I have a server running Debian with 24 TB of storage. I would ideally like to back up all of it, though much of it is torrents, so only the ones with low seeders really need backed up. I know about the 321 rule but it sounds like it would be expensive. What do you do for backups? Also if anyone uses tape drives for backups I am kinda curious about that potentially for offsite backups in a safe deposit box or something.
TLDR: title.
Edit: You have mentioned borg and rsync, and while borg looks good, I want to go with rsync as it seems to be more actively maintained. I would like to also have my backups encrypted, but rsync doesn’t seem to have that built in. Does anyone know what to do for encrypted backups?
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The software borgbackup does some insane compression.
It is more effective if you backup multiple machines tbh (my 3 linux computers with ~600gb used each get compressed down to a single ~350gb backup, because most of the files are the same programs and data over and over again)
But it might do a decent enough job in your case.
So one of the solutions might be getting a NAS and setting up borgbackup.
You could also get a second one and put it in your parents or best friends home for an offsite backup.
That way you don’t have to buy as large of a drive capacity, but will only have fixed costst (+electricity) instead of ongoing costs for some rented server storage.
I guess that would be about 400$ per such a device, if you get a used office pc and buy new drives for it.
Tape seems to be about half the price per TB, but then you need special reader/writer for it, which are usually connected via SAS and are FUCKING EXPENSIVE (over 4000$ as far as I can see).
It only outscales HDDs in price after like ~600TB
How do you handle the cache invalidation issue with Borg when backing up multiple systems to one repo? For me if I access a Borg repository from multiple computers (and write from each) it has to rebuild the cache each time which can take a long time.
I seperate them by archive name prefix and never had the issue you describe.
Edit: it seems I just never noticed it, but the docu suggest you’re right. Now I am confused myself lol.
big reason why i switched to kopia, borg just doesnt cut it anymore…
Easy: I make a Borg repository not only for a single server but for each directory. In this way if I need a file from nextcloud with an extremely generic name like “config” I only search in there and not sift between 100k similarly named files
I’ve been using Borg and Hetzner Storage Box. There are some small VPS hosts that actually beat Hetzner’s pricing but I have been happy with Hetzner so am staying there for now. With 24TB of data you could also look at Hetzner’s SX64 dedicated server. It has a 6 core Ryzen cpu and 4x 16TB HDD’s for 81 euro/month. You could set it up as RAID 10 which would give you around 29 TiB of usable storage, and then you also have a fairly beefy processor that you can use for transcoding and stuff like that. You don’t want to seed from it since Hetzner is sticky about complaints that they might get.
Tape drives are too expensive unless you have 100s of TB of data, I think. Hard drives are too unreliable. If you leave one in a closet for a few years, there’s a good chance it won’t spin back up.
I have my BD/DVD/CD collection backed up to S3 Glacier. It’s incredibly cheap, offsite, and they worry about the infrastructure. The amount of Hard drive and infrastructure space you’ll need to back up nearly that amount will cost you the about the same give or take. Yes it’ll cost a bit in the event of a catastrophic restore, but if I have something happen at the house, at least I have an offsite backup.
I have just been using Borg with a Hetzner Storagebox as the target. That has the advantage of being off-site and not using up a lot of space since it deduplicates. It also encrypts the backup. It might take a while for the initial backup at 24TB though depending on your connection.
Shit I’ve never heard of Hetzner but their pricing makes de-Googling all my decades of family photos a viable option! Thanks!
I am simple man s I use rsync.
Setup a mergerfs drive pool of about 60 TiB and rsync weekly.
Rsync seems daunting at first but then you realize how powerful and most importantly reliable it is.
It’s important that you try to restore your backups from time to time.
One of the main reasons why I avoid softwares such as Kopia or Borg or Restic or whatever is in fashion:
- they go unmantained
- they are not simple: so many of my frienda struggled restoring backups because you are not dealing with files anymore, but encrypted or compressed blobs
- rsync has an easy mental model and has extremely good defaults
FWIW restic repository format already has two independent implementations. Restic (in Go) and Rustic (Rust), so the chances of both going unmaintained is hopefully pretty low.
One of the main reasons why I avoid softwares such as Kopia or Borg or Restic or whatever is in fashion:
- they go unmantained
- they are not simple: so many of my frienda struggled restoring backups because you are not dealing with files anymore, but encrypted or compressed blobs
- rsync has an easy mental model and has extremely good defaults
Going unmaintained is a non issue, since you can still restore from your backup. It is not like a subscription or proprietary software which is no longer usable when you stop to pay for it or the company owning goes down.
