EDIT: For clarification, I feel that the current situation on the ground in the war (vs. say a year ago) might indicate that an attack on Russia might not result in instant nuclear war, which is what prompted my question. I am well aware of the “instant nuclear Armageddon” opinion.
Serious question. I don’t need to be called stupid. I realize nuclear war is bad. Thanks!
nuclear war
There’s a problem with your premise. NATO (much like the UN) is not a military force of its own. Rather, it’s an agreement between many nations, each with their own militaries. There is no NATO army. There is an agreement of the United States (with its army), the UK (with its army). Germany (with its army), etc.
Each of them could independently invade. They could even negotiate an agreement to invade. But that would have limited impact on NATO. The big thing would be that any invading country loses the agreed upon defenses of the rest.
That’s rather pedantic, but I guess it’s a valid point, so I clarified my question to mean what you already know I was asking.
Technically, NATO has multiple multinational battalion battlegroups at Russia’s border in Poland and the Baltic States, although they consist of only a couple of thousand soldiers.
Assuming no one nukes the world or that all air defenses work, it’d be a mess. There’s no force in human history that can stop NATO in a traditional war. (Maybe the Mongols because they’re always the exception.) But it’s very likely China, North Korea, Iran, and others would be much harder to conquer/occupy at the same time.
It would be widespread suffering in most of the world. The truth is that war is obsolete as a means of accomplishing 99% of political goals. Most of the world would descend into chaos and civil war. Food would be scarce and in times of scarcity, the drunkest, most violent people usually end up in charge. You’d have warlordism in the vast, vast majority of the world.
The natural state of humanity isn’t trade and property rights. It’s warlords offering protection in exchange for whatever they need. No one “wins” wars in 2024. Groups like ISIS would thrive, not law and order.
What makes you think humanity has a natural state?
Yeah, I don’t think we’ve had a real “natural state” since we discovered agriculture. Our whole thing is kinda setting ourselves above/apart from nature
Like I mean after Rome fell the kingdoms that arose were pretty warmongering picking fights with other kingdoms for mearly having a different religion and even when Rome was a thing capital punishment was pretty common and brutal and Rome was a super power for being military strong nations only really started to be widely civil to one another by id say 1880 somewhere in the late 1800s leaving about 1,850 years of constant wars between all nations
Easy way to kill a country: Disrupt the critical infrastructure at multiple points.
Just imagine how crippled we are without AWS, Azure, Cloudflare and Gcloud. Kill electricity, damage water supplies and destroy medication supply and the chaos is perfect.“Without their heads, they’re powerless!”
“Bullets! My only weakness!”
Wait I’m confused. Why would a NATO invasion of Russia destroy the rest of the world? Sure, Russia would be fukd. And if China tried to defend Russia for some insane reason, it would be one heck of a war. But not “entire world falls into anarchy and chaos” levels, that’s absurd.
I think the assumption is China would join in with defending Russia for fear that it would be next and alone. I’ll edit this and add Iran to the assumption that they don’t want to be next and alone either.
China clearing wants more resources and land. China has historical ambitions in Taiwan. China has historical grievances with Japan.
Gotta think of the Mongols.
As long as we’re living in the past, let’s revive the golden horde to deal with Russia
Hmmm. Ok, let’s.
It’s kinda sad to see Mongolia now. Not a lot going on, almost completely dependent on China.
That’s what they want you to think.
Vote for me as your warlord plz!
It is a complete crapshoot because it all fepends on whether thechain of people between Putin and the missles are more interested in going out with him.
What I expect to happen with an invasion:
NATO invades and quickly disables a ton of Russian military objectives. This is because Russia is already flailling with Ukraine due to lack of discipline and outdated tech that theybhave mostly lost already. Plus they can’t do waves of conscript tactics at a moment’s notice.
Putin loses it and tries to launch the missiles knowing it is the end of hos time in power. His military advisors refuse the order and stage a coup, killing Putin and blaming NATO, then fight a half hearted conventional defense for show before negotiating a ceasefire.
But that is just my thought and the risk of a nuclear launch makes it a terrible idea to launch a surprise invasion as some nuclear sub might respond tonthe invasion if their cummunication is cut off.
