsidies or non capitalist country controlling the currency, markets, VCs, etc.
What does that even mean?
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If the US or EU want to keep up, they can sunbsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree
You can’t allow dumping-inducing subsidies without also allowing defensive tariffs, otherwise the richer and more authoritarian countries, which have greater capacity for subsidies and greater ability to concentrate them in specific sectors, will easily kill foreign competition and establish monopolies.
The marketplace brah is a place where, without regulations that maintain a degree of fairness, the rich kills the poor, competition dies off, and consumers are drained to their last cent.
Just think of it: competition is when different actors fight it off and it ends the moment one of the contenders wins.
If you want the fight to go on forever, you don’t want an unregulated market.I feel like we would need to utterly destroy the working class to the point that cheap Chinese EVs would become expensive if we were to compete at the same level. I could be wrong, but how many of the chinese workers are driving brand new evs?
Western manufacturing tends to be much more automation heavy. Chinese manufactures don’t bother with buying a $100k machine that can make a car part when they can just hire 10 guys at $10k/yr to make that same part with a $50 drill press and some hand files.
It’s not that it all strictly balances out, but if we actually gave a shit we could potentially be cost competitive for a lot of price brackets, especially given the costs to move whole ass cars across the Pacific.
Bear in mind these sub $10k Chinese EVs are not something US consumers would really be interested in buying, they are basically tiny car shaped golf carts with extremely minimalist feature sets. Think ‘no audio system at’ all type interiors.
Western manufacturing tends to be much more automation heavy.
bruh https://www.statista.com/chart/31337/new-installations-of-industrial-robots-by-country/
they can subsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree
Meaning that we would either have to increase tax rates or borrow more money? Wow, what a great solution.
Or not subsidize oil and gas to the tune of ~$20 billion/yr and corn at $2.2 billion/yr and redirect that towards EVs.
Yeah I find it a ridiculous parallel I recently saw an article that put a number on Chinese EV subsidies and it seemed extremely low compared to the barrels of money we’ve been giving the oil companies.
Last I checked US prints money like there’s no tomorrow for shit like wars, but as soon as it comes to subsidizing something actually useful all of a sudden the concern trolling starts.
Can you explain to us what the problem with China subsidizing EV manufacturers is exactly? That’s how China chooses to run their economy, and it’s entirely their business. The whole argument for capitalist markets is that they’re supposed to be more competitive last I checked. If that’s not the case then maybe the west should reexamine its assumptions about how an economy should be run.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy) (it’s not limited to EVs)
Dumping is when you sell things below cost to drive competition out and then jack up the price once you achieve a monopoly. What’s happening here is that China simply produces things much cheaper than the Europeans. It’s not limited to EVs.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general)
And that’s a bad thing? Any sensible government is going to subsidise renewable energy and electric vehicles. It makes both economic and environmental sense. Anyone not doing this is an idiot and a climate terrorist.
Subsidizing sales of EVs (ie. I pay for my neighbor’s new EV because I want cleaner air) does make environmental sense.
Subsidizing production does not have the same positive environmental impact, mainly because factories in China pollute more than factories, say, in the EU (due to different environmental laws), but also because moving finished products from China to the “west” obviously pollutes more than moving just those components that would need to be sourced from China anyways (eg. batteries).
As for the “makes economic sense” part… IDK: I guess that mainly depend on your political stance.
Personally, I don’t like that both sales and production subsidies have the effect of moving money from the poor to the rich, but other people may focus on different effects (eg. more production = more jobs) and support subsides.
In case you wonder: my take is that, instead of incentivizing adoption and production of EVs, one should disincentivize internal combustion vehicles by adding taxes to them (which, in a sense, aren’t really taxes but just charging for the very real environmental costs society as a whole will have to pay for your shiny SUV).Anyone not doing this is an idiot and a climate terrorist.
You should really think twice before spewing judgements… and also avoid misusing words like “terrorist” because, when misused this way, it only conveys that you don’t like someone, dulling your message instead of strengthening it.
Subsidizing production does not … from China anyways (eg. batteries).
I’m asking why the EU isn’t subsudising their domestic EV industry and starting a competition in electric propulsion technology. That would benefit everyone, except maybe the oil lobby.
one should disincentivize internal combustion vehicles by adding taxes to them
Why not both? And preferrably better subsidies for public transport / cycles / footpaths, etc.
avoid misusing words like “terrorist” because, when misused this way
If killing a handful of people is terrorism, what would you call trying to kill the entire human race (along with thousands of random other species)? ‘Terrorist’ is, if anything, too mild a word to describe such filth.
It is massively clownish though because as the barrier to entry goes up higher everyone will just switch to micromobility which is built mostly by the Chinese
is this the famous “invisible hand of the market”?
Absolutely
Competition is good! Unless it makes shareholders sad.
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Slave labor is a system in which a person is bought sold and indentured to a master for a substantial duration, often life. Their labor is coerced as property of that master.
That is not how China produces cars. They use highly automated systems and paid workers like everywhere else. While Chinese workers are paid less due to the forces of unequal exchange (a system imposed by the US) and an export economy (a system usually imposed by the US but more of a 4D chess move by China to develop productive forces, with the US gladly taking the deal for exploitation), that is not really why the cars are so much cheaper. It is because China has highly concentrated industry and a much less financialized system.
Speaking about “fair” is amazing in this context. The US is simply trying to protect domestic monopsony industry and to damage Chinese industry. This is a jingoistic and corporate policy.
Chattel slavery is different than indentured servitude. There is no ownership of the indentured servant, but they are forced to work against their will. This is the slavery found in Xinjiang, as well as the US penal system.
I didn’t mention chattel slavery or indentured servitude. There have been slave economies outside the American colonies / the United States.
There is no evidence of slavery in Xinjiang, though there is a network of propagandists tied to Adrian Zenz, the US State Department, and the Australian equivalent who make dubious claims.
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I love how people still peddle US state propaganda unironically.
Already responded to this one comment over.
Except it’s not fair wages though and it’s getting worse not better.
I’m so confused here. I was under the impression that the entire argument for capitalist markets was that they produce cheaper and better goods than is possible to do with central state planning. Yet, here we have the capitalist west complaining that Chinese state driven model if producing goods that western companies are simply not able to compete with. Somebody help me understand.
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If only there were international organizations that could enforce standards. Like the WTO for example.
Politicians be like
Awww what’s da madder widdle capitalist can’t compete with a state run economy??
Ofc. Electric cars are here to save the auto industry, not your health, safety, neighborhood, sustainability, kids, etc. #bancars
This will have the effect of people buying far fewer cars because the options are fewer and far between then moving to micromobility.
Great news for EU auto workers!
oh yeah, the land of “free market” …
PS: Stolen land
Has the EU “champoined” free markets? I assumed that was more of a US buxzword.
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