The design of restic is quite simple and easy to understand. The original dev gave multiple talks about it, quite interesting.
Imho the additional features of dedup, encryption and versioning outweigh the points you mentioned by far.
Going unmaintained is a non issue, since you can still restore from your backup. It is not like a subscription or proprietary software which is no longer usable when you stop to pay for it or the company owning goes down.
Until they hit a hard bug or don’t support newer transport formats or scenarios. Also the community dries up eventually
Until they hit a hard bug or don’t support newer transport formats or scenarios. Also the community dries up eventually
That is why you test your backuo. It is unrealiatic, that in a stable software release there is suddenly, after you tested your backup a hard bug which prevents recovery.
Yes unmaintained software will not support new featueres.
I think you misunderstood me. You should not use unmaintained software as your backup tool, but IMO it is no problem when it suddenly goes unmaintained, your backup will most likely still work. Same with any other software, that goes unmaintained, look for an alternative.
It is unrealiatic, that in a stable software release there is suddenly, after you tested your backup a hard bug which prevents recovery.
How is unrealistic? Think of this:
- day 1: you backup your files, test the backup and everything is fine
- day 2: you store a new file that triggers a bug in the compression/encryption algorithm of whatever software you use, now backups are corrupted at least for this file Unless you test every backup you do, and consequently can’t backup fast enough, I don’t see how you can predict that future files and situations won’t trigger bugs in a software
We talk about software that is considered stable. That has verification checks for the backup. Used by thousands of ppl. It is unrealistic.
I was heavily considering borg but I just looked up rsync and it looks like everything I need. Thank you.
Edit: Actually encryption would also be nice. Is there any way to do that with rsync?
Yes. You compose a crypted vault over your storage vault. I pay about $1/mo for B2 Backblaze. Around 150G last I checked.
what other people are saying, is that you rsync over an encrypted file system or other type of storages. What are your backup targets? in my case I own the disks so I use LUKS partition -> ext4 -> mergerfs to end up with a single volume I can mount on a folder
Two questions, and please don’t take it as criticism, I am just curious about rsync but also one point you make.
“They go unmaintained” seeing as Borg is in use for quite some time, how does this look safer for rsync? For me it looks like the risk for that is similar, but I might not know background of development for these.
Second question more something I am asking myself, a lot of people seem to use rsync for backing up, but it is not incremental backup, or is it? I saw some mention of a “time machine” like implementation of rsync, but then we are again at your argument it might go unmaintained as its a separate niche implementation, or does that main rsync support incremental backup? If not, are you not missing that, how do you deal with it when just a file changes? New copy of it being transferred or somehow else?
how does this look safer for rsync? For me it looks like the risk for that is similar, but I might not know background of development for these.
Rsync is available out of the box in most linux distro and is used widely not only for backups, but a lot of other things, such as repository updates and transfers from file hosts. This means a lot more people are interested in it. Also the implementation, looking at the source code, is cleaner and easier to understand.
how do you deal with it when just a file changes?
I think you should consider that not all files are equal. Rsync for me is great because I end up with a bunch of disks that contain an exact copy of the files I have on my own server. Those files don’t change frequently, they are movies, pictures, songs and so on.
Other files such as code, configuration, files on my smartphone, etc… are backup up differently. I use git for most stuff that fits its model, syncthing for my temporary folders and my mobile phone.
Not every file can suit the same backup model. I trust that files that get corrupted or lost are in my weekly rsync backup. A configuration file I messed up two minutes ago is on git.
Thanks for elaborating, the part about the pictures and movies not changing makes a lot of sense actually. Thanks for sharing!
One method depends on your storage provider. Rsync may have incremental snapshots, but I haven’t looked because my storage provider has it.
Sometimes a separate tool like rsnapshot (but probably not rsnapshot itself as I dont think its hard links interact well with rsync) might be used to manage snapshots locally that are then rsynced.
On to storage providers or back ends. I use B2 Backblaze configured to never delete. When a file changes it uploads the new version and renames the old version with a timestamp and hides it. Rsync has tools to recover the old file versions or delete any history. Again, it only uploads the changed files so its not full snapshots.
I backup my /home folder on my PC to my NAS using restic (used to use borg, but restic is more flexible). I backup somewhat important data to an external SSD on a weekly basis and very important data to cloud storage on a nightly basis. I don’t backup my *arr media at all (unless you count the automated snapshots on my NAS), as it’s not really important to me and can simply be redownloaded in most cases.