Considering that Ukraine is advancing inside Russia without so much problems, probably bad, for Russia
If Russia uses nukes, Russia, the state, will cease to exist. The Oligarchs know this, Putin knows this. Only an existential threat to the Oligarchs and Putin would result in a nuclear strike. And that’s why there was no nuclear response to the Kursk incursion so far.
If NATO invades, Russia is doomed. Putin doesn’t care that Russia would still exist after a NATO victory, all he cares about is himself and his legacy. Both of which would be destroyed in a NATO victory.
So he would launch the nukes and watch Russia get wiped off the map, because if he can’t have it, no one can. And at least he would go out with a bang, rather than suiciding in a bunker.
The oligarchs would not be able to prevent it. They might hold the political power, but the military order to launch the nukes comes directly from Putin. The best we could hope for is conscientious officers refusing the order.
If the oligarchs ever thought Putin was legitimately about to use nukes, there would be a coup attempt.
Whether it would successfully stop the nukes is anyone’s guess.
Yep, I agree. But Putin has held on this long while he has royally screwed the Russian economy, and exposed their bumbling military for what it is. The oligarchs would have ousted him already if it was easy.
royally screwed the Russian economy
Has he though? And are they REALLY hurting? I don’t see much evidence especially of the latter.
In addition It’s also not a good idea to nuke a place you intend to occupy.
There’s also a risk that the weapons have been so poorly maintained that they’d fail silently or spectacularly, which would not be great for Russia’s end of the mutually part of mutually assured.
I bet they fizzle. By weight, tritium is one of the most expensive substances on the planet; do you think the people in charge of refilling the nukes have actually been doing so, or just stealing the money?
I do remember hearing that half of the users nukes were decoys that were only found out after the USSR fell so I do wonder if Russia is still bluffing with decoy nukes or if the decoy nukes were more prominent than we thought considering the a amount of fraudulent conventional weapons that the Ukraine war has revealed I suspect that Russia is still heavily dependent on bluffing with decoy nukes and the few that are intended to be real are poorly maintained or poorly made
If Putin get shoot in the head?, the oligarchs don’t like him, and there’s a gigantic amount of people wanting to get his place
Nuclear annihilation. Got nothing to lose at that point
In a conventional war they would crush Russia. Remember when the United States captured Baghdad in a week? It would be like that. But the chances are high that Putin would start launching nukes, and then everyone loses.
I’m not willing to gamble but I don’t think they’d go nuclear. The trick is to offer amnesty and support to everyone but Putin so they have a better option than death for themselves and their families. Loyalty to dictators is always about self preservation.
They would drop tactical nukes on NATO forces.
It’s never going to happen anyways.
They would drop tactical nukes on NATO forces.
Yeah maybe. I was operating under the prevailing idea in this thread that NATO would steamroll through Russia. It’s not something I necessarily agree with.
It’s never going to happen anyways.
Well, quite. This is all just a thought experiment, no one thinks it could happen. NATO is a purely defensive alliance.
A lot of people are focusing on what Russia would do but this would also alarm every single country that isn’t in good terms with NATO and they would also start mobilizing their armies. China, NK, and maybe even the middle east would retaliate if nato was this aggressive.
But I am le tired!
into Russia full force with no warning
That is wrong on so many levels.
Unthinkable.
No more than a wet dream.Because Putin is a “So much for your fucking canoe!” kind of leader. I think most world leaders are if they have the chance. Look what we still say about France for surrendering in WW2, they get plenty of mockery despite being the very nation that helped the US exist in the first place.
So the default is that the worst of the rich and powerful like Putin have the relationship with their citizens and country that a narcissistic, severe domestic abuser has with their partner:
“If I can’t have you, no one will…”
Eric Schlosser’s book, “Command and Control” may be of interest to you. I found it hard to put down.
Daniel Ellsberg’s book, “The Doomsday Machine” might come closer to answering your question, but I have not read it.
For more humorous (but still serious) answers try asking in !noncredibledefense@sh.itjust.works
Short answer: the end of the world.
The resultant nuclear war would kill a good portion of Earth’s population, but it’s likely far more would die from the chaos of civilisation being instantly forced back to the iron age by the EMP frying every silicon transistor.
For anyone interested in some light fiction on the subject, may I direct you to On the Beach by Neville Shute.
The film Threads is also relevant.