So I don’t and wouldn’t apply the 321 rule to all data as it’s simply too expensive for the amount of data I have and it’d take months to upload with my non-fiber internet connection. But you should definitely apply it to data that’s important to you.
I have a machine at my parents’ house that has a single 20TB drive in it. I’ll log in once in a while and initiate an rsync to bring that up to current with my RAID at home. The specific reason I do it manually is in case there’s a ransomware attack. I won’t copy bad data. That’s also the reason I start it from the backup machine. The main machine doesn’t connect, the backup machine does, so ransomware wouldn’t cross that virtual boundary.
I would like to replicate your setup in the future. How do you connect between the two machines, using tailscale or something like that?
It’s just over ssh. They’ve both got their own subdomains.
My use case is basically the same as yours.
I do restic to Wasabi.
I’ve been on restic for a few years now and have never had an issue. I started out using Google Drive for the backend but that was though my college which went away eventually so I swapped over to Wasabi but I’m considering B2.
It’s actively maintained and encrypted.
There are a handful of backends it supports but can be extended by writing to an rclone backend.
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And no, I have not tested it because I don’t know how I’m actually supposed to do that.
depends on what you backup and how.
if it’s just “dumb” files (videos, music pictures etc.), just retrieve them from your backups and check if you can open the files.
complex stuff? probably try to rebuild the complex stuff from a backup and check if it works as expected and is in the state you expect it to be in. how to do that really depends on the complex stuff.
i’d guess for most people it’s enough to make sure to backup dumb files and configurations, so they can rebuild their stuff rather than being able to restore a complex system in exactly the same state it was in before bad things happened.
I might be crazy but I have a 20TB WD Red Pro in a padded, water proof, locking, case that I take a full backup on and then drive it over to a family members 30m away once a month or so.
It’s a full encrypted backup of all my important stuff in a relatively different geographic location.
All of my VM data backs up hourly to my NAS as well. Which then gets backed up onto the large drive monthly.
Monthly granularity isn’t that good to be fair but it’s better than nothing. I should probably back up the more important rapidly changing stuff online daily.
to your edit: rsync is a tool to copy/move files, borg is a backup utility. there are scripts that use rsync to create proper backups, but if you want to go by ‘more actively maintained’ you should look into how these scripts are maintained, not rsync itself.
on the other hand - borg is actively maintained, there even are releases in the last two days, one stable and one beta. it also fulfills your ‘encrypted backup’ requirement and has a versioned backups built in.
tl;dr comparing borg backup and rsync is comparing apples and orangesYour right, I’m sold.
I use Kopia to backup all personal data (nextcloud, immich, configs, etc) daily to another disk in the same server and also to backblaze B2. Its not proper 321 but feels good enough. I dont backup downloadable content because its expensive
Important stuff (about 150G) is synced to all my machines and a b2 Backblaze bucket.
I have a rented seed box for those low seeder torrents.
The stuff I can download again is only on a mirrored lvm pool with an lvmcache. I don’t have any redundancy for my monerod data which is on an nvme.
I’m moving towards an immutable OS with 30 days of snapshots. While not the main reason, it does push one to practicing better sync habits.
Anything I can download again doesn’t get backup, but it sits on a RAID-1. I am ok at losing it due to carelessness but not due to a broken disk. I try to be carefully when messing with it and that’s enough, I can always download again.
Anything like photos notes personal files and such gets backedup via restic to a disk mounted to the other side of the house. Offsite backup i am thinking about it, but not really got to it yet. Been lucky all this time.
From 10tb of stuff, the totality of my backupped stuff amount to 700gb. Since 90% of are photos, the backup size is about 700gb too. The actually part of that 700gb that changes (text files, documents…) amount to negligible. The photos never change, at most grow a bit over time.
For offsite I backup to aws Glacier. Cheap to store expensive to retrieve. When the house burns down I’ll still have the photos somewhere and at that point the cost is negligible compared to losing them since it really is worst case scenario.
For offsite I backup to aws Glacier. Cheap to store expensive to retrieve. When the house burns down I’ll still have the photos somewhere and at that point the cost is negligible compared to losing them since it really is worst case scenario.
What I use is Borg. I use Borg to backup the server to a local NAS. Then I have a NAS at my grand parents house which I use to store the backups of the NAS it self.
